Idolatry & Disordered Affection

[IAmEdmund]

How many different threads are you going to start on this topic, anyways?

 

[guanophore]

guanophore> I have to say I’ve become disappointed with your posts lately. They seem to be more focused on defending the RCC (and attacking those who doubt it) than being focused on the truth and considering the possibility that you, in human error, made a mistake in embracing it.

Such self-assuredness seems to be exactly what you would accuse Protestantism of.

Actually, the use of icons/images for prayer is not a 'Roman" phenomenon. Images for devotion have been used by Catholics long before the Roman Rite came into existence. I understand her doubts of the faith, as I shared them at one time. What I am bristling about is putting off the insights from private devotion onto others. It is improper to judge the thoughts of other’s hearts by their posture, as has been clearly shown here.

Who are you to judge that?

I can read! Besides, I’ve been there. done that. I was the same way. It was not until after I left the Church that I learned what my faith was really all about. I, too, sat in those pews and judged others by my self. I thought that because I went through the motions with empty heart, that everyone else did too. What arrogance!

Here's the problem -- because you don't see any contradictions (I must admit I think this is because you're not looking to see if there are any), you assume there are not any, and further, you assume that a proper understanding of the RCC will prevent anyone from seeing flaws in it. Thus, you're attacking Joy (and perhaps myself and others), claiming that we're ignorant, all because we don't see things your way.

Actually, I used to think that way too. I saw all kinds of contradictions. I even used to study Chick Tracts! :bigyikes:
It took a long time and many years of study and development of humility before I understood that, if there appeared to be a contradiction, it was in my lack of understanding, rather than the Revelation of God.

I know Baptists who say I never understood Christianity because I don’t believe what they do.

Well, I did not say that about Joy because she does not believe as I do. On the contrary, the Eastern Rites don’t use any statuary at all, partly because if the reasons she describes. In fact, in the part of the country where I live, there are some fanatical fans of Our Lady of Guadalupe that seem to me to be way over the top. No, I agree with the premises. It is from her posts I can see that she was not taught and did not believe what the Catholic Church teaches and believes.

. Even if we could accept that the RCC was 100% responsible for canonizing scripture (an assertion to which I do not ascribe), that doesn’t mean they’re responsible for writing it.

Well, I agree. This happened a couple three centuries before the Roman Rite developed.

Really? And how do you prove that the church of that day is the same as today’s RCC? Care to show me some actual ancient text which demonstrates the papacy, or the infallibility of the RCC?

Shouldn’t we do that on another thread?

And there’s no reason to believe we should not keep the Sabbath (that is, one day of rest after six days of work – I’m not sure I agree that it has to be the linear seventh day of the calendar week).

My point is that it is the same set of commandments, and it seems ok to set aside the seventh day of the week, but not create statues?

Because the RCC says so, despite scripture saying to the contrary, we can and should have graven images in our homes and churches.

This is another comment that has been made that I find confusing. Where does the Church command this? I am not aware of any ordinances of this kind at all.

If you truly need a statue or other object to get you to think about God…I don’t know what to say except that I’ll be praying for you.

Personally, I prefer a walk in the forest, but thanks for the prayers, I need all I can get!

Yes, I think Joy is miles beyond you in this regard.

Exactly my point! If a person has reached such a point of great piety, why would one be gadding about criticizing the prayer life of others?

Why do you need a prayer book to focus on, and communicate with, God? (I really would like an answer to this, if to nothing else.)

I wouldn’t call it a “need”. My sojourn in evangelical communities taught me to pray with scripture, and I am very fond of this particular practice. More recently, I have started praying the Divine Office, and I find that it orders my prayer time in a delightful manner.

Changing online aliases is confusing and almost deceptive in many cases. That’s why I’m still “The PC Master” – not because I believe I have mastered all things PC-related – it’s simply because many people know me as PCM, and thus I don’t wish to have anyone confused by me changing nicknames.

I would never suggest such a course of action for you!

 

[GreenLantern]

What of the Ark of the Covenant? Would you say that the ancient Israelites made no effort to venerate it?

 

[guanophore]

No, Joy need not change her name -- her signature clarifies her position. There's no deception going on here.

I will agree to disagree on this point. It is not for me to say, anyhow. She is free to misrepresent herself if she so chooses.

What about “worshiping” money?

I am glad you brought that up, because I was thinking about that when I wrote it! I agree, many people do make an idol out of money, but don’t think of it that way.

