I'd like Catholicism more if it weren't for the Catholics

[Annc]

“What is GOING ON HERE PEOPLE?!?!”

The solemnity and dignity of Catholic Mass is the most appropriate form of public worship.

I agree.

The document Redemptionis Sacramentum is a good place to start if anyone would like to understand why this statement is accurate.

Here is the link that I hope will take you to the right page.

usccb.org/liturgy/documents/instructioneng.shtml

And again, the main premise of this thread has been to judge those who are not worshipping to your liking. Isn’t that rather judgemental? Do you know what is in their hearts? Perhaps those who look unhappy need to be there more than you know. If I need Jesus and need to be at Mass, why do I have have to “look” happy. Maybe I’m not, maybe I’m not joyful. Maybe that is why I am there. Jesus came to heal those that needed to be healed. I don’t think he said that we have to be happy or joyful to approach him. Rather than resent these people who are not “joyful”, pray for them.

When more orthodox minded folks complain about people being irreverant
they are accused of being judgemental.

Peace.

 

[LexKnight]

I agree.

The document Redemptionis Sacramentum is a good place to start if anyone would like to understand why this statement is accurate.

Here is the link that I hope will take you to the right page.

usccb.org/liturgy/documents/instructioneng.shtml

And again, the main premise of this thread has been to judge those who are not worshipping to your liking. Isn’t that rather judgemental? Do you know what is in their hearts? Perhaps those who look unhappy need to be there more than you know. If I need Jesus and need to be at Mass, why do I have have to “look” happy. Maybe I’m not, maybe I’m not joyful. Maybe that is why I am there. Jesus came to heal those that needed to be healed. I don’t think he said that we have to be happy or joyful to approach him. Rather than resent these people who are not “joyful”, pray for them.

When more orthodox minded folks complain about people being irreverant
they are accused of being judgemental.

Peace.

I’m not sure about others, but I wasn’t really trying to judge people who are unhappy. I was just saying that we can all do a little bit to try and promote joy within those who are there. I know there are some there who are (rightfully) upset or not in a good frame of mind, however there are also a large number of people who are just plain bored. The former we should attempt to help in any way we can, the latter we need to help too - albeit in a different way.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I don’t know. Except that you can’t always tell when somebody is a newcomer looking to join the parish; they may be visiting from out of town and attending to fulfill their obligation.

I mean for people like me who have signed the parish registry.

 

[Annc]

I’m not sure about others, but I wasn’t really trying to judge people who are unhappy. I was just saying that we can all do a little bit to try and promote joy within those who are there. I know there are some there who are (rightfully) upset or not in a good frame of mind, however there are also a large number of people who are just plain bored. The former we should attempt to help in any way we can, the latter we need to help too - albeit in a different way.

Thank you, I appreciate that you want to help people. Based on what has been described in this thread, i.e. people look bored, mumbling, not singing, frowning, I don’t know that we can help by doing anything differently during the Mass. The help they need probably needs to come outside of Mass in their preparation for Mass and their faith formation. I don’ know that most of us fall in love with Jesus and the Mass, at Mass. Sounds strange but for most we have to come to Mass with the foundation at least somewhat in place, a desire to grow and over time the Mass isn’t boring or solemn at all. Just serious business. It is very difficult to grow spiritually if all you do is go to Mass. Again, sounds strange but if there is “no fertile ground” how is the seed going to go. That is why we need prayer, devotions, scripture study. That said, our pastor talks a lot about having a healthy prayer life and promotes devotions during his homilies and that is having a great effect on the parish. The priest needs to teach and we need to learn.

Now for some, the Mass celebrated according to liturgical norms, in a fairly “orthodox” or “traditional” form, is solemn, perhaps not outwardly joyful enough (no clapping, swaying to music, or outbursts of any kind). We can argue all day about the appropriateness of these things that “look or feel joyful”. The point is that the Mass celebrated according to current liturgical norms is what it is, dignified, at times solemn, a time for serious prayer, reflection and union with Our Lord. At least in this country, perhaps excluding ethnic parishes. We just have to accept that. Given what we have heard from the US Bishops about the new translations and Benedict XVI’s own teachings and actions, I don’t see that as changing but rather challenging us even more to deepen our understanding of the mystery.

Outside of Mass we absolutely need to do a better of job of welcoming people, helping them understand that they are welcome no matter where they are on the journey but at the same time giving them the opportunity to grow. Providing faith formation with scripture study, prayer groups, etc.

