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LilyM
Guest
Easier said then done - there’s only so many times human nature can stand your treasured beliefs being mocked.But I don’t think we should give up either:shrug:
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Earnest_Bunbury
Guest
We will be judged on what we do, not our results. The reason people are rude to your religion is because you don’t show them a committed catholic, or really any sort of catholic. If they haven’t learned about what they rail against, then their argument is lost by default. Remember, it is your job to witness, sow the seed, the rest is up to them and God.
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LilyM
Guest
Uh huh - so when those pagan Romans hated Christianity and had Christians lit up as torches and torn apart by lions it was the CHRISTIANS’ fault - they just weren’t nice enough or committed enough! Of COURSE!
And of course each and every one of 'em invited Nero to Mass with them first … :nope:
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EasterJoy
Guest
I’m jumping in late, but to address the original post:I have attended protestant worship services of all sorts of denominations. The people who attend those services look like this:
:extrahappy:
:clapping:
:grouphug:
And at the Catholic services, they look like this:
What is GOING ON HERE PEOPLE?!?!
I want my Protestant friends to at least WITNESS the truth and beauty of the Catholic faith, but how can I do that when the participants at Mass don’t even witness the truth and beauty of it? I don’t blame my protestant brothers and sisters for turning away from the Catholic faith. If someone told me that the Lord is Joy and then I took them to one of the Catholic masses in my area, and they saw these mopey sorry faces, they’d have every right to think I was crazy.
Look, I’m not trying to turn Mass into a discotheque. It’s solemn. It’s holy. I get it. But is it really that hard for people to smile at eachother? Is it so hard for people to at least ACT like they want to be at Mass?
I know, I’m probably preaching to the choir here, but what’s a person to do to sort of, I don’t know, INVIGORATE the masses? (get it, masses, masses. Ha! Hmmm…probably using puns won’t invigorate anyone…)
I don’t think you’re talking about vigor, at least not entirely. (I mean: sleeping at church is never a good sign, no.) I think you’re talking about personality differences. You cannot tell whether someone is living the Gospel by whether they like to clap on Sundays or not. Some people are very joyful without being noisy about it. For some, their hearts never sing as they do during the most solemn, quiet moments, even public ones. Don’t judge that as being an inferior spirituality. If anything, we are taught by the Lord to be a little leery of big outward shows of piety.
If the Gospel–the Beatitudes, the virtues, the evangelical counsels, the desire to live for God alone, love for the sacraments and the other spiritual gifts–isn’t what is “selling” your faith, then it isn’t worth selling.
You can get people to clap and smile and sing all you want, but if the totality of one’s practice of the faith takes place only at Mass on Sunday (or at “services”, if one is Protestant), which, if one takes any part of the faith as an obligation at all is the only obligation one will admit to, forget invigoration. You’re doing CPR on a dead body. Putting them in flipflops and giving them a drink with a swizzle stick won’t bring them back to life.
As Thomas Merton once wrote, “The spiritual life is first of all a life.” If one’s faith isn’t one’s life, it is nonsense to talk about invigorating it.
Back up, teach and expect people to have a personal life of prayer, penance, and service, not just a Sunday observance. Don’t worry so much about the looks on other people’s faces on Sundays. Look at the looks on their faces when they are serving the poor…do their faces even turn up there? Look at whether their faith informs the rest of their lives: their home lives, their work lives, their vacations. Do they look at their obligations of faith like their obligation to sleep and eat? Then you’ll know to what extent they are “invigorated” in their faith.
As for the rest, some parishes are noiser than others. As long as there is reverence at both, that is OK. That is as it should be. Tomato flowers don’t look like roses, but we wouldn’t want to go without tomatoes, would we? Or roses and rose hips. God made both, and for a good reason. If we are secure in believing that, we can rejoice in it.