Weakness? How is it weak to remove symbols and signs and focus on God without their “help”?

Not that, the weakness of forcing others to give up theirs, because it bothers you.

Moreover…if you have the practice of kneeling beside a statue of Mary as you pray, and then suddenly I tell you that you can’t kneel while you pray, or have the Mary statue any more, would you not be very bothered? And if so, why is that? Is it not that you’re saying that you’re not capable of focusing on God without icons?

I think what would bother me is someone else legislating how I should worship. Personally, I don’t go in for this sort of practice, and it is not part of my devotion, but there are some people that find it very deepening, and I would not deprive them of their devotional practice, just because it is different. I don’t go in for the Rosary, either, but I don’t criticize others for being devoted to it.

While you can’t have Jesus as your primary focus and idols as your primary focus at the same time, you can think that one is your focus, when in fact it is another (due to human fallibility and failure to understand what devotion and worship truly are).

Yes, I agree with you on this point.

In that case, since I don’t think you understand Protestantism, you can’t tell Protestants that they’re wrong. (Now doesn’t it sound ridiculous when we put the shoe on the other foot?)

Well, I try not to, even though it does leak out at times.
It really does not further much discussion just to tell each other our wrongs, does it?

So Joy isn’t allowed to share her views on what we (collectively, as people in general) should do?

Sure, just somewhere else! CAF is not a venue for dissidents to try to pursuade Catholics to abandon their faith practices.

In that case, you can’t tell me my heart is not in the right place, when I’m praying for my Roman Catholic friends to be guided into God’s truth (which I sincerely believe will take them away from the RCC).

I am sure that God will hear your prayers, and answer Him in the best way only He knows how!

.

The concept of worship and thought without idols is so elementary to persons such as myself, and so we legitimately question why it’s so difficult for everyone else. In response, we are attacked. I don’t get it.

Because of the judgemental attitude. Read what you wrote. You are assuming that a devotional object is an “idol”.

I don’t recall Joy saying that she was never taught how to properly understand the RCC and its writings. If I may be slightly sarcastic here – where’d you get your crystal ball? Or is this again the issue of “because you don’t agree with me, you don’t know what you’re talking about, because I know I’m not wrong!”

I could go back and collect the posts, I guess. But perhaps she will save me the trouble, and confirm that she never believed that “stuff” in the first place?

Answer me this – are you, right now, willing to consider that you were wrong about the RCC…that you interpreted the evidence and teachings improperly, and thus came to a wrong conclusion? Are you willing to consider that possibility?

I can go further than that, and tell you that is most exactly what happened. I was brought up with it all around me, and I never did “get” it.

Moreover, we’re not even talking about photos or smells, which trigger a response in memory.

Actually, that is exactly what it is.

We’re talking about religious teachings that you’ve been taught orally or through writings.

Can you show where this is taught? I never got that…

Did the people have little replicas of the ark in their homes?

You know, I never thought of that!

How about the specific command to make no image of anything in heaven, or on earth, or under the earth? Pretty explicit, I’d say.

THat was my point about the Sabbath. Equally explicit, yet not followed by Christians (hardly).

 

[planter654]

Ok, let’s see if we can remain sober and logical in our discussion about idolatry - specifically pertaining (but not limited to) the use of statues in worship…

I will be careful in my terminology so as not to cause a ruckus…

Something can become an idol anytime we treat it in such a way that it either replaces God or is given the same honor as God. If money is your idol does it mean you put it on an altar and light candles and incense to it and pray before it on your knees? Silly - of course not. If you did such things it certainly would be idolatry of course b/c you’d be giving it the same honor and treatment that only God should be given. But more subtly, one can make money their idol by putting the pursuit of it before all other things - and most importantly - before God. Another subtle example of idolatry may be one’s preoccupation with looking good in the eyes of others or protecting their ego. Such a person may avoid living as God instructs them b/c it draws attention or causes criticism. Such a person may avoid spreading the good news for fear of rejection… In this way they make ego their idol. A person may avoid doing the same things for fear of offending others. Then that person makes society their idol.

All of these are disordered affections. We should love ourselves and one another, but if we would put ego or other’s ignorant misconceptions above the commands of God we have commited idolatry. One can love their neighbor and themselves but it must be done giving God first place. This is why we must “hate mother, father, sister, etc…” if we will be Jesus’ disciples b/c we don’t truly know how to love ourselves or one another in a godly way. We very often love in a disordered way. So if we are to follow Jesus’ command to love one another it must be a self-less love - the kind of love with which God loves us.

