I'd like Catholicism more if it weren't for the Catholics

[kesa82]

I’m usually in the choir every Sunday. When I’m visiting for the weekend, I try to sit close to the front in the congregation, having missed the choir rehearsal. I then notice that people are afraid to sing, bringing to mind “Sing” by the Dresden Dolls. (See the lyrics; there is vulgarity at the end.) I feel this atmosphere of a group of people sitting awkwardly together – no one sings in their vicinity, so no one wants to be the only one singing. I try to participate as fully as I can, singing as well as I can, hoping the tension will lessen and others will become more engaged. I wonder if it’s having the right effect, though, because twice I’ve been complimented for my “beautiful singing” after the Mass, suggesting perhaps people are listening to me instead of singing themselves.

Typically the priest sings as much as he can, I suppose to set an example – but I don’t think the message gets across to the congregation, because hey, he’s the priest and he does a lot of things the congregation only watches.

Perhaps this hesitation to sing is only a phenomenon in the two churches I attend – I certainly hope so. But I think it’s related to what you mentioned: it seems many become introverted and watch the Mass, participating in it only for the monotone recitations. Perhaps we need signs or pamphlets in the lobby – you’re right, the enthusiasm of Protestant services is attractive (along with all the flashing lights and emphasis on the congregation, rather than God), so much so that I’ve seen poorly rooted Catholics apostatize for them, not noticing the holes in their theology.

On the subject of singing ;
I know we are supposed to, I know it is a good thing, but…
I don’t like singing for the same reason I don’t like wearing shorts, which is the same reason I have a strong aversion to addressing someone by their first name.
My aversion to singing has nothing to do with whether I can sing well or not.
My aversion to shorts has nothing to do with whether I think my legs are ugly or pretty.
My aversion to addressing you by first name has nothing to do with like or dislike of you or your name.
These three things seem extremely personal to me, and I cannot shake the feeling.
If I sing I feel naked. Other peoples singing has the same effect on me, it is as if they were touching me.
If I wear shorts I feel naked.
If I call you by first name it feels the same to me as if I had kissed you.
Church can be a chore, especially with the singing. Oh well.

 

[ASD]

But there is often a sense of community at protestant churches that I have found consistently lacking in Catholic parishes (and we’re military and have moved a lot since our conversion)
…
Does the protestant atmosphere of hospitality and goodwill create a different, more positive and welcoming environment? You bet it does! And people take it seriously to practice hospitality and goodwill.

So true.

My anecdote: In 2001 (1) I worked in an office on 103rd floor of the WTC1; (2) I spent countless hours creating a website for parish we recently moved into; (3) I was away from office on Sept 11, 2001 when the towers were attacked (or I wouldn’t be writing this). (4) But, nobody from the parish called my house to see if I was OK or ask my wife if she was OK. I was mortified; really hurt.

My analysis: Parishioners are quite literally taken for granted. I speculate that it’s an attitude that’s deeply rooted in both theology and the nature of the Catholic Church an an institution.

On one hand, theologically, Catholic Churches don’t feel like special solicitude is necessary because they offer something utterly unique, something that ought to be absolutely compelling in itself: The Real Presence. Calvary is really present every Sunday. The attitude would be: You need a special invitation?

On the other hand, institutionally, like ancient Judaism, Catholicism is a religion organized for an entire society, for everybody. In many ways it still reflects its origins as all-encompassing juridical and cultural framework for society within which everybody can live.

Maybe special solicitude, hospitality, etc, don’t quite square with that institutional self-conception. It’s as if we said, “Hey I just moved into this town where they expect me to obey the speed limits; but nobody made me feel very welcome, so I don’t feel like I should obey their durn speed limits.”

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[ASD]

…I don’t want the liturgy to become clapping and hooting and hollering.
What I want is for people to not leave early.
What I want is for people to not arrive late.
What I want is for people to not play on their i-phones during mass.

Well, I can go along with all that, for sure.