If we are intent that our own words and deeds don’t mock the faith, God can be depended on to take care of the rest. Some of us are just tougher nuts to crack. Others of us got off easier. Our Lord Himself said that those of us lucky enough to be persecuted for the faith are well and truly blessed, with reason to rejoice, after all, right? We have been given the grace to live the faith in a way obvious enough to offend even the blind, in spite of our sins. So we should take heart and be glad of that much.
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LilyM
Guest
As I said in my last post - Christians uncomplainingly went to their deaths for their faith under Nero, and their example converted many. They didn’t, however, invite him to Mass with them knowing full well his disdain for Christianity. We’re not required to beat our heads against stone walls.
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EasterJoy
Guest
In the Beatitudes, the Lord said that we should rejoice if we have been persecuted…in other words, if they are being rude, we may very well have been showing them a very committed Catholic, which is precisely why they are so offended.
But yes: let them not have any real complaints against our conduct, but only the trumped-up kind of complaint that they made against the Lord Himself, whom they called a drunkard, a blasphemer, and all the rest.
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EasterJoy
Guest
Or cast our pearls before swine, either. Exactly. I’m sorry if I seemed to imply otherwise. I misunderstood what you meant.
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Extempore
Guest
I thought that naturally followed from the statement I made. I just worry that the emphasis on “community” detracts from the real purpose of the Mass which is not a community gathering but a Holy Sacrifice.
Community gatherings are fine, just reserve them for after Mass.
No problem! I appreciate the comments.I was just stating that being “solemn” at Mass shouldn’t be equated with unfriendliness. I agree that a Mass should conducted with a degree of reverence, and chattiness is not acceptable. But a lot of my catholic friends agree with me on the matter of it being too cold and almost void of all human emotions.
That’s why I’m here to learn the “whys” and the"why nots".
Thanks for the imput
Its hard for me to explain why, for me, the Mass transcends human emotions. They pale in comparison. I went to a very charismatic college where, even though they were displaying all sorts of “emotions” I doubt that the students were as emotionally moved as the average person I see every Sunday at the TLM.
I believe that the Mass of All Time is the closest that we can get to having a tiny slice of Heaven right here on earth. It has a beauty and an awe that transcends most earthly things. There are no words. One can only experience and treasure it.
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samcarter14
Guest
One of the most devout, joy-for-Christ filled people I know is a lady who has horrible back problems. She cannot sit or stand very long without being in excruciating pain. She must lay down in the pew in order to be able to at least attend to Mass. I’m sure some people in this thread would judge her–oh my gosh, she’s 
!
It’s no wonder Catholics are perceived as Judgy Mc-Judgers if we’re judging our own fellow Catholics based on their posture, attitude and “participation” in the Mass. You’re not singing? Why not? That’s not a good advertisement for the Church! Smile more! Invite me to donut hour!
For heaven’s sakes. I don’t worry about what my fellow churchgoers are doing in their own pews. I’m too concerned about my own attention, keeping my kids settled, and following in the missal. Anybody who can keep track of what others are doing in the Mass and at the same time follow along, pray, and devote themselves to Jesus must be amazing multitaskers.
Indeed, this thread has convinced me, too, that I would like Catholicism more if it weren’t for the Catholics…the ones who I will now worry are judging me based on my facial expression at Mass.
!It’s no wonder Catholics are perceived as Judgy Mc-Judgers if we’re judging our own fellow Catholics based on their posture, attitude and “participation” in the Mass. You’re not singing? Why not? That’s not a good advertisement for the Church! Smile more! Invite me to donut hour!
For heaven’s sakes. I don’t worry about what my fellow churchgoers are doing in their own pews. I’m too concerned about my own attention, keeping my kids settled, and following in the missal. Anybody who can keep track of what others are doing in the Mass and at the same time follow along, pray, and devote themselves to Jesus must be amazing multitaskers.
Indeed, this thread has convinced me, too, that I would like Catholicism more if it weren’t for the Catholics…the ones who I will now worry are judging me based on my facial expression at Mass.
