Icons & statues - A stumbling block?

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Alexander_Roman said:
(I kept lighting candles to the statue of Our Lady holding a fleur de lys - one lady tersely said to me, “How many candles are you going to light??” I told her, “Our Lady can never have enough!” 🙂 )

Alex
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Maybe she was hoping to get to light one, too? 😉
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
Classic case of candle envy! 😃
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🙂

The kids at our parish love to out-do each other in candle lighting - one kid stole a whole roll of quarters from his parents so that he could get to light 40 candles! They were furious, of course. :rolleyes:
 
tsering said:
Dear Christians:

Even though icons & statues are permitted as objects of veneration, do you think that they may be a stumbling block for some to come to the True Faith?

Being an ex-missionary in a predominantly Buddhist and/or Taoist nation, I have seen many man made images and statues used for the so called profitable purposes of meditation and merit.

After asking a friend (who is an ex-Tibetan Buddhist monk now turned evangelist for Christ) what he thought of the Tibetan Catholic community - he stated they looked too much like the religion he left to follow Christ. “They worship Mary, they have statues they worship, their monks are like Buddhist monks, they believe in merits, etc.” I asked if maybe he misunderstood them by saying they “worship” Mary and maybe it’s okay to honor her for her very special role in God’s plan of redemption, he said that was good, but that to him it looks like they’re worshiping her and the statues in their Churches.

Once when having a very intense conversation with an Israeli, he stated that Muslims were better than Christians, because at least Muslims still believed God was one and that they didn’t allow idols and images for worship.

This has also been (other than the trinity) a major objection of Muslims who I’ve tried to share the Gospel with during my travels.

Personally, I know the argument that they are not worshiped and are like pictures of passed away family members, but hey, Chinese also burn incense in front of passed away family members and call it ancestor worship.

If you asked a Buddhist, a Taoist, a Chinese, a Hindu if they really worshiped the image…they would say of course not. I would think some Hindus would say they don’t worship the statue, but the god it represents. But the Buddhist or Taoists or Chinese would say they were not worshiping the person it represented, but instead reflecting on that persons merits and meditating on their life for more personal merits.
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Interesting discussion. I probably dont have time to take it up, but would like to add my thoughts here. If someone else has said any of this then my apologies for repeating.

Christ is a stumbling block.:

Isa 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Think of all the ways that Christ is a stumbling block:
  1. In scripture he essentially claimed to be God. For the Jews God cannot be a man.Although they are correct, they failed to grasp the nuance of the idea that Jesus is God. Man can be God if God chose to be man.
  2. The idea that christians worshippped a man is a stumbling block. However the fact is, if God becomes man, are we to not worship Him?
  3. The trinty is a stumbling block. To the jews and islam, they see 3 divine persons and thus say we are worshipping 3 Gods. But we answer, they are not 3 Gods. The are ONE GOD but three persons.
  4. The early christians worshipping an unseen God was a stumbling block to early greeks as they accused the christians of being athiest.
  5. The early christians eucharist was a stumbling block because the world at that time accused them of cannibalism.
  6. To day the catholic faith is that same stumbling block. We adore the eucharist and we are called idolaters. But we answer. If jesus is present then we are not worshipping the bread, we are worshipping him.
  7. In essence, because the Catholic Church walks in the authority that Christ gave it, the church is a stumbling block.
Christ was the stumbling block. The disciple is not greater than His master but like Him. The question people must ask themselves is, why are they stumbled.

Jeff
 
jmcrae said:
Maybe she was hoping to get to light one, too? 😉
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I didn’t think of it that way . . . thank you . . .:o

Or it could have been that she was just one of those “Marian Minimalists.”

Lighting candles at European shrines is a great way to get to know people too! While in Barcelona, I bought a large candle to light before the Crucifix of the Black Christ of Lepanto.

An elderly lady saw me fiddling about with it and came up to me to show me how to light it without burning any fingers.

Sometimes it is good to just let someone take over!

Alex
 
jmcrae said:
🙂

The kids at our parish love to out-do each other in candle lighting - one kid stole a whole roll of quarters from his parents so that he could get to light 40 candles! They were furious, of course. :rolleyes:
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Candles are a very important part of one’s devotion in the Orthodox Churches especially. I was at a friend’s ordination as an Orthodox priest (a three hour standing ceremony - and I arrived late!). They had quite the store of candles of all sizes in the back and people were buying as many candles as they could afford (one fellow just bundled his all up like so many wood sticks). One then places them at the icons one especially venerates, prays and the like. Children were going from icon to icon, kissing them with the Sign of the Cross, and placing candles.

There’s an undoubted quiet power and peacefulness when praying near burning candles, in church and at home (we also burn incense at home and bless children with it).

