Ideas on how to promote ad-orientem?

[malphono]

SUMMORUM PONTIFICUM …

Oh please, give it up. Enough! Basta! Fini! The torch has been passed. I shan’t comment again.

Ciao baby

 

[ProVobis]

FWIW

…
In fact, the current Sacramentary implicitly presumes that the priest is not facing the people when celebrating Mass; otherwise he would not be instructed by the GIRM and by the rubrics to “face the people” at specific moments of the Mass and then to turn back to face the altar (86, 107, 115, 116, 122, 198, and 199; Order of Mass, 2, 25, 104, 105, 111 and 113.)…

adoremus.org/1199-Kocik.html

 

[thomas_jd]

Find a priest willing to learn the 3/4 times during mass that he is required to face the people. I serve often at mass where different priests face the high altar (ad orientum) speaking the vernacular.

 

[JM3]

FWIW

adoremus.org/1199-Kocik.html

From your link, the previous paragraph says: ‘Similarly, the General Instruction of the Roman Missal [GIRM] has only this to say: “The main altar should be freestanding so that the ministers can easily walk around it and Mass can be celebrated facing the people. It should be placed in a central position which draws the attention of the whole congregation” (# 262).’

Which is incorrect.

GIRM #262 says: 262. Then the priest bows profoundly and says the Munda cor meum (Almighty God, cleanse my heart) and, afterwards, reads the Gospel. At the conclusion he says, Verbum Domini (The Gospel of the Lord), to which the minister responds, Laus tibi, Christe (Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ). The priest then venerates the book with a kiss, saying quietly the Per evangelica dicta (May the words of the Gospel).

GIRM #299: 299. The altar should be built apart from the wall, in such a way that it is possible to walk around it easily and* that Mass can be celebrated at it facing the people*, which is desirable wherever possible. The altar should, moreover, be so placed as to be truly the center toward which the attention of the whole congregation of the faithful naturally turns.[116] The altar is usually fixed and is dedicated.

 

[ProVobis]

GIRM #262 says: 262. Then the priest bows profoundly and says the Munda cor meum (Almighty God, cleanse my heart) and, afterwards, reads the Gospel. At the conclusion he says, Verbum Domini (The Gospel of the Lord), to which the minister responds, Laus tibi, Christe (Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ). The priest then venerates the book with a kiss, saying quietly the Per evangelica dicta (May the words of the Gospel).

GIRM #299: 299. The altar should be built apart from the wall, in such a way that it is possible to walk around it easily and* that Mass can be celebrated at it facing the people*, which is desirable wherever possible. The altar should, moreover, be so placed as to be truly the center toward which the attention of the whole congregation of the faithful naturally turns.[116] The altar is usually fixed and is dedicated.

Normally I like to criticize translations but I see no problem with yours.

ceciliaschola.org/pdf/girmlatin1.pdf

Is this another version of GIRM? Educate me as I’m not up to date with it.

 

[JM3]

Normally I like to criticize translations but I see no problem with yours.

ceciliaschola.org/pdf/girmlatin1.pdf

Is this another version of GIRM? Educate me as I’m not up to date with it.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20030317_ordinamento-messale_en.html

 

[ProVobis]

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20030317_ordinamento-messale_en.html

This appears to be the same one I asked you about. What about the one you were criticizing? I’m no expert at GIRM.

 

[JM3]

Inter oecumenici
Instruction on implementing liturgical norms
Consilium (of Sacred Congregation of Rites) - September 26, 1964

adoremus.org/Interoecumenici.html

VI. RESERVATION OF THE EUCHARIST

1. The eucharist is to be reserved in a solid and secure tabernacle, placed in the middle of the main altar or on a minor, but truly worthy altar, or, in accord with lawful custom and in particular cases approved by the local Ordinary, also in another, special, and properly adorned part of the church.

**It is lawful to celebrate Mass facing the people **even on an altar where there is a small but becoming tabernacle.

It seems to me that both ad-orientem and ‘facing the people’ were both meant to be used and that one is not ‘better’ or ‘more valid’ than the other.

It is our prejudices that we must keep in check, so as to not open an occasion to sin and think that the fault lies somewhere other than ourselves.
Just my opinion.

 

[JM3]

This appears to be the same one I asked you about. What about the one you were criticizing? I’m no expert at GIRM.

I posted: ‘From your link, the previous paragraph says’

I don’t know which version of GIRM the article was using. adoremus.org/1199-Kocik.html

 

[ProVobis]

So what’s the same Adoremus you quoted talking about here?

adoremus.org/1199-Kocik.html

 

[ProVobis]

I posted: ‘From your link, the previous paragraph says’

I don’t know which version of GIRM the article was using. adoremus.org/1199-Kocik.html

Fair enough.

Thanks for the research.

 

[JM3]

This is from the article adoremus.org/1199-Kocik.html

“Similarly, the General Instruction of the Roman Missal [GIRM] has only this to say: “The main altar should be freestanding so that the ministers can easily walk around it and Mass can be celebrated facing the people. It should be placed in a central position which draws the attention of the whole congregation” (# 262).”