What I want is for people to be so enthusiastic that, when it is time to sing, they actually sing, not stare at their feet. What I want is for people to be so enthusiastic that they actually recite the creed, and not just watch the priest do it.
And this is not at my home parish, this is when I travel. I see it ALL the time when I travel. Which leads me to believe that MY parish, where people recite the creed, and kneel, and !gasp! actually GO to adoration, is the exception.
And that makes me very, very sad.

Setting aside the adoration, this raises some questions for me. One does frequently hear that, ironically, NO/OF Catholics are pretty tepid in the “active participation.” Usually, what one hears is that it’s a reflection on the laymen. I’m not so sure. Maybe it’s a reflection on the whole idea of “active participation.” Maybe there was something to be said for devoutly “assisting” at Mass in complete silence and stillness.

ASD;4685023:

No, poor choice of words. I mean the enthusiastic stuff isn’t a Catholic liturgical principle.

So, you’re right then. Enthusiasm, the kind that I’m looking for, maybe it’s not a Catholic liturgical principle.

I guess you’re being a little facetious, but I don’t really understand it. Maybe I’m doing a really bad job of saying what I mean.

All I meant originally was that the demonstrative stuff, the hootin’ and hollerin’, is alien to Catholic liturgy. Although I didn’t get it at first, it seems like we actually agree on that point.

Oh yeah, I edited all of this out, because I already said pretty much the same thing in three other posts, and I don’t like to beat dead horses.

Fair enough. It’s a long thread.

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[kage_ar]

Thinking more about singing. I think it is cultural - when I was a kid, singing was a normal group activity. When we got in the car, we sang - when we got together with friends, we did not watch a movie or play video games, we sang.

People don’t sing for fun anymore (unless they are in a bar).

 

[Phemie]

Thinking more about singing. I think it is cultural - when I was a kid, singing was a normal group activity. When we got in the car, we sang - when we got together with friends, we did not watch a movie or play video games, we sang.

People don’t sing for fun anymore (unless they are in a bar).

It’s true that it was the rare gathering in our home that didn’t result in a sing-along and we rarely did anything as Catholic school children that didn’t involve singing. OTOH, Mass was silent. We neither sang, nor responded as our parish never had the dialog Tridentine Masses that I read about here and we were certainly never invited to sing the Ordinary.

I can well recall going to Mass before school and most of the assembly was comprised of students. One girl, a few years older than I, could sing the Ordinary so she sang ‘the Mass’. I don’t know about anyone else there but I envied her ability to know all those Latin and Greek responses.

Years later, I go to the same parish when I’m visiting my hometown and the choir sings everything. Singing the responses because you are familiar with the setting earns you glares from the folks around you. It’s been 45 years but the people still haven’t been catechized about their responsibilities in that area.

 

[rachah]

I have attended protestant worship services of all sorts of denominations. The people who attend those services look like this:

:extrahappy:
:clapping:
:grouphug:

And at the Catholic services, they look like this:



What is GOING ON HERE PEOPLE?!?!
I want my Protestant friends to at least WITNESS the truth and beauty of the Catholic faith, but how can I do that when the participants at Mass don’t even witness the truth and beauty of it? I don’t blame my protestant brothers and sisters for turning away from the Catholic faith. If someone told me that the Lord is Joy and then I took them to one of the Catholic masses in my area, and they saw these mopey sorry faces, they’d have every right to think I was crazy.

Look, I’m not trying to turn Mass into a discotheque. It’s solemn. It’s holy. I get it. But is it really that hard for people to smile at eachother? Is it so hard for people to at least ACT like they want to be at Mass?

I know, I’m probably preaching to the choir here, but what’s a person to do to sort of, I don’t know, INVIGORATE the masses? (get it, masses, masses. Ha! Hmmm…probably using puns won’t invigorate anyone…)

I know what you are saying!!! I feel the same way!! I know that a mass should be respectful and solomn, but where’s the joy? Most of my elder family members complain if the mass is too long or the priest goes on and on. Where is the spiritual connection that we are there to seek?
Why can’t we mix it up a little? :grouphug:

In our parish, I believe change is comming. I have been praying for this for decades. We are now sponsoring “acts” retreats and it has actually opened up our parishioners to be more connected. I hope this is a start of a more fulfilling services.

