Ideas: what do young Catholics need right now? {dating and relationships}

[Xantippe]

I took my own advice and read the one star Amazon reviews of I Kissed Dating Goodbye and then started the two star reviews.

I came across a really good old one by gortexgirl in the Amazon reviews. I’ll quote some chunks:

"For the vast majority of singles, the approach described in this book will be too rigid and contrived to be workable. Few couples have actually gotten together this way.

“The real reason why this book, with its overwhelmingly female readership, has sold so well comes down to one main reason: there is a SEVERE SHORTAGE OF SINGLE CHRISTIAN MEN, as documented in CampuslifeCollegeGuide.com male/female ratios, and the Barna Research group website which estimates the shortfall to be in the MILLIONS. Christianity Today recently identified the gender imbalance as being the issue that “rises to the top” for Christian singles.”

"What’s more, there are “unintended consequences” that can go along with Harris’ model for “courtship” that he doesn’t really address:

“1) Because all masculine initiative taking must be based on a guy’s intention to marry the woman, it makes asking a woman to do anything a BIG DEAL to him. This can have several sub-consequences:
(a) It creates a lot of anxiety for guys in terms of their decision-making and rejection-risk (getting turned down for a date is bad enough, but imagine having your “potential marriage proposal” crash and burn!) (b) It fosters prolonged crushes, as stakes get so high with the guy investing all kinds of time and energy in figuring out that this is “the one”, he might not ever do it (c) Ironically, it can boost up the guy’s expectations in terms of a woman’s looks. Because the guy has to have everything worked out in their heads (that yes, this is the kind of woman I want to marry) lot of guys end up not bothering to spend time with girls who don’t LOOK like whatever their “wife prototype” might be. Guys who date and don’t make a big deal of “a date” are more likely to ask out women they never thought of marrying and possibly end up getting married anyways (In “How to Get a Date Worth Keeping”, Henry Cloud explains how couples will admit that their spouses weren’t really “their type” when they first met).
2) It keeps people from the humbling reality check that dating provides. Serial dating (as practiced in Latin American countries, where a guy will ask out tons of women, get turned down by most of them until he has a “short-list”) teaches you where you stand with the opposite sex. You ask your way down your “ladder of options” until you find your equal (likewise for women, in terms of dealing with the facts about who’s asking and who’s not). With courtship, a man or woman can nurse an untested prototype of what they want in their heads for years. The idea that it’s better not to have any previous flames to compare them to is FALSE. You’re better off being compared to their last girlfriend/boyfriend (a real human being with chunky thighs and all) than with the evangelical Angelica Jolie/Brad Pitt that has filled their imaginations since adolescence!
3) It reduces interactive opportunities that promote the acquisition of social skills needed in a romantic context with the opposite sex. It reinforces the pattern of psycho-social-sexual immaturity you commonly see in Christian singles circles.
4) It’s unfair to the woman to have some guy spring a potential marriage proposal (which is essentially what courtship is) on her without any prior notice that the guy (who’s had a head start on working out his feelings) is romantically interested. Most Christian women seem to need some time to progressively get used to the idea of having a date with most of the guys who would realistically ask them, let alone entertain the thought of marriage.
5) It also heightens the significance of anything the men do when interacting with the women in their circle, who inevitably end up reading too much into their behavior and expecting too much whenever any nuance of interest gets expressed by a someone they like. Kind of like, “he’s a nice, sincere, Christian guy and he wouldn’t be spending this kind of time with me if he didn’t think of me as marriage material, right?”…not always so.”

 

[pianistclare]

I took my own advice and read the one star Amazon reviews of I Kissed Dating Goodbye and then started the two star reviews.

I came across a really good old one by gortexgirl in the Amazon reviews. I’ll quote some chunks:

"For the vast majority of singles, the approach described in this book will be too rigid and contrived to be workable. Few couples have actually gotten together this way.

“The real reason why this book, with its overwhelmingly female readership, has sold so well comes down to one main reason: there is a SEVERE SHORTAGE OF SINGLE CHRISTIAN MEN, as documented in CampuslifeCollegeGuide.com male/female ratios, and the Barna Research group website which estimates the shortfall to be in the MILLIONS. Christianity Today recently identified the gender imbalance as being the issue that “rises to the top” for Christian singles.”