Now, as far as statues and other holy objects, this is far more obvious. God no where tells us to construct such objects to be the focal point in worship. God does instruct us to use matter in our worship, such as in ordinances like bread and wine, water and oil, etc… , but He does not instruct us to then treat those things with reverence, honor or veneration. We should treat them with respect, certainly, but we should not treat them in such a way that they are given the same treatment as only God should receive. There is a world of difference in that. I respect money, but I do not bow before it, light candles before it, etc… I respect the water used in baptism, but I don’t bow before it, light candles before it, etc… Nature brings to mind some of God’s attributes and His magesty, and I show respect for it and I do admire it (He created it afterall), but I do not treat it with the same reverence and honor I would give only to Him. I appreciate art and music as a human expression, but I do not make the human expression my focal point during worship or prayer, no matter how good that expression may be. It may be appealing to my senses, but my focus is on setting my heart and soul on God and the spiritual. The arts are spiritual - there is no doubt about that, but it is a reflection of MANS spirit or spiritual state or man’s spiritual conceptions (and misconceptions) and not God’s. We have a tendancy to fixate our affections on man’s expression b/c it is very beautiful, but in so doing we are idolizing it. St. John of the Cross said something to the affect that even nature itself pales in comparison to God. The beauty of nature itself leaves him hungry.

Regardless, God clearly understood these things when He forbade the construction of images to be used in worship (do not bow before them, etc…). Instead of setting a statue in a place of honor in one’s house, they would do better to let Jesus sit on the thrones of their hearts and give honor to Him by living in joyful obedience, humble submission, and love for Him. Not implying that Catholics do not do this, but using an inanimate object as the focal point for worship and prayer is not only an offense to the Commandment of God, but at the very least makes no logical sense whatsoever when one considers that even the magestic nature we see before us is an insufficient representation of God - and I would consider God’s creation to be a far better focal point and far better representation of God’s attibutes than anything man can create - wouldn’t you?

There is a fine line between respect and reverence/worship/veneration. St. Gemma Galgani was resolved to love nothing above God and to never set her affections on anything else or anyone else. She had very little possessions - perhaps a hat, mantle, and dress, shoes, etc., and she had this 1 relic. Jesus brought the relic to her attention. She realized what affection she had for it and immediately got rid of it. We are called to love one another, but not in a way that puts others before God. Furthermore, whatever act of love we give to another is given to Jesus “Whatever you do the least of my people you do unto me.”. Where has God instructed us to treat objects this way?

There is a fine line between respect and reverence/worship/veneration. The best way to avoid going past it is to avoid it. Pluck out they eye, cut off the hand… Throw out the plaster and wood…

And lest you think these things are only for the monastic etc… let me remind you all of your call to holiness. Perfection is for every single one of us!

Peace, and Have a Blessed Easter.

I’ll pick back up on this tomorrow.

Blessings~

I now understand the true meaning when Jesus said, about hating mother or father.
Beautiful, beautiful and humbly spoken. Thank you! God Bless

 

[planter654]

I recommend saving in a text file. It is a lot quicker!

This is very sad.

Don’t kid yourself, You were never Catholic. you were a non-Catechized baptized person, perhaps. No one who understands their Catholic faith will find any contradictions to it in scripture.

Scripture would not exist apart from the Church. Where do you think that Bible came from? There is nothing in it that contradicts the faith because it was written by for and about Catholics.

To say that scripture “would not exist apart” from the Church is false.

God knew it was going to exist before the Catholic Church even came to be, don’t you think? Not till all the gentles are in.
Bible came into being by the power of God!

Your are right the Bible books, gospels were put together by the Catholic Church, Oh! how God works in mysterious ways!

Thereforth the Catholic Church as no excuse for not obeying or knowing God’s word, don’t you think?

A very little child of God

 

[teadough]

You think

you don’t. But having good intentions, do you think you’d actually realize it if you did slip into that practice? We’re not talking about conscious, willful “I love this statue and I’m going to worship it instead of God” thinking. We’re talking way more subtle.

“we’re talking” = your misunderstanding. Sorry

I have no problem remembering events that have happened, without photos or smells. I also have photos in an album where I really can’t remember where they’re from or exactly when they were taken.

 

[mlchance]

The problem of idolatry is not in what is not found in the Bible, but what IS found: a commandment by God not to make an image…

So, then, you own no pictures, right? There are images on the Internet, including this website. You’re going to stop using them, right?

