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KathleenGee
Guest
Doesn’t bringing in expressions of various forms of expressions of faith demonstrate our humanity encountering the divine? So long as the art and environment express the truth of Who Jesus is…what Church is…
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
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KathleenGee
Guest
Ooh…what time did I write that/???
We just came back in hospital after seeing our son…at the crossroads…
We just came back in hospital after seeing our son…at the crossroads…
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Publisher
Guest
Friend, I was not addressing your personal mode of worship…“FOR ME” these images are a distraction…if they bring you closer to the Light and enhance your experience with God, I rejoice with you…but they are distractions for me.
How is one to give their opinion on the matter if one does not addres the question posed…“Icons & statues- A stumbling block?” Yes, for me, they are a “stumbling block” and I receive no “comfort” in their presence.
Peace to you friend.
P
Publisher
Guest
LOL…we may “sit silently in a bare room”…but we are actively engaged in worship…we are in the Presence communing with the Eternal and are joined to one another in the Living Silence…in Meeting I am unaware of the “bare room”…I am in a place of Light and Peace as I seek to listen to the Risen Christ in our midst as He ministers to His People.
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shaky
Guest
They are not seeing Cornelius Venerating Peter as a God in that Scripture. Only Just Venerating him thinking he was somebody special appointed by God. because a angel told Cornelius about peter.Actually, Peter stopped Cornelius from bowing down to him as a god - but Peter accepted veneration, very humbly, and for the glory of God, when people were coming to him to be cured of their diseases. He always made it very clear that it was God working through him, and we also understand that it is God who works through the Saints, and allows them to be able to do the things that they do.
In Heaven, there is great freedom and great power that comes from God, but that is enjoyed by the Saints, and they are able to make use of their power and freedom for our benefit here on earth. It would be wrong to imagine that in Heaven, the Saints have no power, or that they are blind and deaf, or that they don’t care about us at all - Heaven is a condition of being where we can do and know all things.
Images of the Saints can be likened to the images we carry around in our wallets and put up in our homes, of our family members and close friends - we like to have these pictures of people that we love, and who also love us.
If someone is absent for a long time, or has died, it is not uncommon for people to kiss the picture of their loved one from time to time, or on certain occasions, such as their birthday, or their anniversary of death. If someone is kissing an icon of a Saint, surely it is out of love, and not because the person thinks that the Saint is a god. (Most Catholics would laugh at you if you said that any Saint was a god - this is not something that anybody believes.)
We can pray to the Saints and ask them to intercede for us, in the same way that a child might ask an older brother or sister to intercede for him with his parents, if he has a very special request to ask of them - or in the same way that a junior employee might ask a manager to intercede for him with the boss, if he has a particular special request that he needs to make.
When you look at Acts 10:25 the Greek word used for worship is {Prosekunesen} which is Frawn, Crouch Prostrate Oneself in Homage, do Reverence, adore, worship.
True worship to the divine nature alone who is God. The Greek word used is {latreia}
Even the angel in revelation would not accept worship in {Revelation 19:10} the Greek word used here is {Proskunesia} which is the same meaning as {Prosekunesen}
When you read {Luke 4:8} where the devil tried the get Jesus to bow down and worship him. Jesus said it is written you shall worship the lord your God and serve him only. The Greek word for worship is {Proskuneseis} which still means the same thing. why there is slight difference in the Greek spelling i don’t know. but it all comes under the same category and means the same thing.
The diciples worshiped Jesus and Jesus eccepted this worship {matthew 28:9} and the Greek word was {Prosekunesan} which still means the same thing.
So protestants see no problem doing reverence to a Icon of Jesus. But doing reverence to a Icon of any Saint is the problem for them. Also bowing down doing reverence to the Pope in the Roman church or Patriachs in the Orthodox church would be a problem.
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pipper
Guest
That’s great but it won’t work with me. Since I had a stroke 6 years ago and grew up with ADA, I fear that silent meditation would just make me sleep. I just can’t think deep thoughts and concentrate. The same thing would happen in a comtemplative Catholic religious community.
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KathleenGee
Guest
I am one of those that find praying the rosary very difficult.
The rosary has 4 mysteries now…regarding the life of Christ. First, Joyful, begin with Christ within the womb of Mary at the Annunciation. We are supposed to reflect on the topic of each mystery, but I tend to fall asleep real fast. I need to look at visual holy pictures or statues to keep my mind focused. We all know what the story is behind the visual.