GIRM edition of 1975 states:

1. The main altar should be freestanding to allow the ministers to walk around it easily and Mass to be celebrated facing the people. It should be so placed as to be a focal point on which the attention of the whole congregation centers naturally.81 The main altar should ordinarily be a fixed, consecrated altar.

In the introduction to the 1975 edition of the GIRM, it says this:

This translation of the GIRM is not based on the Latin text accompanying the 1969 Ordo Missae, but rather that in the 1975 editio typica altera of the Missale Romanum. Three versions of the GIRM preceded that accompanying the editio typica altera: 1) The GIRM issued with the new Ordo Missae promulgated 6 April 1969; 2) The GIRM as emended in the editio typica of the Missale Romanum, promulgated 26 March 1970; 3) The GIRM as emended by the variations published by the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship 23 December 1972, following the suppression of the diaconate and minor orders by the motu proprio Ministeria quaedam, 15 August 1972.

#299, stated in a previous post, is from the 2003 edition of the GIRM.

The article gives no references as to which edition it uses.

That’s all I know.

 

[corsair]

So many Canon Lawyers, so much talk. To heck with it I’ll just go to the EF where I don’t have to fret about this stuff.

 

[JM3]

So many Canon Lawyers, so much talk. To heck with it I’ll just go to the EF where I don’t have to fret about this stuff.

Are you saying that, in your heart, you believe that the Church erred in a matter of faith?

 

[ProVobis]

Are you saying that, in your heart, you believe that the Church erred in a matter of faith?

Could you please show on what basis you ask that question? What matter of faith? What belief? What possible error? All we are discussing is promotion of ad-orientem; how have you helped to promote it? If you’re saying it’s doctrinal that the priest must say Mass facing the people, then provide some evidence and then we can drop all discussions on it. We know what the GIRM reads by now.

 

[JM3]

Could you please show on what basis you ask that question? What matter of faith? What belief? What possible error? All we are discussing is promotion of ad-orientem; how have you helped to promote it? If you’re saying it’s doctrinal that the priest must say Mass facing the people, then provide some evidence and then we can drop all discussions on it. We know what the GIRM reads by now.

The question was asked to corsair, as his statement suggests that the OF is not a valid Mass.

As for my opinion, I believe I stated it in post #28.

Inter oecumenici states under chapter V, VI, #95 - ‘It is lawful to celebrate Mass facing the people’.

It also says at the bottom:

This Instruction was prepared by the Consilium by mandate of Pope Paul VI, and presented to the Pope by Cardinal Giacomo Lercaro, President of the Consilium. After having carefully considered the Instruction, in consultation with the Consilium and the Congregation of Rites, **Pope Paul **in an audience granted to Cardinal Arcadio Maria Larraona, Prefect of the Congregation of Rites, gave it specific approval as a whole and in its parts, confirmed it by his authority, and ordered it to be published and faithfully observed by all concerned, beginning on the first Sunday of Lent, March 7, 1965.

 

[wisdomseeker]

For those of us who are in parishes where the EF is pretty much an impossible dream, there still exist a possibility for ad-orientem (facing East). What can one do to perhaps promote it? Or talk to a priest about it? Anyone have any stories? Or ideas?

may be this video will help.

youtube.com/user/RealCatholicTV?feature=mhum#p/a/u/0/1WNkJ5Of5dU

 

[ProVobis]

The question was asked to corsair, as his statement suggests that the OF is not a valid Mass.

This is a serious accusation. How did you arrive at that conclusion? He merely said he would attend the EF where he wouldn’t “have to fret about this stuff.”

It also says at the bottom:

Doctrines of the church are expressed at the “bottom”? I asked for doctrine where the Mass must be said facing the people so we wouldn’t need further discussions.

 

[JM3]

This is a serious accusation. How did you arrive at that conclusion? He merely said he would attend the EF where he wouldn’t “have to fret about this stuff.”
Doctrines of the church are expressed at the “bottom”? I asked for doctrine where the Mass must be said facing the people so we wouldn’t need further discussions.

#1) No where have I said that Mass MUST be said facing the people. If you had bothered to look at my posts, you would know that I feel it doesn’t matter.

#2) Doctrines? If the Pope asked you to pick up a piece of paper that was on the floor, would you look at him at say ’ but that’s not a doctrine of the Church’?

#3) To say that ad-orientem is better than facing the people is to cast a shadow of doubt on the OF Mass. As is saying that it is ‘more holy’, more reverential or more pleasing to God. To say that you will not go to an OF Mass so you won’t ‘have to fret about this stuff’, is to offend the OF Mass by your actions as well as your heart.

Must the Church change things based on your personal prejudices and your ‘feelings’?

Can’t you see that the holiness of something comes from within you and not from without?

 

[ProVobis]

#3) To say that ad-orientem is better that facing the people is to cast a shadow of doubt on the OF Mass.

How? I’ve attended EF Masses where I and quite a few sat behind a free-standing altar. Therefore the priest said Mass facing a number of people. Same was true of the OF Mass celebrated there. This makes it invalid or valid?