You have a valid point! Something looking into. Anything to bring more people to our Church is a good thing. We are suppose to spread the word of God and if we are so closed up in our own reverence how can others see what it means to us?

Let’s open up and love one another. It’s okay to smile, hug and include people in our lives. By the way, it is contageous-God’s love.

 

[Writer]

I’m usually in the choir every Sunday. When I’m visiting for the weekend, I try to sit close to the front in the congregation, having missed the choir rehearsal. I then notice that people are afraid to sing, bringing to mind “Sing” by the Dresden Dolls. (See the lyrics; there is vulgarity at the end.) I feel this atmosphere of a group of people sitting awkwardly together – no one sings in their vicinity, so no one wants to be the only one singing. I try to participate as fully as I can, singing as well as I can, hoping the tension will lessen and others will become more engaged. I wonder if it’s having the right effect, though, because twice I’ve been complimented for my “beautiful singing” after the Mass, suggesting perhaps people are listening to me instead of singing themselves.

Typically the priest sings as much as he can, I suppose to set an example – but I don’t think the message gets across to the congregation, because hey, he’s the priest and he does a lot of things the congregation only watches.

Perhaps this hesitation to sing is only a phenomenon in the two churches I attend – I certainly hope so. But I think it’s related to what you mentioned: it seems many become introverted and watch the Mass, participating in it only for the monotone recitations. Perhaps we need signs or pamphlets in the lobby – you’re right, the enthusiasm of Protestant services is attractive (along with all the flashing lights and emphasis on the congregation, rather than God), so much so that I’ve seen poorly rooted Catholics apostatize for them, not noticing the holes in their theology.

There is a book someone recommended to me along the lines of “Why Catholics Don’t Sing.” I haven’t read it, but it sounded like the author made some very interesting points. We’ve had an interesting perspective because we spend two-weeks in Dallas, TX every couple of years. Strangely, there seems less participation in the Mass down there than what we witness in Oregon. Except for a Chinese Catholic Church we attend sometimes in Plano, it seems that Catholics have a little harder time singing down there. I have no idea why this would be, but this is certainly not a problem at our home parish. Well, I guess we have other issues in Oregon.

 

[Writer]

Hello I am the artist that Writer spoke about earlier.

When ever the subject of disappointing Masses comes up I have to put my oar in. Usually the conversation goes something like this: someone says how disappointed he is, that his mass is so ugly; a second person responds that yes it is but we have the Eucharist and that is enough ( Readers Digest version). But the truth of the matter is , no, the Eucharist is not enough and never has been and was never intended to be enough. Yes, I know it is Jesus.

The Mass is composed of several parts. Each part is meant to convey important truths to the worshiper all culminating in the greatest Truth, Christ’s own presents. But who is this Jesus? Why should I care that He is here? If He is here , how should I respond? How can I give my life to Someone I do not know?
It is these other considerations that should are addressed in the various parts of the Mass.

Now to my main point. All of these important considerations require the priest,congregation, and even the environment, to communicate in special ways so that those present learn the answers to the above questions; and any communication can be done well or poorly. Which means art is needed; because art is simply the form communication takes, just like the soul needs a body. Every idea must look like, sound like , feel like, or smell like something to be communicated to another person. The homily? an art form. Liturgy? an art form. Singing, architecture,icons? all art. Now any art can be done well or poorly.

If you see people not responding well to what is going on in the Mass( sublime as it it) it is because they do not understand what is going on. You tell them and they still don’t respond. It is because they are not moved by what you are saying. Art is needed.

Please don’t think I am talking about flowery language or all the gugaws and gimcracks you might see in some churches. I am talking about things said well and clearly. By the priest. By the building. By the music. From the sincere hearts of those who make the things seen and used in the mass.

You can not care abut the Eucharist if you don’t care about Jesus; and you can’t care about Jesus unless you know something about Him and that can be done well or poorly. The difference is art. The Holy Spirit often uses art.