If we are distracted we should ask for the aid of the Holy Spirit, not an object.

Why do you insist on this tiresome strawman? There’s not a single Catholic posting here who asks objects for aid or worships objects.

Not only is that an impediment to spiritual progress but it is a direct offense against God’s commandment. I know I am not b/c I once fell into the category.

How irrational. Just because you have a problem doesn’t mean anyone does, and this is just another example of you distorting Scripture to make it say what you want it to say.

I find it quite telling that you have “discovered” the “real truth” about the Eucharist by studying John 6 and arrived at “answer” that just happens to be very convenient for you. It’s sort of like a homosexual person who “discovers” that Scripture doesn’t really condemn homosexuality, or a divorced person who “discovers” that Scripture doesn’t really prohibit divorce and remarriage.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[mlchance]

Thereforth the Catholic Church as no excuse for not obeying or knowing God’s word, don’t you think?

Therefore you have no excuse for not obeying and knowing the Church God used to authoritatively determine what books the Bible would include.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

How many different threads are you going to start on this topic, anyways?

Just one. I haven’t opened any others. The only other one I contributed to was short-lived - got locked b/c people can’t discuss this soberly or rationally.

 

[planter654]

What of the Ark of the Covenant? Would you say that the ancient Israelites made no effort to venerate it?

Idolatry and disordered affection. I think you are confused what the true meaning of God’s purpose was with Moses. Jesus time was not yet to come!

I hope this helps you with the idolatry!

The Old and New Covenant Hebrew
First Covenant was ordered by God to Moses…This way the Holy spirit show that the way into the sanctuary had not yet been revealed while the outer tabernacle still had its place. This is a symbol of the present time, in which gifts and sacrifieces are offered that CANNOT perfect the worshiper in conscience but only in matters of food and drink and various ritual washings regulations concerning the flesh, imposed until the time of the new order. The sprinkling of blood of animals etc.

Chapter 8 Hebrews
Now God told Moses: They worship in a Copy and shadow of the heavenly sanctuary, as Moses was WARNED when he was about to erect the tabernacle. For God said: See that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain. For if that first covenant had been faultless NO PLACE WOULD HAVE BEEN SOUGHT FOR A SECOND ONE.

Now the “FIRST” Covenant had regulations for worship and and an earthly sanctuary. For a tabernacle was constructed, the outer one, in which were the lampstand, the table, and the bread of offering: the table, and the bread of offering, this is called the Holy Place. Behind the second veil was the tabernacle called the Holy of Holies, in which were the gold altar of incense and the ark of the covenant entirely covered with gold. In it were the gold jar containing the manna, the staff of Aaron that had sproouted, and the tablets fo the covenant. Above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the place of expiation. God commanded Moses to do so and to do so perfectly as God commanded for it was a copy of the heavenly tabernacle but was made by hand, now Jesus Christ as come the "true tabernacle’ not a copy, nor made by hand! God had a great plan of salvation.

The new one had not yet been revealed while the outer tabernacle still had its place.!

The New covenant God made with us Read Chapter 8 verse 8

I will put my laws in their minds and I will write them ypon their hearts
I will be their God and they shall be my people. and they “shall not teach” each one his fellow citizen and kinsman, saying know the Lord for all shall know me from least to greatest.

When God speaks of a new covenant he declares the first one obsolete. And what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing!!

Jesus Christ the son of God has come!
New Covenant “Now.”
The main point of what has been said is this. We have such a High Priest, who has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majestly in Heaven, a Minister of the sanctuary and of the “True Tabernacle” that the Lord NOT man, set up. Christ came as high priest of the good things that have come to be, passing through the greater and more perfect “Tabernacle not made by Hands”! that is not belonging to this creation.

He entered ONCE for all into the sanctuary, not with the blood of goats and calves, but with “HIS OWN BLOOD” thus obtaining eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the sprinkling of a heifer ashes can sanctify those who are defiled so that their flesh is cleansed, how much more will the blood of Christ who through the eternal spirit offered himself unblemished to God cleanse our CONSCIENCES ( mind) from dead works to worship the living God!

God Bless for he loves us all dearly, Jesus did not suffer in vain!

 

[planter654]

Correct me if I am wrong, but it was Moses Obedience to God’s word and he accepted Gods word as truth! Mose did what God commanded him to do. If Moses did not do, what God ask Moses and in the way God commanded him, sprinkling upon it with blood of animals and offered his scarifice according to what God commanded for the forgiveness of sins of the flesh were not forgiven. Obedience to what God command him. Moses was worshipping God fully in all that God commanded him!