Alex
 
Matorin said:
Oh? Has it now?
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Yes - Jesus’ Sacrifice, which is commemorated on the Altar with the thanksgiving sacrifice of bread and wine (called “Eucharist” which is Greek for “Thanksgiving”), is the final sacrifice for sins. 🙂
 
👍
jmcrae said:
Yes - Jesus’ Sacrifice, which is commemorated on the Altar with the thanksgiving sacrifice of bread and wine (called “Eucharist” which is Greek for “Thanksgiving”), is the final sacrifice for sins. 🙂
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Constantine…

There it is…the beginning of the development of sacramentals! Thanks…this was the quote drawn from the Nigerian Catholic. He also brought up another passage in the Acts, if I recall correctly, on those carrying a picture of St. Jude…

These are humans seeking to bring God and His blessings into the things of every day life…Just like Christ did when He chose ordinary bread and wine to become His body and blood…
 
KathleenGee said:
Constantine…

There it is…the beginning of the development of sacramentals! Thanks…this was the quote drawn from the Nigerian Catholic. He also brought up another passage in the Acts, if I recall correctly, on those carrying a picture of St. Jude…

These are humans seeking to bring God and His blessings into the things of every day life…Just like Christ did when He chose ordinary bread and wine to become His body and blood…
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From my understanding there is nothing in the bible about any Icon. Can you exactly show me where?
From what i have been studying so far: The earliest recorded writings about Icons was around 250AD. There were disagreements in the early church about the use of Icons.
I think it was canonized at a later date and you can read about it in the 7 ecumenical councils. I think its in the second ecumenical council.
Its seems there are additional Traditional Church teachings that have to be taken into consideration that are not in the bible. IF not ANATHMA:eek:
 
Icons are of the Eastern Orthodox tradition…we are having icons installed in my church.

They are most intensely symbolic. Give me some time and I will come back and explain to you what they mean.

Shaky,

This looks like a good site to begin…www.troparia.com/icons.htm

There is an article giving the background of icons…
www.coptic.net/articles/CopticIcons.txt

These other forms people draw on to bring them closer to God.
 
I find it fascinating how Catholics are co-opting iconography from the Orthodox. This seems to be happening in several parishes I’ve heard about. Why the departure from Western art and the sudden fascination with the Eastern art? I personally like the Eastern art A LOT more than Roman Catholic art save the pieta and a few exquisite pieces. I just wonder why Catholics are suddenly so into Eastern art when they reject the Eastern Orthodox in so many ways with regard to polity, etc.?
KathleenGee said:
Icons are of the Eastern Orthodox tradition…we are having icons installed in my church.

They are most intensely symbolic. Give me some time and I will come back and explain to you what they mean.

Shaky,

This looks like a good site to begin…www.troparia.com/icons.htm

There is an article giving the background of icons…
www.coptic.net/articles/CopticIcons.txt

These other forms people draw on to bring them closer to God.
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I am not so inclined…our church building is new…NW colors, white walls, concrete gray floors and columns, light colored wood.

We had a donor come forth to provide funding for the work. The pastor gave us several bulletins in a series explaining what icons are about, even the elongation of figures has symbolism, even the colors and type of paint used. We are replacing this rustic statue of Christ on the altar, quite contemporary, with the Crucified Lord on the cross, and then two separate icons on either side of Mary and St. John the Evangelist. We will have an icon of the Resurrected Lord to the left of that on a separate but facing wall. And then on the other side, an icon of the Angel Gabriel with Mary at the conception of Christ at the Annunciation.

The gold paint and colors match the interior of the church. The artist wanted us to pray for her as she painted, so that our parish prayers would be involved as well. She painted the icons here in the church. So we saw the development. They were put up on a wall…we got to see it. And what was really nice was that they reflected color into the church. So it ended up all blending very well.

We have an icon of Christ, the Incarnate Word in our chapel. Another of Mary, Theotokis. I tried to find the bulletins last night as they were written out very simply but concisely but couldn’t find them to download.

I like the natural Latin style. But will use this opportunity to study iconography more, and subsequently Orthodoxy.
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
I find it fascinating how Catholics are co-opting iconography from the Orthodox. This seems to be happening in several parishes I’ve heard about. Why the departure from Western art and the sudden fascination with the Eastern art? I personally like the Eastern art A LOT more than Roman Catholic art save the pieta and a few exquisite pieces. I just wonder why Catholics are suddenly so into Eastern art when they reject the Eastern Orthodox in so many ways with regard to polity, etc.?
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We like the art, but not so much that we would trade in our beloved Pope for it. Fortunately, it’s not that expensive to get. 😃
 
Trading popes for artwork would seem an odd exchange of goods 😛 While I’m not a real big fan of the current one, John Paul II, in my opinion, was a TREASURE! 👍
jmcrae said:
We like the art, but not so much that we would trade in our beloved Pope for it. Fortunately, it’s not that expensive to get. 😃
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gurneyhalleck1 said:
I find it fascinating how Catholics are co-opting iconography from the Orthodox. This seems to be happening in several parishes I’ve heard about. Why the departure from Western art and the sudden fascination with the Eastern art? I personally like the Eastern art A LOT more than Roman Catholic art save the pieta and a few exquisite pieces. I just wonder why Catholics are suddenly so into Eastern art when they reject the Eastern Orthodox in so many ways with regard to polity, etc.?
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Gurney, actually the Western church has used icons for some time, they are just less popular than statues.

Two of them occur to me now. Our Lady of Perpetual Help, and Our Lady of Guadalupe.
 
Correct. St. Mary’s in my town has one of both. But apart from those two, let’s face it, iconography is an Orthodox thing and Catholics are falling in love with their artistic style of expressing the divine and holy. I happen to prefer, as stated earlier, the Eastern arts any day to the West. But theologically speaking, I’m a child of the West, of an Augustinian mold. I’m eclectic! 😛
pipper said:
Gurney, actually the Western church has used icons for some time, they are just less popular than statues.

Two of them occur to me now. Our Lady of Perpetual Help, and Our Lady of Guadalupe.
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