 

[redrosetea]

Look at it this way…They are coming to mass and hearing the word…they are not the best in the world perhaps, but church is a hospital for sick people ,not a country club for saints

They can grow in holiness,and change…I don’t worry much about the ones that attend…the Holy Spirit is there and He will take care of them…It’s the people that don’t even make an effort to attend that are in the biggest danger

 

[Writer]

The last “Writer” post has my user name, because I apparently never logged-off on the Texas computer. Sorry for any confusion, but it is a different user.

 

[bilop]

One thing to remember, Sunday Mass is mandatory for Catholics (and Orthodox) but not for Protestants. So, the only Protestants at Church are the ones who feel like being there. Some of the Catholics may not particularly feel like being at Mass that day, but it is to their credit that they come anyway.

Also, Catholics don’t sing b/c it is not part of our tradition. The Catholic tradition is NOT to have hymns at Mass. There are parts of the Mass to be sung or chanted by the Priest or choir, but the hymns are a modern insertion (and are still officially the least preferred option). Most of them are Protestant hymns anyway.

God Bless

 

[Writer]

Well, the first mass had a hymn. On the night the Eucharist was instituted, Matt. 26:30

Different countries have different traditions about singing in mass. The U S , being a descendant of Irish traditions, didn’t sing until recently. Most everyone else, I think, did.

 

[bilop]

Well, the first mass had a hymn. On the night the Eucharist was instituted, Matt. 26:30

Different countries have different traditions about singing in mass. The U S , being a descendant of Irish traditions, didn’t sing until recently. Most everyone else, I think, did.

Singing, yes. Hymns, not really.

In the TLM (which was used throughout the Latin Church) the Antiphon might be sung, along with the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Credo, the Pater Noster, the Agnus Dei, etc.

Hymns might be sung before or after Mass. But, putting a hymn within the Mass is a late-20th century invention.

God Bless

 

[Writer]

Singing, yes. Hymns, not really.

In the TLM (which was used throughout the Latin Church) the Antiphon might be sung, along with the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Credo, the Pater Noster, the Agnus Dei, etc.

Hymns might be sung before or after Mass. But, putting a hymn within the Mass is a late-20th century invention.

God Bless

Writer responding (not John Carroll)

This is a good point that’s briefly touched on in Anthony Esolen’s recent articles in *This Rock, * (in a sidebar, I believe) and I have had a chance to recently discuss a related dimension of the issue with a former choir director from a Catholic Church. I think the problem with this particular argument, however, is that it suggests a rational or motivation for not singing which is not as widespread as I think would require for this to play a major factor. In other words, I think that this particular link is largely spurious. While it’s true that there are definitely conservative Catholics who hold to this view, it is my impression (from other factors) that this is only one of a number of underlying reasons for the lack of participation or involvement by some within the Mass. In fact, there are hymns (like “Sing a New Church”) which I won’t sing. That doesn’t mean that I’m not involved appropriately at other times in the Mass.

For example, it is often the same people who get up and leave early who seem not to be uttering a sound during the whole Mass. This doesn’t strike me as the behavior of those who would refrain from singing because of their conservative stance. The impression, at least, is that they are not there because they want to be. As the other poster observed, there is a requirement for Mass which doesn’t exist for Protestants. That still doesn’t explain why (from the outside, at least) many Catholics seem to be hurriedly going through the motions without concern to the meaning or the presence of Christ, more cultural than religious in one sense.

The danger, of course, in making these kinds of generalizations is that one is judging others in some way, but I’m speaking in generic terms of things I’ve witnessed in many Catholic Churches and something which has been comment on in the Forums many times. It seems to be a valid concern, something worth some further exploration.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

It is written that the gates of Hades will not prevail against the Church, but the same is not said of the participants. The more I learn about our Church, which is easy with all the books and documents from the official teaching authority, the more excited I am to go on Sunday or Vigil Mass. :extrahappy:

How many of the parishioners have read both encyclicals of Benedict XVI? Sadly, how many of the Deacons, Priests, or church staff? I say sadly because I know most at my parish would rather read about the ennegram or Father/Mother God and call all us orthodox Catholics intolerant.