"What’s more, there are “unintended consequences” that can go along with Harris’ model for “courtship” that he doesn’t really address:

“1) Because all masculine initiative taking must be based on a guy’s intention to marry the woman, it makes asking a woman to do anything a BIG DEAL to him. This can have several sub-consequences:
(a) It creates a lot of anxiety for guys in terms of their decision-making and rejection-risk (getting turned down for a date is bad enough, but imagine having your “potential marriage proposal” crash and burn!) (b) It fosters prolonged crushes, as stakes get so high with the guy investing all kinds of time and energy in figuring out that this is “the one”, he might not ever do it (c) Ironically, it can boost up the guy’s expectations in terms of a woman’s looks. Because the guy has to have everything worked out in their heads (that yes, this is the kind of woman I want to marry) lot of guys end up not bothering to spend time with girls who don’t LOOK like whatever their “wife prototype” might be. Guys who date and don’t make a big deal of “a date” are more likely to ask out women they never thought of marrying and possibly end up getting married anyways (In “How to Get a Date Worth Keeping”, Henry Cloud explains how couples will admit that their spouses weren’t really “their type” when they first met).
2) It keeps people from the humbling reality check that dating provides. Serial dating (as practiced in Latin American countries, where a guy will ask out tons of women, get turned down by most of them until he has a “short-list”) teaches you where you stand with the opposite sex. You ask your way down your “ladder of options” until you find your equal (likewise for women, in terms of dealing with the facts about who’s asking and who’s not). With courtship, a man or woman can nurse an untested prototype of what they want in their heads for years. The idea that it’s better not to have any previous flames to compare them to is FALSE. You’re better off being compared to their last girlfriend/boyfriend (a real human being with chunky thighs and all) than with the evangelical Angelica Jolie/Brad Pitt that has filled their imaginations since adolescence!
3) It reduces interactive opportunities that promote the acquisition of social skills needed in a romantic context with the opposite sex. It reinforces the pattern of psycho-social-sexual immaturity you commonly see in Christian singles circles.
4) It’s unfair to the woman to have some guy spring a potential marriage proposal (which is essentially what courtship is) on her without any prior notice that the guy (who’s had a head start on working out his feelings) is romantically interested. Most Christian women seem to need some time to progressively get used to the idea of having a date with most of the guys who would realistically ask them, let alone entertain the thought of marriage.
5) It also heightens the significance of anything the men do when interacting with the women in their circle, who inevitably end up reading too much into their behavior and expecting too much whenever any nuance of interest gets expressed by a someone they like. Kind of like, “he’s a nice, sincere, Christian guy and he wouldn’t be spending this kind of time with me if he didn’t think of me as marriage material, right?”…not always so.”

YES!

 

[Sarcelle]

OP was asking what young Catholics need. Young Catholics already have the ability to mingle with marrieds, nothing is stopping them.

A lot of married couples, especially those with young children prefer to socialize with other married couples with young children. The empty nesters are the ones who usually welcome the singles. This is in my experience .

Another approach towards singles that I appreciate is the approach that being single is not a defect that needs to be fixed by marriage. Marriage should not be discouraged but that does not include the view that singleness is a defect.

 

[Sarcelle]

This really shows the difference between between Protestant and Catholic ministries doesn’t it? In the America Catholic Church we expect those need a ministry to also be the ones to create and run. Every Catholic single groups I ever been to or been exposed to was ran by other singles. They couldn’t figure out for the life of them what they were doing wrong. They knew they were doing something wrong but didn’t know what. It was like a bunch preschoolers trying to teach themselves how to read, with no one in the group knowing how to read.

Protestant ministries in my experience are the opposite, those who don’t need the ministry or those who have gone through the same struggles but figured it out are the ones operating the ministries. Yes I have seen young mothers and fathers serve young singles and adults before.I have seen parents with teenagers serve young adults, one of my best friends mom was one of them. Yes some of them indeed haven’t dated in 30+ years, hell someone of them didn’t date at all! The little old ladies LOVED to play match maker and were active in doing so!

