ID KO'd in Pennsylvania

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wanerious:
I would be shocked at anyone of good conscience who, being familiar with the case, could sympathize with the defense, Catholic or no. They were in the wrong and got what they deserved.
If God created human directly but you attributed his creation to monkeys, how would he feel?
If God hadn’t created human directly but you attributed this to Himself, how would he feel?
God can create the universe why he just can’t create humans directly to boost the linkage between human and God. Evolution to Christians/Jews/Muslems is like one can conceive naturally but still choose IVF.
 
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Lurch104:
I am absolutely shocked that supposed Catholics can be cheering this decision.
What’s with the “supposed Catholics” comment? I’m not a “supposed Catholic” but a cradle to my grave Catholic and I absolutely cheer this decision. Having been educated in Catholic schools where I was taught the Theory of Evolution and having listened to what my Church has to say about it, I’m completely comfortable in cheering on this decision.

The real shock is hearing actual Catholics contend that somehow the Church finds evolution incompatible with God’s hand in creation when the opposite is true.
 
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bgaCath:
If God created human directly but you attributed his creation to monkeys, how would he feel?
If God hadn’t created human directly but you attributed this to Himself, how would he feel?
God can create the universe why he just can’t create humans directly to boost the linkage between human and God. Evolution to Christians/Jews/Muslems is like one can conceive naturally but still choose IVF.
Are you unfamiliar with the Catholic Church’s view on the Theory of Evolution?
 
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Thekla:
The real shock is hearing actual Catholics contend that somehow the Church finds evolution incompatible with God’s hand in creation when the opposite is true.
What’s that shock when we believe what the Bible says is true? Did Church ever tell anyone God never created humans directly?
 
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Thekla:
Are you unfamiliar with the Catholic Church’s view on the Theory of Evolution?
very simple. depends on private Catholics. I believe TE is wrong, you believe ID is wrong. you won’t be label as a heretic for believing in TE, neither do I for believing in ID.
 
I believe and worship God, because He created humans.
Atheists don’t worship God, because they believe they’re offspring of monkeys.

Creation theory/ID are the foundation for theism.
Evolution theory is the foundation for atheism.
 
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bgaCath:
very simple. depends on private Catholics. I believe TE is wrong, you believe ID is wrong. you won’t be label as a heretic for believing in TE, neither do I for believing in ID.
I believe that ID is creationism masquerading as science; it’s not a matter of it being wrong but rather a matter of it not being science. The Church has come down pretty harshly on ID and its proponents, but that it not to say that the Church only supports Evolution. Such is hardly the case. It has simply said that it’s not an either or proposition.

“We cannot say: creation or evolution, inasmuch as these two things respond to two different realities. The story of the dust of the earth and the breath of God, which we just heard, does not in fact explain how human persons come to be but rather what they are. It explains their inmost origin and casts light on the project that they are. And, vice versa, the theory of evolution seeks to understand and describe biological developments. But in so doing it cannot explain where the ‘project’ of human persons comes from, nor their inner origin, nor their particular nature. To that extent we are faced here with two complementary – rather than mutually exclusive – realities.” (Cardinal Ratzinger, *In the Beginning: A Catholic Understanding of the Story of Creation and the Fall)
 
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bgaCath:
I believe and worship God, because He created humans.
Atheists don’t worship God, because they believe they’re offspring of monkeys.

Creation theory/ID are the foundation for theism.
Evolution theory is the foundation for atheism.
Well at least you are admitting that ID is not science but creationism. That’s exactly what the judge in Pennsylvania ruled; that the School Board members were saying it was science when they were really promoting creationism. He also said that they had lied about their motivations.
 
I think keeping religion out of the science classroom is a good idea, and I’m glad the judge did too. I think a lot of people hear “religion” and assume “Christianity.” That’s not necessarily the case. First, as we all are well aware, not all Christianities are the same. I wouldn’t want public schools promoting Protestantism (which I believe ID essentially is a form of, but that’s another topic).

And let’s take this a step further. If we say it’s ok for religion to be in our science classrooms, why stop there? How about religion in our civics classes? We can teach Sharia (Islamic Law) instead of the Constitution. After all, the Constitution is a secular, maybe even Atheist document - why not teach a law system based on Divine Revelation?

You see how this is a problem? Everything’s fine so long as you get to decide whose religion gets taught, but there are no guarantees that you will get to choose this. Proponents of ID should think very carefully before they start blurring the boundaries between secular and religious subjects.
 
I absolutely love outsiders telling Central PA what is good for us.

I really don’t think ANYONE on this forum has read the disclaimer. At NO TIME was ID being taught in the classroom. Only a small notice to be read before EVOLUTION was taught. If the people on the other side won’t even allow others to hear that it is possible that evolution is wrong, or that other people believe in the possibility of something called ID (which is never described) how can a discussion take place? I believe BOTH evolution and ID. I am openminded enough to consider the merits of both.

Opening the door to people considering what began the process of evolution is a wonderful thing. So cheering the fact that the words “ID” cannot even be mentioned disgusts me.