We use icons and other forms as visual reflections. I also think they add to the humanity of the Church. I do not understand at all why someone would claiming to be a Christian would have an aversion to seeing a crucifix. I would rather see a crucifix venerated in public than all these billboards advertising things. The crucifix is a powerful sacramental, the divine to the carnate…I have a beautiful one in my living room, and in every bedroom.
I even still have the chalk marks above my entrance…from the feast day of the Epiphany…blessed chalk to bring home, and write the blessings from the priest over our entrance. I use sacramentals to bless my home. I have holy water in the home.
My parish custodian told me in his rural neighborhood, considered a very safe area, is now being hit by all sorts of burglars because of the economy. Our neighbor gets up early in the morning for his job. He said he saw men dressed in black coming in to our neighborhood from the woods behind my house trying to get into houses. I pray to the Lord to protect my neighbors…I am even thinking of taking my blessed oil and going for a nice walk and encircling my entire neighborhood…from a satelleite, it looks like our neighborhood is like a large oval area against the hill here.
Crucifixes are used in exorcisms as well…you always see people go to a priest for deliverance.
The rosary has 4 mysteries now…regarding the life of Christ. First, Joyful, begin with Christ within the womb of Mary at the Annunciation. We are supposed to reflect on the topic of each mystery, but I tend to fall asleep real fast. I need to look at visual holy pictures or statues to keep my mind focused. We all know what the story is behind the visual.
We use icons and other forms as visual reflections. I also think they add to the humanity of the Church. I do not understand at all why someone would claiming to be a Christian would have an aversion to seeing a crucifix. I would rather see a crucifix venerated in public than all these billboards advertising things. The crucifix is a powerful sacramental, the divine to the carnate…I have a beautiful one in my living room, and in every bedroom.
I even still have the chalk marks above my entrance…from the feast day of the Epiphany…blessed chalk to bring home, and write the blessings from the priest over our entrance. I use sacramentals to bless my home. I have holy water in the home.
My parish custodian told me in his rural neighborhood, considered a very safe area, is now being hit by all sorts of burglars because of the economy. Our neighbor gets up early in the morning for his job. He said he saw men dressed in black coming in to our neighborhood from the woods behind my house trying to get into houses. I pray to the Lord to protect my neighbors…I am even thinking of taking my blessed oil and going for a nice walk and encircling my entire neighborhood…from a satelleite, it looks like our neighborhood is like a large oval area against the hill here.
Crucifixes are used in exorcisms as well…you always see people go to a priest for deliverance.
P
Publisher
Guest
Isn’t it great that in God’s marvelous economy we are able to find a place and style to worship that meets our needs?That’s great but it won’t work with me. Since I had a stroke 6 years ago and grew up with ADA, I fear that silent meditation would just make me sleep. I just can’t think deep thoughts and concentrate. The same thing would happen in a comtemplative Catholic religious community.
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
Well, I certainly believe that having a Cross, a religious image, and a copy of the Scriptures in a room is important and they reflect the presence of God, to be sure!
I’ve been in homes where there were, shall we say, “spirit disturbances,” and I saw how the Cross, the Bible and blessed water, when applied together with praye, got rid of the disturbance (this has happened to me four times in my life so far - I hope it doesn’t happen again, but I’m ready if it does).
Yes, the Cross, the Scriptures et al. do protect us when we carry/honour them with faith in the Lord Jesus.
Of that I have no doubt and would NEVER entertain being without them! Neither should you, Friend, ever consider being without them.
Alex
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
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KathleenGee
Guest
I have to find our Michael.
He is a Catholic and from Nigeria. He was seeing things in the Scriptures we missed…that is how it goes…
He is the one that saw someone in the Acts carrying a picture of St. Jude…and mentioned, if I recall, one or two more examples from the New Testament in the earliest practice of sacramentals…there are the frescos in the ancient underground Roman cemeteries…
Icons and statues and other forms of visual expressions of faith just simply reveal our humanity not idols.
He is a Catholic and from Nigeria. He was seeing things in the Scriptures we missed…that is how it goes…
He is the one that saw someone in the Acts carrying a picture of St. Jude…and mentioned, if I recall, one or two more examples from the New Testament in the earliest practice of sacramentals…there are the frescos in the ancient underground Roman cemeteries…
Icons and statues and other forms of visual expressions of faith just simply reveal our humanity not idols.
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
Dear Friends,
The Seventh Ecumenical Council laid down the theology of the veneration of icons/images on the basis that this is a reflection on the truth of the Incarnation of OLGS Jesus Christ.
The Divine Son of God came down and became Man for us in the womb of the Most Holy Virgin Mary. He was seen, as a baby he was picked up and carried - yes, God could be carried by those He made (I actually get tearful whenever I reflect on this . . .).