It’s no wonder why Catholics have a singles crisis and Protestants don’t.

I know too many Protestant singles, men and women who have stopped attending church, some have even left Christianity altogether because they were treated as pariahs. Singleness was seen as a defect at best and a sin at worst.

 

[Xantippe]

I know too many Protestant singles, men and women who have stopped attending church, some have even left Christianity altogether because they were treated as pariahs. Singleness was seen as a defect at best and a sin at worst.

That’s an interesting point.

I was just googling “older single women church” and got a bonanza of articles talking about how hard Protestant churches can be for single people:

faithstreet.com/onfaith/2014/04/09/are-single-people-the-lepers-of-today/31646

I think what may be going on here (attempting to reconcile Naskor’s observations of Protestant churches versus the articles I’m seeing) is that there may be a lot of Protestant groups and support for YOUNGER single people, but that once you hit a certain age, there isn’t as much support anymore.

 

[DarkLight]

That’s an interesting point.

I was just googling “older single women church” and got a bonanza of articles talking about how hard Protestant churches can be for single people:

faithstreet.com/onfaith/2014/04/09/are-single-people-the-lepers-of-today/31646

I think what may be going on here (attempting to reconcile Naskor’s observations of Protestant churches versus the articles I’m seeing) is that there may be a lot of Protestant groups and support for YOUNGER single people, but that once you hit a certain age, there isn’t as much support anymore.

My impression is that there’s much more of a push for everyone to get married in many protestant churches. The result is that there’s a lot of help to pair of younger single people, but past a certain age people start wondering what’s wrong with you that you aren’t married yet.

As far as “I Kissed Dating Goodbye”, my big problem was that it way overplayed the idea of only becoming involved with the one you want to marry, to the point where as a woman having feelings for a guy was tremendously guilt-producing if you didn’t end up with him. Because it wasn’t just feelings, it was Emotional Intimacy that you had with someone Not Your Husband.

 

[Xantippe]

As far as “I Kissed Dating Goodbye”, my big problem was that it way overplayed the idea of only becoming involved with the one you want to marry, to the point where as a woman having feelings for a guy was tremendously guilt-producing if you didn’t end up with him. Because it wasn’t just feelings, it was Emotional Intimacy that you had with someone Not Your Husband.

That does sound like a major wrong theological turn.

Hi, I’m Xantippe, and I have been Emotionally Intimate with literally dozens of people! I’ve even been Emotionally Intimate with people on CAF that I wasn’t married to! I fully intend to keep on being Emotionally Intimate with as many people as I can manage to be Emotionally Intimate with!

I think a problem here is that when people are coming up with the Big List of Reasons Why Premarital Sex is Bad, there tends to be a kitchen sink approach, and a lot of items wind up on the list that don’t belong there. Emotional intimacy is GOOD and being emotionally intimate with a lot of people is good. Our Lord was emotionally intimate with a lot of people.

I also think that that JH’s belief that emotional intimacy is bad is the product of a culture that does not value friendship. Note that he encourages all of this group stuff that would be oppressive and limiting even for same-sex platonic friends–same-sex platonic friends (if they are close) will often spend a lot of time having heart-to-hearts alone. Once you add in a third or a fourth person, the subject matter and emotional intensity of the conversation changes.

 

[DarkLight]

On a general note, it’s worth considering that good strong friendships are vital to curbing loneliness and encouraging people in staying chaste. So there’s a definite value to encouraging friendships all on their own - rather than just encouraging single people to spend time with other single people (and often dropping their friendships when one gets married and has kids).

 

[Bataar]

I had a friend who met his wife at bible study group for singles at his protestant church. His church had many different services and functions for different groups of people. Once they were officially dating, they were asked to stop attending that group and join a bible study group for couples at the same church.

 

[Xantippe]

I had a friend who met his wife at bible study group for singles at his protestant church. His church had many different services and functions for different groups of people. Once they were officially dating, they were asked to stop attending that group and join a bible study group for couples at the same church.

Most parishes wouldn’t have the kind of multiplicity of Bible studies that would allow that approach to be practical.