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
Uh huh - so when those pagan Romans hated Christianity and had Christians lit up as torches and torn apart by lions it was the CHRISTIANS’ fault - they just weren’t nice enough or committed enough! Of COURSE!
And of course each and every one of 'em invited Nero to Mass with them first … :nope:
Huh?
One of the toughest things for me to learn (and I’m still learning) is that sometimes, when you do the right thing, they feed you to the lions.
But you still have to do the right thing.
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Saintlucy
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body{cursor:url(“http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%3A%2F%2Fplugin%2Esmileycentral%2Ecom%2Fassetserver%2Fcursor%2Ejhtml%3Fcur%3D1%26i%3D10026a/image.gif”) !important;}Well, the question is, what would YOU do if Jesus suddenly showed up? Which he does at Mass, only cunningly disguised as bread and wine
Speaking of the Mass being entertainment, though… Who else has been annoyed with the applause at the end of Mass, as though it was some sort of concert? of course I’m talking about your standard Sunday Mass, not weekday or EF Masses.
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
Huh???
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Writer
Guest
You’re right with regards to emotions; I think what people have been trying to get at here is something more than an insistence that we all be “happy, smiling people”. Life happens, and sometimes getting to Mass itself can be a real struggle for some of our brothers and sisters. When I try to discuss this issue, it could be described as something more along the lines of living the faith inside and outside of Mass. It’s also possible that my experiences are somewhat unique as I have had interesting opportunities to discuss our spiritual journey with other Catholics as well as to have attended Catholic Churches in other parts of the country. Sometimes, for example, I might not have noticed anything at all, except for the fact that I attended another parish where things were very different. Maybe a few personal examples will shed light on where I, at least, am coming from.One of the most devout, joy-for-Christ filled people I know is a lady who has horrible back problems. She cannot sit or stand very long without being in excruciating pain. She must lay down in the pew in order to be able to at least attend to Mass. I’m sure some people in this thread would judge her–oh my gosh, she’s
It’s no wonder Catholics are perceived as Judgy Mc-Judgers if we’re judging our own fellow Catholics based on their posture, attitude and “participation” in the Mass. You’re not singing? Why not? That’s not a good advertisement for the Church! Smile more! Invite me to donut hour!
For heaven’s sakes. I don’t worry about what my fellow churchgoers are doing in their own pews. I’m too concerned about my own attention, keeping my kids settled, and following in the missal. Anybody who can keep track of what others are doing in the Mass and at the same time follow along, pray, and devote themselves to Jesus must be amazing multitaskers.
Indeed, this thread has convinced me, too, that I would like Catholicism more if it weren’t for the Catholics…the ones who I will now worry are judging me based on my facial expression at Mass.
When we joined the Catholic Church, I mentioned it to a friend of mine with whom I had attended Catholic schools with since 4th grade. I expected him to be somewhat happy for the family’s journey, but it was almost the opposite response I received. His first advice to me as a new Catholic (or maybe we were still in RCIA at this time) was that we shouldn’t take everything the Church says as true. He made it clear that he and his wife picked and chose what rules they followed as Catholics. This shouldn’t have been a huge surprise, because, even though he comes from a huge Catholic family, his wife and he made no attempt to hide the fact that they were living together before they were married. The truth of the matter was, however, that it did come as a shock. From reading about Dr. Scott Hahn’s conversion experience, I believe he had a similar lukewarm reception by his Catholic friends. When we’re still soaking wet from crossing the Tiber, you don’t expect your Catholic friends to throw more water on you. Sadly, that experience, more or less, ended our friendship.
Another example is a strange one that I’ve discussed once or twice before on the Forums. A close relative nearly joined the Catholic Church until he had an opportunity to meet with a priest (whom had been a personal friend of his for years). The priest made it clear to him that he did not really think it was important for him to endure all of the trouble of converting. His advice to this relative to serve God as he was–as a Protestant.