Since science cannot prove when life begins, I guess those of you who support this decision also support the Roe decision?
 
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Thekla:
I believe that ID is creationism masquerading as science; it’s not a matter of it being wrong but rather a matter of it not being science.
You can say ID is masquerading as science and I say TE is falsefulness masquerading as truth. anything irrefutably takes the form of science doesn’t necessarily makes it right. e.g phrenology
The Church has come down pretty harshly on ID and its proponents, but that it not to say that the Church only supports Evolution. Such is hardly the case. It has simply said that it’s not an either or proposition.
That’s an empty claim. I need to see examples.

“We cannot say: creation or evolution, inasmuch as these two things respond to two different realities. The story of the dust of the earth and the breath of God, which we just heard, does not in fact explain how human persons come to be but rather what they are. It explains their inmost origin and casts light on the project that they are. And, vice versa, the theory of evolution seeks to understand and describe biological developments. But in so doing it cannot explain where the ‘project’ of human persons comes from, nor their inner origin, nor their particular nature. To that extent we are faced here with two complementary – rather than mutually exclusive – realities.” (Cardinal Ratzinger, *In the Beginning: A Catholic Understanding of the Story of Creation and the Fall)
*
First you need to show the source. 2nd if it’s genuine, it doesn’t necessarily right as it’s by “Cardinal” Ratzinger, Cardinal’s teachings aren’t protected by the Holy Ghost. 3rd if Human come from monkeys through random mutations, God will not told us he used dust of earth and breath of life. 4th literally and scientifically there’s only one reality, the same event can’t have 2 realities.
 
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Thekla:
The Catholic Church teaches us to not reject science as it has been rejected in the past.
Anything wrong in science should be rejected. Do you accept or reject phrenology? how about lobotomy? they certainly took the form of science.
Neither Bible nor Catholic tradition had taught earth is the center of solar system.
 
For those of you who insist that ID was being taught, here is the ONLY statement that was to be read regarding ID before EVOLUTION was taught:
Code:
* "The Pennsylvania Academic Standards require students to learn about Darwin's theory of evolution and eventually take a standardized test of which evolution is a part.  Because Darwin's theory is a theory, it continues to be tested as new evidence is discovered.  The theory is not a fact.  Gaps in the theory exist for which there is no evidence.  A theory is defined as a well tested explanation that unifies a broad range of observations.
 Intelligent design is an explanation of the origin of life that differs from Darwin's view.  The reference book, 'Of Pandas and People' is available in the library along with other resources for students who might be interested in gaining an understanding of what intelligent design actually involves.
 With respect to any theory, students are encouraged to keep an open mind.  the school leaves the discussion of the origins of life to individual students and their families.  As a standards driven district, class instruction focuses upon preparing students to achieve proficiency on standards based assessments."   *
That is the ENTIRE issue. That was the ONLY statement to be read. At no time was the theory of ID taught, only mentioned that such an idea exists (never even called a theory based upon the definition given). I challenge anyone to disagree with anything in the statement. There is absolutely nothing false in that statement.

After seeing how innocuous the actual statement is, it is no wonder that it is not being reported anywhere by the mainstream media. I live very close to Dover, and I had a difficult time finding the actual text.
 
Philip P:
I think keeping religion out of the science classroom is a good idea, and I’m glad the judge did too. I think a lot of people hear “religion” and assume “Christianity.” That’s not necessarily the case. First, as we all are well aware, not all Christianities are the same. I wouldn’t want public schools promoting Protestantism (which I believe ID essentially is a form of, but that’s another topic).
Read my previous posts. evidences that supports TE generally support ID. faced with ID, TE needs to prove all specifies come out RANDOMLY not by the design of a superior being. so far no TE supporter has come with any argument on that.
Philip P:
And let’s take this a step further. If we say it’s ok for religion to be in our science classrooms, why stop there? How about religion in our civics classes? We can teach Sharia (Islamic Law) instead of the Constitution. After all, the Constitution is a secular, maybe even Atheist document - why not teach a law system based on Divine Revelation?
You confused two concepts here: Atheism and religion independant. and I don’t wish to go any further down this path which is obviously off topic
Philip P:
You see how this is a problem? Everything’s fine so long as you get to decide whose religion gets taught, but there are no guarantees that you will get to choose this. Proponents of ID should think very carefully before they start blurring the boundaries between secular and religious subjects.
Be it secular or religious
everything that’s truth should be accepted.
everything that’s false should be rejected.
 