The veneration shown to images go to the Prototype i.e. whom the image represents.
On a cultural level, I have always heard from former Buddhists, Hindus etc. that such images inclined them toward Catholicism. Tibetans and others also have prayerbeads, monasticism and other traditions - just because they are pagan, doesn’t mean they have everything wrong!
In Egypt, Greek missionaries there marvelled at the TAU crosses and told them that God has already revealed to them the Cross of His Son! That helped convert THOUSANDS to the Christian faith. Christianity should never be “anti-cultural” - it should be about transforming human culture and redirecting it toward God and Christ.
I’ve also met Evangelicals who have adapted Yoga to Christianity - what’s wrong with that? They sit and meditate on a Gospel verse or on a Cross. There are Christian Zen temples that do the same.
In fact, if we took an objective look at all our “Christian” traditions, we would realize that the vast majority of them are taken over from pre-Christian ones.
Again, nothing wrong with that. It is BECAUSE western Christianity has difficulty separating the Gospel message from the Western cultural framework in which it has been cast for too long that is the problem with getting it out to the rest of the world.
When the Tibetan Evangelical critiqued Tibetan Buddhist traditions, he should realize that when he tells Tibetans that, he is coming across simply as a Western cultural chauvinist . . .
I have personally adopted the Tibetan shawl called the “Katah” together with their prayer beads for the Jesus Prayer, the Vajra and Dorje and some other things - while others have adopted much more.
It was the great Italian Jesuit Roberto DiNobili who adapted the Hindu culture and walked about as a “Sunnyasi” or holy man. He insisted on wearing the long three-stranded string over his shoulder as the Hindus do - but in honour of the Holy Trinity.
He was recalled to Rome to answer certain charges for these things, but the Pope of the day completely exonerated him.
And let us also remember Fr. Matteo Ricci who so entered the Chinese cultural experience that the Dragon Emperor gave permission for him to be buried, as a foreigner, in Chinese soil.
That is what acculturation is all about! Those missionaries understood fully what Christ meant when he said, “Make disciples of all NATIONS.”
Alex
The Seventh Ecumenical Council laid down the theology of the veneration of icons/images on the basis that this is a reflection on the truth of the Incarnation of OLGS Jesus Christ.
The Divine Son of God came down and became Man for us in the womb of the Most Holy Virgin Mary. He was seen, as a baby he was picked up and carried - yes, God could be carried by those He made (I actually get tearful whenever I reflect on this . . .).
The veneration shown to images go to the Prototype i.e. whom the image represents.
On a cultural level, I have always heard from former Buddhists, Hindus etc. that such images inclined them toward Catholicism. Tibetans and others also have prayerbeads, monasticism and other traditions - just because they are pagan, doesn’t mean they have everything wrong!
In Egypt, Greek missionaries there marvelled at the TAU crosses and told them that God has already revealed to them the Cross of His Son! That helped convert THOUSANDS to the Christian faith. Christianity should never be “anti-cultural” - it should be about transforming human culture and redirecting it toward God and Christ.
I’ve also met Evangelicals who have adapted Yoga to Christianity - what’s wrong with that? They sit and meditate on a Gospel verse or on a Cross. There are Christian Zen temples that do the same.
In fact, if we took an objective look at all our “Christian” traditions, we would realize that the vast majority of them are taken over from pre-Christian ones.
Again, nothing wrong with that. It is BECAUSE western Christianity has difficulty separating the Gospel message from the Western cultural framework in which it has been cast for too long that is the problem with getting it out to the rest of the world.
When the Tibetan Evangelical critiqued Tibetan Buddhist traditions, he should realize that when he tells Tibetans that, he is coming across simply as a Western cultural chauvinist . . .
I have personally adopted the Tibetan shawl called the “Katah” together with their prayer beads for the Jesus Prayer, the Vajra and Dorje and some other things - while others have adopted much more.
It was the great Italian Jesuit Roberto DiNobili who adapted the Hindu culture and walked about as a “Sunnyasi” or holy man. He insisted on wearing the long three-stranded string over his shoulder as the Hindus do - but in honour of the Holy Trinity.
He was recalled to Rome to answer certain charges for these things, but the Pope of the day completely exonerated him.
And let us also remember Fr. Matteo Ricci who so entered the Chinese cultural experience that the Dragon Emperor gave permission for him to be buried, as a foreigner, in Chinese soil.
That is what acculturation is all about! Those missionaries understood fully what Christ meant when he said, “Make disciples of all NATIONS.”