Aren’t most parishes doing pretty well to have one (1.00) Bible study running at any one time?

 

[Norseman82]

I think what may be going on here (attempting to reconcile Naskor’s observations of Protestant churches versus the articles I’m seeing) is that there may be a lot of Protestant groups and support for YOUNGER single people, but that once you hit a certain age, there isn’t as much support anymore.

It happens among Catholics as well. By and large, once you turn 40, many are turned away from Young Adult Ministry and Theology on Tap events. One lady once complained that people are kicked out when they turn 40, but they haven’t found a spouse yet. (Granted, it is looosening up a bit in Chicago).

 

[Norseman82]

I know too many Protestant singles, men and women who have stopped attending church, some have even left Christianity altogether because they were treated as pariahs. Singleness was seen as a defect at best and a sin at worst.

Others are leaving because they can’t find a spouse, so they are looking outside the Church, often putting their souls at risk with types of relationships condemned by the Church (especially in regards to divorce and remarriage). I once told my pastor the story of emails I got from a fellow parishoner who was basically “throwing in the towel” on Catholic marriage teachings and mentioned that we’re losing people - and their envelopes.

Personally, I’m engaging in a “work slowdown”. In other words, I’m not going out of my way to volunteer (unless it’s for something I really believe in). I was asked by my pastor to serve on the parish council, but I responded that I could not guarantee my availability due to things being hectic at work. This was partially the reason, but the other reason was a way of showing my disappointment at not being able to find a wife to build a family with.

 

[Xantippe]

Others are leaving because they can’t find a spouse, so they are looking outside the Church, often putting their souls at risk with types of relationships condemned by the Church (especially in regards to divorce and remarriage). I once told my pastor the story of emails I got from a fellow parishoner who was basically “throwing in the towel” on Catholic marriage teachings and mentioned that we’re losing people - and their envelopes.

Personally, I’m engaging in a “work slowdown”. In other words, I’m not going out of my way to volunteer (unless it’s for something I really believe in). I was asked by my pastor to serve on the parish council, but I responded that I could not guarantee my availability due to things being hectic at work. This was partially the reason, but the other reason was a way of showing my disappointment at not being able to find a wife to build a family with.

I’m not sure your gesture was as clear as you think it was.

 

[Xantippe]

I’m not sure your gesture was as clear as you think it was.

That said, if you need more time to socialize, it’s perfectly fine to spend less time doing volunteer stuff where you are unlikely to meet single new people in a carefree, fun setting.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Others are leaving because they can’t find a spouse, so they are looking outside the Church, often putting their souls at risk with types of relationships condemned by the Church (especially in regards to divorce and remarriage). I once told my pastor the story of emails I got from a fellow parishoner who was basically “throwing in the towel” on Catholic marriage teachings and mentioned that we’re losing people - and their envelopes.

Personally, I’m engaging in a “work slowdown”. In other words, I’m not going out of my way to volunteer (unless it’s for something I really believe in). I was asked by my pastor to serve on the parish council, but I responded that I could not guarantee my availability due to things being hectic at work. This was partially the reason, but the other reason was a way of showing my disappointment at not being able to find a wife to build a family with.

So you can’t find a wife, and you’re trying to punish your church for it? What its your pastor supposed to do, hold interviews and bring you a suitable woman? Building your family is your responsibility, not his.

I have a hard time picturing any devout woman being at all impressed with that course of action or underlying attitude.

 

[pianistclare]

So you can’t find a wife, and you’re trying to punish your church for it? What its your pastor supposed to do, hold interviews and bring you a suitable woman? Building your family is your responsibility, not his.

I have a hard time picturing any devout woman being at all impressed with that course of action or underlying attitude.

Right. The church has no obligation to find a mate for you.
No clue where you got this idea. Most people do not like to be set up on any level…even distantly. In addition, the Pastor asked you to make yourself available to help at the parish. You not only declined without a good reason, but you lied about the reason. That discussion, had you been frank, may have led to some good counseling regarding personal interaction. There’s plenty available women, particularly Catholic women, since they desire a guy who hasn’t slept around and is faithful. Blaming the church isn’t going to give you any real insight.