Where is it written in the Bible that: “If those days had not been stopped, there would be no one left”? I’m paraphrasing and I may be wrong on the whole quote, context etc. but it seems that if no one learns the authoritative teaching of the Church and only listens to those with an anti-Church agenda the less enthused they will be at Mass and in their life in general. Of course we need very much to not judge but to strive ourselves to enter the narrow gate.

 

[Frosty]

Singing, yes. Hymns, not really.

In the TLM (which was used throughout the Latin Church) the Antiphon might be sung, along with the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Credo, the Pater Noster, the Agnus Dei, etc.

Hymns might be sung before or after Mass. But, putting a hymn within the Mass is a late-20th century invention.

God Bless

I’m not sure what you mean by a late 20th century invention? Hymn singing during Mass was definitely done in the late 1950’s. IMO the problem is that, unlike the earlier days of hymn singing during Mass when the number of hymns that could be used was relatively small, there is nowdays too much to choose from. If, for example, the same four hymns were sung every Sunday for a month or more, the congregation would become familiar with the words and melody and sing along. Over the last number of years, it has been my experience that almost on a weekly basis, so many different hymns are chosen that the congregation really has no idea how to sing along because they simply do not know the hymns at all. Sure, one can read the words from the hymnal but if one cannot read music or is not familiar with the melody, it is really difficult and some people just stop trying. At my parish, pretty well everyone will pick up the hymnal and at least follow along but few are actually singing. On the odd occasion when the hymns chosen are familiar, the singing is loud and robust.
Of course, the congregation’s singing during those times is often at odds with that of some members of the choir who seem to have their own interpretation on how to sing the hymn!

 

[PJM]

I have attended protestant worship services of all sorts of denominations. The people who attend those services look like this:

:extrahappy:

:grouphug:

And at the Catholic services, they look like this:



What is GOING ON HERE PEOPLE?!?!
I want my Protestant friends to at least WITNESS the truth and beauty of the Catholic faith, but how can I do that when the participants at Mass don’t even witness the truth and beauty of it?

Look, I’m not trying to turn Mass into a discotheque. It’s solemn. It’s holy. I get it. But is it really that hard for people to smile at eachother? Is it so hard for people to at least ACT like they want to be at Mass?

I know, I’m probably preaching to the choir here, but what’s a person to do to sort of, I don’t know, INVIGORATE the masses? (get it, masses, masses. Ha! Hmmm…probably using puns won’t invigorate anyone…)

The difference is Major and Signifiant…

Mass, the Holy Eucharist (which means Thanksgiving!) is making Jesus, now in His Glorified Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, present to us time and time again, so that we may:

**Thank Him for His Sacrifice

Receive the Real Jesus in Holy Communion (not a sign or mere symbol; but the Real Jesus

And so we can Worship Him in a manner fitting of actually being in the presence of God our Creator.**

Might you be seeing a worthy display of “Awe and Wonder” being in the physical presence of our God.:yup:

The problem is that you are right, we do tend to hold it inside us. Suprisingly, we don’t burst at the seams

I would like to see a more neighborly, friendly Church, but if we can only choose one; well it has to be as it is.

Your fustration is well grounded:crying: , there is no GOOD reason why we can’t have both. :dancing:

 

[Orate]

I’ll put my two cents in:

To you all who judge participation and enthusiasm by the seating arrangements, I beg to differ! I HATE sitting up front, not because I want to distance myself from the Lord, but because I’m entirely self conscious and don’t like people looking at me from behind. Think about that next time you think the holy one’s sit up front!

I sit in back preferably away from other people so that I can be alone. Alone with our Lord, no one looking at me judging me, thinking I’m a grouch. I have many sins of which I’m very well aware of, leave the judgment to the Lord and myself. If I don’t look like I’m filled with joy, that’s probably because I’m not. Do I have to be? I never thought so. Nor did I think that everyone on a business trip was silently judging me and thinking that if anyone ever met me they wouldn’t want to join my church. I go to church to pray, nothing more, our communion as a people is one of common sacrifice and prayer. Yellow, I have the RIGHT to pray as I see fit. Just because I’m not beaming with joy as the sacred Host is elevated doesn’t mean I’m not there “in the moment” i just might be filled with sorrow for my unworthiness and pleading for mercy. Sorry if my demeanor upsets your Sunday morning, but it’s who I am along with thousands if not millions of other Catholics as well. We don’t all express our faith and love with joy, and it certainly doesn’t make us bad examples of Christ’s presence and love if we don’t!