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Lurch104:
I absolutely love outsiders telling Central PA what is good for us.
What on earth can this possibly mean? It was a district court. Should you follow other rules than the rest of the country?
I really don’t think ANYONE on this forum has read the disclaimer.
After pointing out an instance where you asserted a demonstrably false assertion about the decision, your statement is a complete mystery. Of course many here have read the disclaimer. There are those of us who have read the full ruling, in which the disclaimer is carefully dissected. I have read the disclaimer. What of it?
At NO TIME was ID being taught in the classroom. Only a small notice to be read before EVOLUTION was taught.
Again, no. Please read the ruling. The proposal (ostensibly) was to teach ID as a valid scientific alternative to evolution, while also teaching evolution.
If the people on the other side won’t even allow others to hear that it is possible that evolution is wrong, or that other people believe in the possibility of something called ID (which is never described) how can a discussion take place? I believe BOTH evolution and ID. I am openminded enough to consider the merits of both.
But you can do better. Instead of merely considering the merits, you can take classes, do your own research, ask questions, and come to understand the science at such a level that you can make an informed decision. Thousands of scientists who spend their professional lives in this study have rejected ID as a scientific theory. It makes no predictions, and its only claim to legitimacy is to raise false controversies regarding evolutionary theory. Not only do these “problems” with evolution not exist, but the entire strategy is a logical fallacy. One does not strengthen ones theory merely by complaining about another.

It is a certainty that current evolutionary theory is not the Truth. No scientific theory is Truth. We only build fairly successful models of natural phenomena. That’s what makes the “disclaimer” so objectionable — it is a statement so obvious that to include it only in a biological curriculum as opposed to all other physical sciences is evidence of a subversive strategy. These ulterior motives were exposed in the trial and spelled out in the decision.
Opening the door to people considering what began the process of evolution is a wonderful thing. So cheering the fact that the words “ID” cannot even be mentioned disgusts me.
Sure. Scientists are working on the problem even now. I agree that it is a wonderful thing. I cheer that ID cannot be mentioned in a science class. It is manifestly not science.
Since science cannot prove when life begins, I guess those of you who support this decision also support the Roe decision?
Nice strategy.
 
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wanerious:
Sure. Scientists are working on the problem even now. I agree that it is a wonderful thing. I cheer that ID cannot be mentioned in a science class. It is manifestly not science.

Nice strategy.
do you think phrenology and lobotomy should gain their place in science class? or communism ideology which communists always claim to be scientifically proved?
 
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Lurch104:
I challenge anyone to disagree with anything in the statement. There is absolutely nothing false in that statement.
Challenge the judge. Please read the ruling. The entire story of what is wrong with the statement is clearly spelled out there. He did a marvelous job of pre-emptively taking your challenge.
After seeing how innocuous the actual statement is, it is no wonder that it is not being reported anywhere by the mainstream media. I live very close to Dover, and I had a difficult time finding the actual text.
I don’t know what “mainstream media” you’re talking about, but I easily found the statement and the ruling on the websites of ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, CNN, Google, MSNBC. There is no conspiracy to hide elements of the case. Here it is, in case you’re somehow having trouble finding it:

i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2005/images/12/20/kitzmiller.pdf
 
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wanerious:
Challenge the judge. Please read the ruling. The entire story of what is wrong with the statement is clearly spelled out there. He did a marvelous job of pre-emptively taking your challenge.

I don’t know what “mainstream media” you’re talking about, but I easily found the statement and the ruling on the websites of ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, CNN, Google, MSNBC. There is no conspiracy to hide elements of the case. Here it is, in case you’re somehow having trouble finding it:

i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2005/images/12/20/kitzmiller.pdf
OK, you have challenged my assertions. You have told me to take it up with the judge. I have posted the ENTIRE statement. If the judge read into the statement, that it his problem.

I again challenge you or anyone to point out anything false in the statement. I specifically does not call ID a theory. Judges are wrong all of the time. Many judges say that abortion is not murder, do you agree with that notion?

Furthermore, I have searched all of the website you have mentioned, while referencing the disclaimer, I have not found a full text of it. Links to the legal documents exist, but in the text of the news article it does not. Many are lead to believe that ID is being taught, it is or was not.
 
More from the transcripts of day one. Kenneth R. Miller PhD describes the meaning of the concept “Theory” in science.
Evolution is just a theory, in the same way that the atomic theory of matter is just a theory, the Copernican theory of the solar system is just a theory, or the germ theory of disease is just a theory. But theories, as I emphasized earlier, are not hunches, they’re not unproven speculation.
Theories are systems of explanations which are strongly supported by factual observations and which explain whole sets of facts and experimental results.

Q. And how do you distinguish, say, a theory from a fact?

A. A fact is a repeatable, verifiable observation or a result. So, for example, in the earlier demonstratives I showed, it is a fact that there is an altered initiator sequence on thebeta-globin pseudogene. It’s also a fact that there are five working copies of this gene on Chromosome Number 11.

All of these are facts. We can test them,we can verify them, we can put them together.

But facts by themselves don’t tell us a whole lot. A very famous biologist once said that without theories to tie them together, biology is just stamp collecting. And what they meant by that was that the production of isolated individual facts is unimportant unless you can tie all those facts together in an explanatory framework, and what a theory is is just such a mechanism.

When we say “theory” in science, we mean abroad, overarching, explanatory explanation that’s very strongly supported by fact and by factual evidence and that ties all of this together in an explanatory framework that helps us make testable predictions and testable hypotheses. And if it doesn’t do that, it’s not a scientific theory.
 
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