God Bless

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Not igonoring the other posts, just want to clear the air here a bit before I continue:

I understand her doubts of the faith, as I shared them at one time. What I am bristling about is putting off the insights from private devotion onto others. It is improper to judge the thoughts of other’s hearts by their posture, as has been clearly shown here.

No, I am trying to discuss what I consider an error. I have made no judgment on anyone’s hearts at all.

I’ve been there. done that. I was the same way. It was not until after I left the Church that I learned what my faith was really all about. I, too, sat in those pews and judged others by my self. I thought that because I went through the motions with empty heart, that everyone else did too. What arrogance!

Ok, so you are projecting here. I never sat in the pew judging others. I judged myself b/c I was one who knelt in front of, lit candles to and prayed before statues… I am speaking from not only personal experience as a once-practicing Catholic, but also using Catholic saints to clarify the reasoning that has led me to believe it is an error.

It is from her posts I can see that she was not taught and did not believe what the Catholic Church teaches and believes.

Unbelievable. Please visit the Defenders of the Catholic Faith message board and ask them if I didn’t know my Catholic faith before I had doubts. If they didn’t think I did they had an odd way of showing it. And I voluntarily left that board b/c my doubting caused a huge ruckus. I didn’t want to be considered evangelizing them so I voluntarily left.

why would one be gadding about criticizing the prayer life of others?

I am discussing my p.o.v. for my own sake. If someone gains something from the discussion that is good, but I’m not here to criticize. I want to test my convictions before I get baptized into the Mennonite church. If you had charity you would present good, thoughtful conversation so as to win me back to the f.o.t. you believe the CC possesses and be a light to others who are watching the conversation (more potential Catholic converts). So in essence I am here for selfish reasons. This is not my preferred avenue for evangelization. In fact, I very often wonder if it is the best avenue to pursue testing my conviction b/c I hate misunderstandings like this.

That concludes my self-defense. From here on out I will overlook the accusations and only discuss what is pertinent to the thread.

Bless You~

 

[planter654]

It is the same with idols that God commanded us NOT to do whether it be man or woman or bird etc.

Moses was obedient in all that God commanded him God warned him this is no small matter. To do exactly in the way God commanded him to make it. Moses worshipped God first and did all according to God’s command and will!

Jesus did the same and did so perfectly. God said: This is my son with whom I am well please, knowing exactly what was to happen to Him. Jesus did all according to the word of God! In “complete obedience”, thus worshipping God only, not the creature. Jesus did not change one of God’s commands to please himself or to say I will do it this way why, what is the difference! Nor did any mere mortal did he fear!

If we say we accept God’s word as truth, but do not obey his word doing the opposite, thus saying Lord, Lord, what did God say. Get away from me, for I do not know you!

Did Jesus not say at the last supper, I have accomplished all the work you gave me!

God Bless

 

[Stephen_C]

I guess you all can dance around this all you want. But the bottom line for me is that I do NOT worship stone, wood, the Bible (paper), etc… As well, the Catholic church does not teach such a thing. If you are so weak in your faith that you fear you are endangerd of doing such by looking at a statue, picture and such…then by all means don’t. Again you do NOT know my heart. You both are in my prayers. May you find peace.

God Bless you both,
Stephen

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

I now understand the true meaning when Jesus said, about hating mother or father.
Beautiful, beautiful and humbly spoken. Thank you! God Bless

Planter, I am glad what I put has blessed you. But please don’t take my word for it - it’s all there is Scripture. Keep on searching - God is faithful and always lead a sincere heart!

Bless you~

 

[teadough]

Unbelievable. Please visit the Defenders of the Catholic Faith message board and ask them if I didn’t know my Catholic faith before I had doubts. If they didn’t think I did they had an odd way of showing it. And I voluntarily left that board b/c my doubting caused a huge ruckus. I didn’t want to be considered evangelizing them so I voluntarily left.

You can’t say you knew your faith and at the same time be on the subject of Idolatry. I am sorry if you feel different. You are not speaking from a Catholic perspective no matter what you say your former experiences were. You were either taught wrong or you misunderstood the teaching.

I have no doubts that you feel you are doing the people who oppose Catholicism a favor. They are chiming in along with you and you have a sense of comradery. For the sake of the Catholic Faith we can say that you are not speaking from a Catholic perspective. You have not found any sort of “loophole” in our Faith and you are not convincing anyone who knows their Faith.

