Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

  • Thread starter Thread starter anodos
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I thought twice about just posting the verses with no explanation, sorry.

Based on the above it is clear that there is more to justification than just believing the right thing. SS. Paul and James were in agreement that anyone who sins gravely, willfully and deliberately after justification will lose it and that good works are necessary to preserve justification.
 
Cat_Herder said:
Based on the above it is clear that there is more to justification than just believing the right thing. SS. Paul and James were in agreement that anyone who sins gravely, willfully and deliberately after justification will lose it and that good works are necessary to preserve justification.
Click to expand...
I agree that willful sin can nullify faith, and thereby, justification.

Neither of them teach that good works preserve justification. They do explicitly teach that good works are a necessary component of the justified Christian.
 
IggyAntiochus said:
I agree that willful sin can nullify faith, and thereby, justification.

Neither of them teach that good works preserve justification. They do explicitly teach that good works are a necessary component of the justified Christian.
Click to expand...
But that’s exactly what James said: faith without works is dead. I don’t think he can be any clearer than that.
 
Cat_Herder said:
But that’s exactly what James said: faith without works is dead. I don’t think he can be any clearer than that.
Click to expand...
There is nothing in that about preserving justification. What it does mean, is that one who merely professes faith without the actions to back up his faith, doesn’t really have faith to begin with. Just a profession.
 
IggyAntiochus said:
There is nothing in that about preserving justification. What it does mean, is that one who merely professes faith without the actions to back up his faith, doesn’t really have faith to begin with. Just a profession.
Click to expand...
But look at Paul’s admonition in Hebrews 10:26-29. That is addressed to a Christian who is already justified.
 
Cat_Herder said:
[BIBLEDRB]James 2:19-20[/BIBLEDRB]

I will repost my response to the James citation, because you and I both posted at exactly the same time. So, you may not have seen it.

Do the devils trust that the life, death, and resurrection of Christ alone justifies them?

Faith is not synonymous with belief.
Click to expand...
 
Cat_Herder said:
But look at Paul’s admonition in Hebrews 10:26-29. That is addressed to a Christian who is already justified.
Click to expand...
I do not disagree that repeated, willful sin can cause a loss of justification. I do not affirm “once saved always saved.”
 
grandfather said:
IggyAntiochus;9001207:
That comes from sola fide. What about repent and be saved? Don’t you think repentance is required?
Click to expand...
Repentance is a response of faith.
Jesus told His apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel of repentance for forgiveness of sins. You can’t be justified unless your sins are forgiven. Your sins can not be forgiven unless you repent. Repentance is something you must do, a work. It is done by grace, but nevertheless you do it. It is kind of like scripture. It was written by men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Men wrote it. Our salvation is like that. We are saved by God’s grace alone, but that grace causes us to act, to repent.
Click to expand...
I agree that grace causes us to repent. Our repentance is not the basis of our forgiveness, however. The sole ground of our forgiveness is God’s mercy in Christ, who bore our sins. Our sins are remitted because He has suffered in our place for the punishment of those sins. 2 Cor 5:21.
If our works are inspired by God and empowered by God then they are meritorious. We are acting with God. One way to look at it is God is over there, or up in heaven. I am here or on earth. God does things for the benefit of mankind and individual souls. Another way is God dwells in men and acts in them. Their acts are His acts. All who are in Christ are part of His body and they are one in Him, joined to Him and one another. As the head He causes His body to act. The members of His body act freely though. They are inspired to act, but not forced or compelled.
Click to expand...
I do not dispute that our good works will be rewarded by God. Scripture plainly teaches this, and no Protestant tradition I know of denies it (I could be wrong in that).
The Church is all the baptized, but Jesus made His promises to His apostles. He told Peter to feed His sheep. He gave them the power of binding and loosing sins. He charged them with going to the nations with His gospel. There were other followers of Jesus at the time. He commissioned only certain ones. Later He called Paul to a unique ministry. Paul had the authority of an apostle, different from the run of the mill Christian. Paul wrote his epistles in this ordained authority as part of the hierarchy, as did James, John and Peter. Why would you think anything would be different today?
Click to expand...
Pastors today do not possess the same authority as the apostles, as the apostolic office has ceased. Revelation has ceased. Now, that is not to deny that there is an office of the holy ministry within the church. But to see that hierarchy as being the sole recipient of the word “church” whenever it is used in the NT, is to read presupposition into the text where it is not warranted.
Click to expand...
 
IggyAntiochus said:
I do not disagree that repeated, willful sin can cause a loss of justification. I do not affirm “once saved always saved.”
Click to expand...
But the sin which Paul holds out as an example in Hebrews 10:25-29 is forsaking the assembly–a failure to do a good work, namely attending the Sacred Synaxis (aka the Mass). It is a failure to do a good work.
 
IggyAntiochus said:
Pastors today do not possess the same authority as the apostles, as the apostolic office has ceased. Revelation has ceased. Now, that is not to deny that there is an office of the holy ministry within the church. But to see that hierarchy as being the sole recipient of the word “church” whenever it is used in the NT, is to read presupposition into the text where it is not warranted.
Click to expand...
No, it is simply to trust that Jesus is not a failure. You are the one presupposing the end of apostolic authority. Nowhere do the Scriptures say such a thing.