 

[XenaFan]

So you can’t find a wife, and you’re trying to punish your church for it? What its your pastor supposed to do, hold interviews and bring you a suitable woman? Building your family is your responsibility, not his.

I have a hard time picturing any devout woman being at all impressed with that course of action or underlying attitude.

He isn’t punishing the Church. I think Norseman is encountering a very real problem that singles in the Catholic Church experience. Singles in the Catholic Church are often treated like capital in a business rather than people with their own needs. The pastor actually does have a responsibility to help his flock enter their vocations. All to often what happens is that priests only care about forming other priests though.

Right. The church has no obligation to find a mate for you. No clue where you got this idea.

Sure, but the Church needs to be more than a vending machine for the Eucharist.

Most people do not like to be set up on any level…even distantly.

Some people don’t mind. Why take away that option for those mature enough to handle being set up?

In addition, the Pastor asked you to make yourself available to help at the parish. You not only declined without a good reason, but you lied about the reason. That discussion, had you been frank, may have led to some good counseling regarding personal interaction.

Like his pastor doesn’t have an obligation to help him find a spouse, he has no obligation to help out his pastor. Singles don’t have all this free time that marrieds think they have. They still have a job to do, still have to maintain their health, home and car, still have to errands. The difference is that singles have half the number of hands to do this. In a married couple, one spouse can go volunteer while the other is able to pick up the slack at home/work/etc… Singles don’t have this option.

Sounds like the pastor made a rookie mistake of asking the busiest group for help.

There’s plenty available women, particularly Catholic women, since they desire a guy who hasn’t slept around and is faithful. Blaming the church isn’t going to give you any real insight.

He doesn’t need insight. Everyone knows there is a singles crisis in the Church. We know the reasons. What people need is solutions not more speculation.

 

[pianistclare]

Sure, but the Church needs to be more than a vending machine for the Eucharist.

Sorry. but this is a VERY offensive statement.
I’m out.

 

[Norseman82]

So you can’t find a wife, and you’re trying to punish your church for it? What its your pastor supposed to do, hold interviews and bring you a suitable woman? Building your family is your responsibility, not his.

Someone needs to get them to “connect the dots”.

Look. If our Catholic leaders are so concerned about the decline of family and morals and the decreasing enrollment in Catholic schools (here in Chicago the big news is the number of Catholic schools that are closing or consolidating, including the one I graduated from), they will realize that it is in their best interest in helping people establish good Catholic families. Maybe in the atheist secular world “building your family is your responsibility, not his” may be true, but in the Catholic/Christian world, we’re supposed to be concerned for each other. When I see the comments in some of the dating/relationship threads here on CAF, I see more that people have been co-opted by secular values.

When there is discussion about Communist China’s one-child policy enforced by forced abortions, it is pointed out that the result is an imbalance between the number of males and females (not enough females for the males), and I’ve seen comments worrying about the social problem of the millions of Chinese males that are unable to find wives. I’ve even heard the quote “when men can’t find wives, wars start”. So, why are we concerned about males half a world away but could care less about our own kind here at home?

I have a hard time picturing any devout woman being at all impressed with that course of action or underlying attitude.

Then, getting back to the original question of the thread, what Catholics (not just young Catholics) need today is a sense of being a “team player” and “looking out for one’s own”.

 

[XenaFan]

Someone needs to get them to “connect the dots”.

Look. If our Catholic leaders are so concerned about the decline of family and morals and the decreasing enrollment in Catholic schools (here in Chicago the big news is the number of Catholic schools that are closing or consolidating, including the one I graduated from), they will realize that it is in their best interest in helping people establish good Catholic families. Maybe in the atheist secular world “building your family is your responsibility, not his” may be true, but in the Catholic/Christian world, we’re supposed to be concerned for each other. When I see the comments in some of the dating/relationship threads here on CAF, I see more that people have been co-opted by secular values.

It’s more sad than funny isn’t it? The Bishops are so worried about the decay of the family yet do nothing to help create good Catholic families. It does no good to close the barn door after the cows have left as they say.