Anything we on this thread can do to make that happen is what we need to do. Everyone has a job in the parish and the trick is to find it. Volunteer or be a prayer warrior if that is what you are called to do. That is how we light the fire by getting out there and reaching out.

You guys are great. This is one of the more civil threads I have been on in a while and I enjoy your opinions.

Thank you.

 

[block]

If someone told me that the Lord is Joy and then I took them to one of the Catholic masses in my area, and they saw these mopey sorry faces, they’d have every right to think I was crazy.QUOTE]

I enjoy taking an hour out of my week to go and worship the Lord, not to go to recess. I haven’t seen these mopey faces you talk about.

 

[rachah]

Just Want To Get This Out. I Love My Faith And Am Open To Learn More About Our Church And It’s Teachings, That Is Why I’m Here.

Prior To Becoming A Catholic, My Catholic Relatives Never Mentioned To Me, As I Was Growing Up, To Become A Catholic. They Really Never Mention Joining The Church Or What It Has To Offer.

My Dad Was A Non-church Going Catholic And Raised Me As Such. So He Did Not Have Me Baptized Or Anything.

All (most) Of My Relatives Are Nice People And Never Miss Mass. But Why Did They Not Mention Jesus To Me? Why Did Not They Mentions What The Church Has To Offer? Are We Not Told By Jesus In The Bible To Spread The Word Of God And Tell All The World Of Him? So Why The Silence?

When I Finally Decided That I Would Become A Catholic(thanks To My Husband), My Cousin Asked Me Why I Decided To Join The Church? The Final Slap In The Face. Not Very Welcomming!!!

So When People Say That The Mass Is Supposed To Be Solom And Quiet, To What Degree? Never Even Talk Outside Of Church About Our Beliefs? I Understand It’s A Place Of Worship But The Bible Says To Make A Joyful Noise And Praise God With All Your Heart.

I Guess What I’m Saying Is That Everyone Is Different In Their Worship And We Should Respect That. Not Be Offened Or Offer Up Judgements. And Why Not Be More Welcoming. I Could Have Had What The Church Had To Offer Me When I Was A Child If My Relatives Would Have Opened Their Hearts And Their Mouths About God And Our Church.

We Should Keep Our Hearts And Minds Open To Some Sugestions. That’s All. Thank You For Listening

 

[LilyM]

Just Want To Get This Out. I Love My Faith And Am Open To Learn More About Our Church And It’s Teachings, That Is Why I’m Here.

Prior To Becoming A Catholic, My Catholic Relatives Never Mentioned To Me, As I Was Growing Up, To Become A Catholic. They Really Never Mention Joining The Church Or What It Has To Offer.

My Dad Was A Non-church Going Catholic And Raised Me As Such. So He Did Not Have Me Baptized Or Anything.

All (most) Of My Relatives Are Nice People And Never Miss Mass. But Why Did They Not Mention Jesus To Me? Why Did Not They Mentions What The Church Has To Offer? Are We Not Told By Jesus In The Bible To Spread The Word Of God And Tell All The World Of Him? So Why The Silence?

When I Finally Decided That I Would Become A Catholic(thanks To My Husband), My Cousin Asked Me Why I Decided To Join The Church? The Final Slap In The Face. Not Very Welcomming!!!

So When People Say That The Mass Is Supposed To Be Solom And Quiet, To What Degree? Never Even Talk Outside Of Church About Our Beliefs? I Understand It’s A Place Of Worship But The Bible Says To Make A Joyful Noise And Praise God With All Your Heart.

I Guess What I’m Saying Is That Everyone Is Different In Their Worship And We Should Respect That. Not Be Offened Or Offer Up Judgements. And Why Not Be More Welcoming. I Could Have Had What The Church Had To Offer Me When I Was A Child If My Relatives Would Have Opened Their Hearts And Their Mouths About God And Our Church.

We Should Keep Our Hearts And Minds Open To Some Sugestions. That’s All. Thank You For Listening

PLEASE change the case you type in - don’t put capitals on every word.

To respond to your questions why did they not tell you? The most likely explanation is simply and sadly because they were far from wholehearted in their own practice of their faith. Every faith, and every denomination within Christianity, has a proportion of such lukewarm people, you just lucked out to have some in your own family.

By the way, were you practicing in any other faith or denomination of Christianity at the time? That might be a reason why they wouldn’t mention conversion to you - they wouldn’t think you’d be receptive to it.