 

[weepixie71]

hi

i attend the tlm and im one of those solemn people you see at mass . its not that im bored its that im so focused on why im there and witnessing the Holy Sacrifice deserves all of my attention. its a the only way i know how to be reverent.
when i jump around for joy :bounce: and i sing , clap :clapping: , and hold hands :grouphug: i am becoming more of a participant and less of a witness. and then i get easily distracted why im there in the first place (maybe its an ADD thing: never had the guts to get tested). i suppose some people can do it without a hitch. more power to them. i hear there is a Catholic mass that is very lively. its called the novus ordo and is very popular. sometimes they even have a rock band.

 

[adelore]

Oh good! That is good to hear.
I see people checking their iphones.
They aren’t interested in the liturgy.
Or eachother even.

It breaks my heart.
Catholics have everything wonderful about their liturgy, and so many don’t even appreciate it.

Yellowbicycle,

Please don’t take what I’m going to say wrong, it’s not ment to be in a negative manner.

After reading some of your post, I’m just wondering something. It seems to me (by what you say) that you’ve been busy “watching others” during mass. If you are that busy “Watching what others do so much, then how much are you paying attention to the Mass?”

If you are seeing people checking their phones, there could be Plenty of reasons they are. 1. They are a Doctor on call. 2. A nurse on call. 3 They could have a loved one in the hospital, yet they wanted to attended Mass, for an uplift with the Lord. 4. They could be a fireman on call…the list goes on. Some people go to Mass during their “Breaks” after all we don’t know what their shift is.

We don’t know the reasons they are checking their phones…and we shouldn’t Assume what their reasons are.

For years (over 25) I was away from the Catholic Church. (I’m a Craddle Catholic) and yes I attended Many Prodesent Churchs.

Prodesents

You are very right the Prodesents are more “Friendly and Outgoing” to Newbies or someone visiting their church. This has been my thoughts on that.

In fact they are so quick to go up to a New person before Church Service…that each and every time, they didn’t even think about the fact that I was praying before service and they interupted me. After service it was the same way.

When a person enters the Church, goes to their pew, why is it Prodesents are so buy running all over the Church “Visiting and such” and no one is even praying before service?

Want to greet that New person…do it **in the foyer **before or after the service.

People who are so busy looking around a Church Service “to see who’s there that we can smile at or who is new” are not deep into the Church Service. Yet this is just what Prodesents do.

Catholics

As a Catholic once I’m past the Foyer, I know without a doubt that I can go to my pew and Pray Before and After Mass and other Catholics are going to respect the fact that’s why I’m there.

During Mass, I am so “tuned in” to the Mass that it’s like I’m in the Presence of the Lord Alone. Does my face to you look like I don’t want to be there. Far from it, I’m so “tuned in” with the Lord I don’t even know your “watching me”.

Catholics that seem to be mumbling… (to you) As Catholics we know we don’t need to “shout” to the Lord in His house. What we are saying (as a group) is so heart felt that we are talking to the Lord with our hearts, we don’t need to shout at Him. (Do you shout during prayer time at home? I don’t.)

After Mass, when I’m leaving the Church, I’m busy still holding on to the experience…so maybe I’m not smiling, I’m so deep in thought and Awe…of being in the Real Presence of my Lord.

The people who are in a hurry, as you say to leave the Mass. They could be the ones who have a loved one sick at home, in the Hospital, the Doctors, The Fireman…who knows. Yet keep in mind **they Wanted **to be at Mass in the first place or they wouldn’t have been there.

Now if you want to introduce your “friends” to the Catholic Church/Mass. What you need to do is let them know this is not a “Social Hour”. Catholics are there for One Reason Only. Explain to them just how Precious Our Mass is to us. That when we are there in the Real Presence of our Lord, we tune “everyone else” out.

So my question to you is this. Since you are noticing all these things about other Catholics Before, During, and after Mass. Just how “Tuned In” are you?