I’m going to refer you again to the fact that for over a thousand years the only church was the Catholic Church. If what the Church was teaching was wrong then no one was justified and Jesus failed to do the will of God that all men have knowledge of the truth in order to be saved. (1Tim 2:3-4)

Jesus IS God, so that scenario is absolutely impossible, which is why the Catholic Church is infallible.

Calvin realized that if Jesus is not a failure then the Church was telling the truth and there was nothing to reform, so Calvin asserted that Jesus only died for the sins of certain special people (the billions who lived during the Catholic only millennium not being among them in his mind). And ever since then, non-Catholics have wanted to be special instead of being Christian.
 
Cat_Herder said:
But the sin which Paul holds out as an example in Hebrews 10:25-29 is forsaking the assembly–a failure to do a good work, namely attending the Sacred Synaxis (aka the Mass). It is a failure to do a good work.
Click to expand...
Where does Paul threaten damnation for this? Verse 25 is Paul’s exhortation to continue to meet in an assembly, because of the Day drawing near. Verses 26-29 warn against deliberate sinning. How is that connected to his request not to forsake meeting? His warnings have to do with denying Christ.
 
anodos said:
Would it be okay for me to say that the Church has both a body and a soul - the body is visible, and the soul may include the “invisible church”: those who do not subscribe to Catholic doctrine but are nevertheless a part of it? I’m using the lighthouse or “city on a hill” reference, grandfather, thanks for the suggestion.
Click to expand...
You cannot include non-Catholics into the body. They, from what I know, do not believe what Catholics are told is essential for salvation (many things), therefore they are not really “saved” or “born again”. If I am wrong please point it out, I thirst for truth. 👍
 
Cat_Herder said:
No, it is simply to trust that Jesus is not a failure. You are the one presupposing the end of apostolic authority. Nowhere do the Scriptures say such a thing.
Click to expand...
The qualifications for the office of Apostle cannot be met today. In a more negative sense, can you reference one passage of Scripture wherein the authority of the twelve, Paul, James, and Barnabas is said to be given to another?
I’m going to refer you again to the fact that for over a thousand years the only church was the Catholic Church. If what the Church was teaching was wrong then no one was justified and Jesus failed to do the will of God that all men have knowledge of the truth in order to be saved. (1Tim 2:3-4)
Click to expand...
Only if you believe that it be required for an infallible church in order for God to save men.
Calvin realized that if Jesus is not a failure then the Church was telling the truth and there was nothing to reform, so Calvin asserted that Jesus only died for the sins of certain special people (the billions who lived during the Catholic only millennium not being among them in his mind). And ever since then, non-Catholics have wanted to be special instead of being Christian.
Click to expand...
I don’t know enough about Calvin to speak to that topic.
 
Jaboshua said:
You cannot include non-Catholics into the body. They, from what I know, do not believe what Catholics are told is essential for salvation (many things), therefore they are not really “saved” or “born again”. If I am wrong please point it out, I thirst for truth. 👍
Click to expand...
Yes, other Christians are considered part of the body, though incompletely.

CCC paragraph 818:
“All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”
819 Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to Catholic unity.
 
IggyAntiochus said:
The qualifications for the office of Apostle cannot be met today. In a more negative sense, can you reference one passage of Scripture wherein the authority of the twelve, Paul, James, and Barnabas is said to be given to another?
Click to expand...
[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 4:14[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 5:22[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 14:22-25[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]2 Tim 2:2[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Titus 1:5[/BIBLEDRB]
Only if you believe that it be required for an infallible church in order for God to save men.
Click to expand...
How else do you propose that everyone can come to knowledge of the truth than through the Catholic Church? There are no other churches in the Middle Ages. No one has a Bible but the barons.
 
Cat_Herder said:
[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 4:14[/BIBLEDRB]
Click to expand...
And this implies apostolic authority how?

[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 5:22[/BIBLEDRB]

Same as above.
How else do you propose that everyone can come to knowledge of the truth than through the Catholic Church? There are no other churches in the Middle Ages. No one has a Bible but the barons.
Click to expand...
I agree. And how is infallibility required for this?
 
IggyAntiochus said:
And this implies apostolic authority how?
Click to expand...
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 8:9-24[/BIBLEDRB]
I agree. And how is infallibility required for this?
Click to expand...
It prevents this from happening:
[BIBLEDRB]Galatians 1:6-8[/BIBLEDRB]

Seeing as there were already false gospels circulating during his lifetime, if there is no one with Paul’s authority to set things straight, it would be all but impossible to guarantee that anyone actually had knowledge of the truth and the ability to be saved.

I know Jesus. He would NEVER allow something like that to happen. He loves us too much to leave us in anxiety over whether a given gospel is the real thing. That is why there was an Apostle Paul, and for that matter, an Apostle Peter–and thus why there is the Catholic Church.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top