The last example that comes to mind is from a year ago, or so, when my wife and I were asked to give a presentation concerning our spiritual journey to a large group of Catholic women in another West Coast city. Imagine our surprise when we were discussing the sin of abortion and birth control (and its demographic effect) to have many of these women roll their eyes and look very uncomfortable. Afterwards, my wife was even confronted by one of the women. It was not a particularly happy situation–especially in terms of a witness to non-Christian family members who came to listen to our presentations.
Like I’ve said before, my personal pet peeve is when the same people leave Mass early. As soon as they have received the holy Eucharist, they are out the door. When I’ve asked the priest about this, he can only shake his head sadly and remark that it’s unfortunate. From leaving early to not singing the music, they seem to be simply going through motions that are empty of meaning to them. If you really believed that the Eucharist in your mouth was the body, soul, and divinity of our savior, how could you race to your car as soon as you’ve left the communion line? In my mind, that’s more than a lack of reverence; it signals that something serious may be missing.
Of course, I don’t worry about these things all the time, but threads like this do spark my interest a bit. There may be many inter-related reasons for behaviors like what we’ve had described here, but it’s a little disheartening when one comes face to face with it. For me personally, I know we are where the Lord wants us to be, and I believe that we’ve contributed some real good with regards to our parish and elsewhere. We have no intention of leaving, but it is sad to witness Catholics who don’t see the treasure we have in the Church and treat it more as cultural or civic obligation to be approached with a heavy heart than the beautiful religious experience it is. After all, verses such as Matthew 6:17 remind us that our outward appearance, demeanor, and attitude are important.
All we can do is to continue to pray for a strengthening and renewal of the Church. It may also be that the coming dark change in the moral direction of this country may wake some of the sleepers up.
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LilyM
Guest
For the third time, the right thing was to witness to their faith by dying bravely for it. The right thing was NOT to waste their time begging for a slapdown by inviting Nero or their other persecutors to Mass with them!
Huh?
One of the toughest things for me to learn (and I’m still learning) is that sometimes, when you do the right thing, they feed you to the lions.
But you still have to do the right thing.
Didn’t Jesus say something about washing the dust off your sandals and moving on after a while if the people didn’t accept your message?
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CradleCath
Guest
[/QUOTE]
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
Surely you aren’t suggesting we never invite unbelievers to Mass.
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LilyM
Guest
Not unless there’s at least some chance they’d say yes. Which is why Nero never got an invite and never would from me either
Like the Lord, we want to scatter our seed on decent ground, not rock.
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Writer
Guest
CradleCath, I thought that this quote from Sing to the Lord, Music in Divine Worship might also be of interest as it touches on the internal and external roles of the congregation. The importance of the external, in particular, shouldn’t be overlooked. The footnote numbers have been retained.
*12. Participation in the Sacred Liturgy must be “internal, in the sense that by it the
faithful join their mind to what they pronounce or hear, and cooperate with heavenly grace.”24
Even when listening to the various prayers and readings of the Liturgy or to the singing of the
choir, the assembly continues to participate actively as they “unite themselves interiorly to what *
*12. Participation in the Sacred Liturgy must be “internal, in the sense that by it the
faithful join their mind to what they pronounce or hear, and cooperate with heavenly grace.”24
Even when listening to the various prayers and readings of the Liturgy or to the singing of the
choir, the assembly continues to participate actively as they “unite themselves interiorly to what *
- the ministers or choir sing, so that by listening to them they may raise their minds to God.”25 “In
a culture which neither favors nor fosters meditative quiet, the art of interior listening is learned
only with difficulty. Here we see how the liturgy, though it must always be properly inculturated,
must also be counter-cultural.”26
- **Participation must also be external, so that internal participation can be expressed and
reinforced by actions, gestures, and bodily attitudes, and by the acclamations, responses, and
singing.27 The quality of our participation in such sung praise comes less from our vocal ability
than from the desire of our hearts to sing together of our love for God. Participation in the Sacred
Liturgy both expresses and strengthens the faith that is in us. **
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Kelli_Gregori
Guest
I don’t like the clapping at the end of mass either. Some how, some where the hymns went from being a form of prayer to a folk concert (a remnant of the 70’s, I guess). I usually attend the 8 am mass at my church and lately, it seems to be diminishing somewhat.