I am truly sorry that you feel that you were a practicing Catholic and I hope and pray that one day you will become one. Catholicism is a Religion as much as it is a lifestyle and a discipline. Catholicism is lived by the second and not the hour. Just because someone goes to Mass every week and takes Holy Communion, and even goes to Confession once in a while does not make them a “practicing” Catholic. There are plenty of people like that in the RCC. Guess what? They think they know their faith and tell people they were Catholic when they end up in a pew at a Baptist church. When they get to those protestant churches the members stand up and applaud at their “conversion” from Catholicism. The members of that church have no idea that the former “catholic” was not ever really a Catholic. They have no idea that the new members were just people who attended a Catholic parish.

I pray that you find your way

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

I guess you all can dance around this all you want. But the bottom line for me is that I do NOT worship stone, wood, the Bible (paper), etc… As well, the Catholic church does not teach such a thing. If you are so weak in your faith that you fear you are endangerd of doing such by looking at a statue, picture and such…then by all means don’t. Again you do NOT know my heart. You both are in my prayers. May you find peace.

God Bless you both,
Stephen

I won’t bother to copy and paste all the other posts that basically say the same thing.

Let me just say this: I know of people who live together before they are married - I know their intentions are good - yet the church admonishes their behaviour. I know of people who coddle their children - their intentions are good - but their behaviour is wrong. I know of people who are addicted to alcohol b/c they use it as medicine - their intentions for using it were good - but their remedy is wrong. I know of people who have had abortions - their intensions were good, but the church admonishes their “choice”.
I know married couples who avoid having children - their intentions are good, but the church admonishes their behaviour.

I could go on and on and on…

Intentions, no matter how good, do not justify an error. If you live in ignorance as to why something is wrong that is one thing, but many would prefer to live in ignorance than to discover their error and have to change.

If it is not an error, then everything is fine. No one is guilty of anything - and neither am I guilty b/c I chose to avoid what MIGHT be sin. However, if it IS an error, then I am wise to have avoided it, and those who gave consideration to it being an error but refused to find out for certain so they could remain in their error are guilty before God. I am not saying anyone here in particular fits into that category, but this is why I think it is an important discussion. It is the whole reason I’m even posting to this forum as I usually do not. If not remaining Catholic is an error, I need to know. I am not willfully ignorant.

I pray, for your sakes, you are right and that the practice is acceptable and pleasing to God.

Now I’d like to respond to some of the more pertinent points people have raised and get past the defensiveness (on both sides).

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

You can’t say you knew your faith and at the same time be on the subject of Idolatry. I am sorry if you feel different. You are not speaking from a Catholic perspective no matter what you say your former experiences were. You were either taught wrong or you misunderstood the teaching.

I don’t know why I bother to defend myself about this…

My BELIEF CHANGED! What don’t you understand about that???

I pray that you find your way

And I you…

 

[teadough]

It is the same with idols that God commanded us NOT to do whether it be man or woman or bird etc.

Moses was obedient in all that God commanded him God warned him this is no small matter. To do exactly in the way God commanded him to make it. Moses worshipped God first and did all according to God’s command and will!

Jesus did the same and did so perfectly. God said: This is my son with whom I am well please, knowing exactly what was to happen to Him. Jesus did all according to the word of God! In “complete obedience”, thus worshipping God only, not the creature. Jesus did not change one of God’s commands to please himself or to say I will do it this way why, what is the difference! Nor did any mere mortal did he fear!

If we say we accept God’s word as truth, but do not obey his word doing the opposite, thus saying Lord, Lord, what did God say. Get away from me, for I do not know you!

Did Jesus not say at the last supper, I have accomplished all the work you gave me!

God Bless

Your profile says you are a Catholic. You are not a Catholic in the true sense of the word. You can label yourself Catholic/Universal sense all you want .Like I said in my former post you nor anyone else have found a “loophole” to tear down the Catholic Faith and you are not convincing at all.

I have no doubt that you believe in Jesus Christ and are doing your best to serve Him. We have different opinion on certain subjects. The only difference is that our Faith will stand the test of time and will not fault. We will not split or be divided by silly assumptions that have been placed on us. You can try your hardest every minute of your life. In the end you will be tired and frustrated as you see the Power of the Catholic Church grow into Eternity.

I pray that you join us on that road. I pray that your eyes will be opened and you heart filled with Jesus Christ.

PEACE BE WITH YOU MY FRIEND