Alex
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KathleenGee
Guest
Another take on the Council of Nicea was that people by then were loosing sight of Christ’s humanity…
It is easier for some people to believe in Christ as God…but not as True Man…and all the implications that religious expression of humanity with the divine is not a form of idolatry, but rather the reflection of our relationship with Christ – He the divine united with our humanity.
Christ perfects our humanity and all of creation. It was through Christ that the Heavenly Father created the universe, this world that we live in. Through Christ, all is restored, and that is the intent behind the use of sacramentals, icons, statues…they are visual forms of catechesis, the authentic Christian life, and visuals to help aid in meditating on the life of Christ.
It is easier for some people to believe in Christ as God…but not as True Man…and all the implications that religious expression of humanity with the divine is not a form of idolatry, but rather the reflection of our relationship with Christ – He the divine united with our humanity.
Christ perfects our humanity and all of creation. It was through Christ that the Heavenly Father created the universe, this world that we live in. Through Christ, all is restored, and that is the intent behind the use of sacramentals, icons, statues…they are visual forms of catechesis, the authentic Christian life, and visuals to help aid in meditating on the life of Christ.
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Curious_Hobbit
Guest
I don’t know if anyone’s mentioned this or not, but I think it’s worth mentioning. In Exodus, God told Moses and the Israelites to put 2 statues of Cherubim (angels) on the Ark of the Covenant facing each other. I think this suggest that God isn’t anti-statue. I think we can all agree that those 2 statues on the covenant didn’t serve the same purpose as the Golden Calf statue.
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pipper
Guest
YES indeedy.Isn’t it great that in God’s marvelous economy we are able to find a place and style to worship that meets our needs?
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KathleenGee
Guest
Curious Hobbit,
Yes, our Lord instructed Moses on every detail of His temple…every detail of worship, every detail of the priesthood even to the design work of the vestments, such as the pomegranets symbolizing the Holy Spirit. He had two cherubs facing the Mercy Seat.
So when it comes to worship, we as Catholics believe that Our Lord continued what He wanted for worship…and that was at the Banquet Table, where we are made one and nurture on His Eucharist.
Yes, our Lord instructed Moses on every detail of His temple…every detail of worship, every detail of the priesthood even to the design work of the vestments, such as the pomegranets symbolizing the Holy Spirit. He had two cherubs facing the Mercy Seat.
So when it comes to worship, we as Catholics believe that Our Lord continued what He wanted for worship…and that was at the Banquet Table, where we are made one and nurture on His Eucharist.
C
Curious_Hobbit
Guest
I agree Kathleen. I think that’s something that could help protestant Christians better understand when they see many statues of saints, angels, Mary, etc. in Catholic churches.
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
In my experience, Protestants who see images, statues and icons in our churches just LOVE them!
One Protestant friend just couldn’t take her eyes off the icons in my church! She will now only accept icons as gifts . . .
We once had a major event in our parish and Protestant/Lutheran ministers came. They kept looking up at the icons as well.
My wife and I stayed in Paris near the great Church of St Germaine des Pres (in which 17 Blessed Martyr Priests were shot during the French Revolution).
We attended a concert there at night and the church was lit up.
The icons from the fifth or sixth centuries all lit up. If one never knew the Bible, one could get a quick education on salvation history just by looking at the icons . . .
(I kept lighting candles to the statue of Our Lady holding a fleur de lys - one lady tersely said to me, “How many candles are you going to light??” I told her, “Our Lady can never have enough!” )
Alex
One Protestant friend just couldn’t take her eyes off the icons in my church! She will now only accept icons as gifts . . .
We once had a major event in our parish and Protestant/Lutheran ministers came. They kept looking up at the icons as well.
My wife and I stayed in Paris near the great Church of St Germaine des Pres (in which 17 Blessed Martyr Priests were shot during the French Revolution).
We attended a concert there at night and the church was lit up.
The icons from the fifth or sixth centuries all lit up. If one never knew the Bible, one could get a quick education on salvation history just by looking at the icons . . .
(I kept lighting candles to the statue of Our Lady holding a fleur de lys - one lady tersely said to me, “How many candles are you going to light??” I told her, “Our Lady can never have enough!”
)Alex
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KathleenGee
Guest
The Bible has shown to us that the Lord wants us to worship Him the way He wants…and He draws very much from our humanity.
Today the sacrificial altar of the Old Testament has been replaced by the Lord’s Banquet Table of the Mass.
Today the sacrificial altar of the Old Testament has been replaced by the Lord’s Banquet Table of the Mass.
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