The habit of leaving mass early also became popular in the early 70’s. However, the parish priest got it under control rather quickly, when he saw people leaving out the back of the church he would stand up and call them out by name and ask them where it was they had to be in such a hurry.
In the 80’s the parents who came of age in the early 70’s were bringing their kids to mass dressed in their soccer uniforms and leaving early because they had to get to the game. Once again the priest made an announcement from the altar, that he understood that we all have lives, but, that mass and God should be given the respect that was being given to the game and to the coach. The priest suggested that the parents speak to the coaches and ask that the game times be slated for a later time to allow families to participate fully in the mass. The point was made the point was taken.
We are all human. We all lapse. However, as spiritual leaders, I feel that the priests need to speak up and correct bad habits before they become the norm.
The habit of leaving mass early also became popular in the early 70’s. However, the parish priest got it under control rather quickly, when he saw people leaving out the back of the church he would stand up and call them out by name and ask them where it was they had to be in such a hurry.
In the 80’s the parents who came of age in the early 70’s were bringing their kids to mass dressed in their soccer uniforms and leaving early because they had to get to the game. Once again the priest made an announcement from the altar, that he understood that we all have lives, but, that mass and God should be given the respect that was being given to the game and to the coach. The priest suggested that the parents speak to the coaches and ask that the game times be slated for a later time to allow families to participate fully in the mass. The point was made the point was taken.
We are all human. We all lapse. However, as spiritual leaders, I feel that the priests need to speak up and correct bad habits before they become the norm.
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CradleCath
Guest
Uh…How many TLM’s have you attended?
I attend one every Sunday, but until a year ago I belonged to a parish that offered only the Novus Ordo.
I’m noticing your emphasis on singing & just wanted to tell you that, the Novus Ordo I used to attend has had very little music period… for the last 5 years. They used to have a choir & sometimes a soloist, but they “restored” a Church that had been wreckovated in the demolition derby that followed Vatican II. The results:
The original choir loft was torn out in the early 70’s.
The choir was moved to the Sanctuary.
The restoration committee put up a partial Communion Rail “for asthetic reasons”. Now, this Communion Rail is not to be used, for COTT is not allowed.
So…we couldn’t have a choir of song leader in the absent choir loft.
We couldn’t have a choir of song leader in the Sanctuary (the “new” Communion Rail was in the way.)
So, the priests there just decided to pretty much forget it. Which was OK. by me, as it was not sacred music. I had not sung or even heard sacred Catholic music for over 40 yrs. until I started attending the TLM. There’s nothing sacred about the music I’ve heard at the Novus Ordo. The tunes, rhythms, and messages are drawn mainly from secular culture. When it isn’t aesthetically repugnant and downright offensive to the Faith, it is utterly forgettable & mundane. Come on…what Catholic can get all excited over “Gift of Finest Wheat” & “On Eagles Wings”.
In the parish that I now attend, with the Tridentine Latin Mass, we are working on the music. . It’s the first & only Latin Mass we’ve had in almost 50 years in this city… Most of our people are young & this is all new to them. But, we are working on it. The following link will take you to the music that surrounds & penetrates the soul during Mass:
latinmassvideos.com/
We certainly aren’t as good as the Benedictines in France, but we’re working on it.
BTW. if you are having trouble finding “happy” Catholics, you might try looking for them at a Latin Mass. However, you might want to realize that this Joy has nothing to do with the “happiness” that you are used to, for happiness depends on happenings. Joy is not the same.
AND, we’re just about the most chatty, friendly group you could want to know…AFTER Mass. We’re having our third pot-luck dinner after next Sunday’s Mass. Can’t wait.
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