On the other hand, had you ever stated to any of them at any stage that you weren’t into Christianity or Catholicism? Been critical of it? Acted indifferent towards it?

They may simply have taken you as your words or attitude indicated, thought you never would become Catholic and so not tried to press the issue. Perhaps your cousin was simply surprised to the point of shock, rather than displeased, when you did decide to practice your faith.

You can’t always read people’s minds accurately by their behaviour, nor do you always know everything about why people behave the way they do.

 

[Extempore]

rachac,

I think the issue isn’t so much the joyfulness outside of Mass. We should all strive to be joyful in our day-to-day activities, but here I think the discussion has to do with the laity’s disposition *during *Mass.

As for being “solemn” I think that solemnity is a good thing! After all, so many churches get so caught up in the “community” aspect of the Mass that the forget that the Lord Himself is really, truly present there. Because God is God and we are not, that in and of itself warrants a special degree of reverence. Furthermore, since the Mass is a Sacrifice (as opposed to a “meal”) there is a solemnity built into this. In every valid Mass celebrated, Christ is being offered again on the Cross as an un-bloody sacrifice. In this context, loud boisterous music, casual attire and chatty conversation seem extremely out of place.

Once we are out of Church though, yes, circumstances change, and I agree that we should endeavor to be friendly and welcoming to others in the Parish (both new and old members).

 

[LexKnight]

As for being “solemn” I think that solemnity is a good thing! After all, so many churches get so caught up in the “community” aspect of the Mass that the forget that the Lord Himself is really, truly present there.

This statement is a bit of a paradox, as according to Church teaching Jesus is present not only in the Blessed Sacrament, but in the community itself.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

The last thing I want is a ‘happy clappy’ service, but I do think that some parishes need to reach out and be more friendly to their new parishoners.

 

[rachah]

PLEASE change the case you type in - don’t put capitals on every word.*
Sorry I’m new at this.*

To respond to your questions why did they not tell you? The most likely explanation is simply and sadly because they were far from wholehearted in their own practice of their faith. Every faith, and every denomination within Christianity, has a proportion of such lukewarm people, you just lucked out to have some in your own family.
Yes, you are probably right, although they are very friendly in everyother way.

By the way, were you practicing in any other faith or denomination of Christianity at the time? That might be a reason why they wouldn’t mention conversion to you - they wouldn’t think you’d be receptive to it.
No.

On the other hand, had you ever stated to any of them at any stage that you weren’t into Christianity or Catholicism? Been critical of it? Acted indifferent towards it?
On the contrary. I alway was interested in it and went to mass when ever we visited, but just didn’t know much about it.

They may simply have taken you as your words or attitude indicated, thought you never would become Catholic and so not tried to press the issue. Perhaps your cousin was simply surprised to the point of shock, rather than displeased, when you did decide to practice your faith.
*I have always been interested in the church and my cousin should not have been shocked that I joined the church. After all, our family has a long catholic herritage. What I really wanted to say to her is why did you not ask me to join? Why would anyone not want to share the gift of our church and all it has to offer? Why talk about it now when you never mentioned it before? I guess I just need to get over it. I’m sure it’s not personal but it *hurts me just the same-knowing what I know now.

You can’t always read people’s minds accurately by their behaviour, nor do you always know everything about why people behave the way they do.

*And this is my point. Why not be on the safe side and invite people into our church. I want to be like the apostles and spread the message of Jesus and invite others to join our church. Would this not strenghten our personal faith as well as strenghtening our catholic church? * I’m just saying that reaching out a little is a good thing.

 

[rachah]

rachac,

I think the issue isn’t so much the joyfulness outside of Mass. We should all strive to be joyful in our day-to-day activities, but here I think the discussion has to do with the laity’s disposition *during *Mass.

As for being “solemn” I think that solemnity is a good thing! After all, so many churches get so caught up in the “community” aspect of the Mass that the forget that the Lord Himself is really, truly present there. Because God is God and we are not, that in and of itself warrants a special degree of reverence. Furthermore, since the Mass is a Sacrifice (as opposed to a “meal”) there is a solemnity built into this. In every valid Mass celebrated, Christ is being offered again on the Cross as an un-bloody sacrifice. In this context, loud boisterous music, casual attire and chatty conversation seem extremely out of place.

Once we are out of Church though, yes, circumstances change, and I agree that we should endeavor to be friendly and welcoming to others in the Parish (both new and old members).

I was just stating that being “solemn” at Mass shouldn’t be equated with unfriendliness. I agree that a Mass should conducted with a degree of reverence, and chattiness is not acceptable. But a lot of my catholic friends agree with me on the matter of it being too cold and almost void of all human emotions.

That’s why I’m here to learn the “whys” and the"why nots".

Thanks for the imput

 

[rachah]

The last thing I want is a ‘happy clappy’ service, but I do think that some parishes need to reach out and be more friendly to their new parishoners.

Why not happy clappy? Not ever? Maybe sometimes? Just asking? I’m just a happy clappy person, that’s why:clapping: May a little happiness at church is okay.

 

[rachah]

I’d like Catholicism more if it weren’t for the Catholics.

Wow a statement that rang true for me ( and many others) to some degree!!!

If one of us feel this way, then that’s one too many. We all should examine ourselves objectively, and adjust accordingly.

 

[johnpaul87]

I have attended protestant worship services of all sorts of denominations. The people who attend those services look like this:

:extrahappy:
:clapping:
:grouphug:

And at the Catholic services, they look like this:



What is GOING ON HERE PEOPLE?!?!
I want my Protestant friends to at least WITNESS the truth and beauty of the Catholic faith, but how can I do that when the participants at Mass don’t even witness the truth and beauty of it? I don’t blame my protestant brothers and sisters for turning away from the Catholic faith. If someone told me that the Lord is Joy and then I took them to one of the Catholic masses in my area, and they saw these mopey sorry faces, they’d have every right to think I was crazy.

Look, I’m not trying to turn Mass into a discotheque. It’s solemn. It’s holy. I get it. But is it really that hard for people to smile at eachother? Is it so hard for people to at least ACT like they want to be at Mass?

I know, I’m probably preaching to the choir here, but what’s a person to do to sort of, I don’t know, INVIGORATE the masses? (get it, masses, masses. Ha! Hmmm…probably using puns won’t invigorate anyone…)

rite you are brother. catholic sevices remind me more of a funeral than worship sevice

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Why not happy clappy? Not ever? Maybe sometimes? Just asking? I’m just a happy clappy person, that’s why:clapping: May a little happiness at church is okay.

It’s a Mass, not a service. I like happy clappy people just fine, but we are witnessing Christ’s sacrifice anew. I think that’s a solemn enough occasion.

 

[rachah]

rite you are brother. catholic sevices remind me more of a funeral than worship sevice

Exactly!!! But why are so many people here so against a little joyfulness? I’m not saying roll on the floor and scream out at the top of your voice. JUST JOYFUL, SMILE, LOVE, WORSHIP, CARE, CONNECT, REACHOUT, FEEL.

 

[rachah]

It’s a Mass, not a service. I like happy clappy people just fine, but we are witnessing Christ’s sacrifice anew. I think that’s a solemn enough occasion.

I know it’s a Mass, but I have been to a Mass conducted by a Jamaican Priest and he was joyful (people actually smiled and laughed). He was also serious when it was appropriate (Our Father, communion etc). After the service people actually stuck around and visited with each other instead of rushing off after the communion.

 

[LilyM]

*And this is my point. Why not be on the safe side and invite people into our church. I want to be like the apostles and spread the message of Jesus and invite others to join our church. Would this not strenghten our personal faith as well as strenghtening our catholic church? * I’m just **saying that reaching out a little is a good thing.

That would be because

a) the mass media and other denominations bash Catholicism so regularly and heavily - I hear anti-Catholic diatribes at work even from people who don’t know I’m Catholic and to whom I’ve never really mentioned religion at all!

Who in their right mind - who wasn’t pathologically masochistic and enjoyed pain for its own sake - would risk the slap-down involved in asking the latge number of Catholic-bashers out there to Mass?

b) many of us HAVE tried and again had our heads bitten off by people accusing us of ‘ramming religion down their throats’ or some such. Again - it’s not terribly encouraging!

 

[rachah]

That would be because

a) the mass media and other denominations bash Catholicism so regularly and heavily - I hear anti-Catholic diatribes at work even from people who don’t know I’m Catholic and to whom I’ve never really mentioned religion at all!

Who in their right mind - who wasn’t pathologically masochistic and enjoyed pain for its own sake - would risk the slap-down involved in asking the latge number of Catholic-bashers out there to Mass?

b) many of us HAVE tried and again had our heads bitten off by people accusing us of ‘ramming religion down their throats’ or some such. Again - it’s not terribly encouraging!

But I don’t think we should give up either:shrug: