Idolatry & Disordered Affection

[wanner47]

JoytobeCatholic - I have an ultrasound picture of the baby I lost in a special picture frame. It sits on my desk and I look at it daily, often saying a prayer for him/her as I do so. Should I destroy it since it is only a likeness of my deceased child? What about pictures of my living children – should I destroy them too, since they are only likenesses? As you say, it is forbidden by God to have a likeness of any living thing. What do you think?

Also – you could change your username and put “formerly JoytobeCatholic” in your signature so people don’t get confused. That’s what I did on another forum after a name change. Just a suggestion.

 

[IHF]

I don’t see the point of so many of you posting on this topic.

It is obvious to me that Joy has already made up her mind and every post she makes is simply to refute what was posted above her.

If her husband whom is a well versed Catholic by her own admission cannot change her mind on this what sense does it make to discuss it here?

She isn’t likely to all of a sudden agree with everyone.

I’m trying to understand why people who don’t agree with the site post here at all. What is it you are trying to accomplish Joy?

One gathers all the info possible then makes a decision based on what they have found. The rest is based on faith.

IHF

 

[VociMike]

I don’t see the point of so many of you posting on this topic.

It is obvious to me that Joy has already made up her mind and every post she makes is simply to refute what was posted above her.

If her husband whom is a well versed Catholic by her own admission cannot change her mind on this what sense does it make to discuss it here?

She isn’t likely to all of a sudden agree with everyone.

I’m trying to understand why people who don’t agree with the site post here at all. What is it you are trying to accomplish Joy?

INF

For me at least, one point of replying to “obstinate” posters is because others, perhaps those looking into the Catholic faith, or Catholics who are confused by such charges, are also reading, and every false charge should be answered for their benefit as well.

 

[IHF]

For me at least, one point of replying to “obstinate” posters is because others, perhaps those looking into the Catholic faith, or Catholics who are confused by such charges, are also reading, and every false charge should be answered for their benefit as well.

I see your point.
That is what I am doing right now actually.
I am on the road to becoming Catholic and reading everything possible in order to live as strictly as possible.

 

[VociMike]

I see your point.
That is what I am doing right now actually.
I am on the road to becoming Catholic and reading everything possible in order to live as strictly as possible.

Welcome to the journey! It is important for this subject (alleged idolatry) to emphasize that essentially no Christian obeys the letter of this law. While they are accusing Catholics of idolatry, at the same time they will have likenesses of things in heaven or on earth or in the sea. At the same time that they will easily (even dismissively) explain away their exceptions to the letter of the law, based on their private interpretations of the scriptures, they refuse to acknowledge the exceptions which the Catholic Church, with the guidance and authority of God, allows.

That is nothing more or less than hypocrisy, and Christ had nothing good to say about hypocrites.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

That’s one of the most butchered interpretations that I’ve ever seen.

I actually consulted several different Bible versions before posting that one b/c they all said the same thing. Do you consider these butchered as well?:

KJV:

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me,

American Standard Version:

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me,

Douay-rheims:
4Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth.
5Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:

They all say the same thing. Bowing is an expression of adoration lest that be your specific problem with the wording. The angel in revelations and Peter both viewed it as such and rebuked it. Going beyond what is written is pure speculation (that God told them it was worship and so they rebuked them) and an excuse not worthy of my consideration.

You take the passage apart when it is clear that what God is forbidding is what I have highlighted in red.

I did not. I gave the entire passage and even said:

The key is “make unto thee”. What does this mean? It means you make it for your own purpose.

Then vs 5 tells us why. No offense, CM, but, IMO, you are notorious for twisting words and meanings (not just mine). I pray it is unintentional. I clearly brought vs 5 into light as to the reason it is forbidden.

He’s not talking about the images, He’s forbidding their adoration, something that no faithful Catholic ever does, (in spite of the a-C allegations put forth).

Not true at all. Have you never seen a church with kneelers in front of its statues? When you say “no faithful Catholic ever does” you are probably meaning that they never intent to, and that is probably true in most cases, but again, intention does not excuse error unless it is due to ignorance. But those who have considered the Scripture which clearly condemns it and continue to defend the practice cannot make such a claim of ignorance. And, btw:

(in spite of the a-C allegations put forth).

Why do you continue to take part in apologetics discussion? You KNOW you are going to be dealing with non-Catholic thought - all of which you label: “anti-Catholic”. I am NOT anti-Catholic simply b/c I question the Catholic church’s teachings and don’t appreciate being uncharitably labelled as such! Do you need to mis-label people to justify yourself? Does it somehow make you feel more righteous? God help you…

Just one more example of the n-C error of Sola Scriptura and their belief that anyone can pick up a Bible and rightly interpret what they read.

Save it for a thread on s.s… Derrogatory comments like these are also numerous in your posts, and I had promised myself the last time I conversed with you that I would bring it to your attention. Your posts wreak with anti-“protestantism” & self-righteousness and lack the charity worth giving them consideration. The only reason I am responding to them is for the sake of those who do.

Especially without reference to what the Church has believed and taught for the 2,000 years it has been around.

I don’t care to follow error - even if it is 2000 years old. It doesn’t make it any more appealing.

If images are so bad then why did the persecuted church have them all over the catacombs where they hid out and worshiped?

Again, prove that the images were 1) adored/“served”/bowed to, etc… and furthermore, 2) prove that those who made those images were faithful in all aspects to the original faith.

Praying God will inspire you with a more respectful and charitable response…

Peace~

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Why don’t you ask them what is taking place instead of claiming you know what their intentions are?

Huh??? The MONKS put the kneelers there. It is clear what the intention is! I see what you meant though. What if they set out 100 pitchers of beer and a big “FREE” sign on it? Why not? There is no sin in drinking now is there?

Besides, the command is explicit. “do not bow to them…”

 

[VociMike]

Besides, the command is explicit. “do not bow to them…”

“You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.”

Pretty explicit. Not just graven images are prohibited, but any likeness of any thing. Do you carry money around? Do you have photos? Do you watch movies or TV? The list of likenesses is endless.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

For me at least, one point of replying to “obstinate” posters is because others, perhaps those looking into the Catholic faith, or Catholics who are confused by such charges, are also reading, and every false charge should be answered for their benefit as well.

Again, this is a discussion, not a “false charge”. Some people just can’t handle valid non-Catholic and completely biblical points. This is why I voluntarily left the DCF forum and I can see it is why I will soon have to do the same here - indeed I RARELY post for this reason.

If only you people would give some consideration to the fact that I am here b/c I am NOT 100% pursuaded. I am giving you my non-Catholic thoughts on the subject so I can see if they stand! So far they do (IMO). But I’m still open to discussing it until I am more resolved - either way.

This really is the only avenue I know of to get many differing p.o.v. that directly address my concerns. Don’t blow it for me (and yourselves). If I cannot be convinced to return to Catholicism (partially) b/c everyone here insisted on attacking me and making false accusations you will have to answer for my soul.

So quit compaining and start talking! I am serious!!!

 

[wanner47]

JoytobeCatholic - I have an ultrasound picture of the baby I lost in a special picture frame. It sits on my desk and I look at it daily, often saying a prayer for him/her as I do so. Should I destroy it since it is only a likeness of my deceased child? What about pictures of my living children – should I destroy them too, since they are only likenesses? As you say, it is forbidden by God to have a likeness of any living thing. What do you think?

Also – you could change your username and put “formerly JoytobeCatholic” in your signature so people don’t get confused. That’s what I did on another forum after a name change. Just a suggestion.

Quoting this post again in case it was missed… JoytobeCatholic, I really, sincerely would like your opinion on this matter.

 

[VociMike]

So quit compaining and start talking! I am serious!!!

Then deal with the prohibition of making any likeness.

And deal with the fact that when God became Incarnate, he condemned every Christian to idolatry because no Christian can avoid making a mental image of Jesus Christ.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

“You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.”

Pretty explicit. Not just graven images are prohibited, but any likeness of any thing. Do you carry money around? Do you have photos? Do you watch movies or TV? The list of likenesses is endless.

Did Jesus rebuke anyone for possessing money? He had the opportunity when posed the question about paying taxes. He clearly doesn’t have a problem with us using such things for every day purposes. I don’t bow to, etc. the images on my money. I don’t plaster my walls with photos or carry wallet pictures to show off my loved ones to others. I don’t watch any media (except what is in view when others have it on), in fact I only use the computer for this purpose for the most part and am leaning away from using it altogether. But regardless, Jesus clearly doesn’t condemn the use of all images, so I don’t see your point.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Quoting this post again in case it was missed… JoytobeCatholic, I really, sincerely would like your opinion on this matter.

No problem. I’ve kinda skipped around and gotten carried away with some other posts. I will comment…

 

[VociMike]

Did Jesus rebuke anyone for possessing money? He had the opportunity when posed the question about paying taxes. He clearly doesn’t have a problem with us using such things for every day purposes. I don’t bow to, etc. the images on my money. I don’t plaster my walls with photos or carry wallet pictures to show off my loved ones to others. I don’t watch any media (except what is in view when others have it on), in fact I only use the computer for this purpose for the most part and am leaning away from using it altogether. But regardless, Jesus clearly doesn’t condemn the use of all images, so I don’t see your point.

My point, I don’t know how to make it more clear, is that you insist on taking some of the prohibition against idols literally, but other parts of that same prohibition you do not take literally. You are selective in what you take literally and what you do not take literally, so that you can find fault with Catholics while exonerating yourself and other Christians.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Answered above. No one is adoring any images there.Not true. Only if one chooses to accept your butchered and twisted interpretation of a passage of the Word of God.Which I think is better than some broken off twig, (you) and a few others like you trying to offer some twisted and butchered interpretation that seeks to indict the Church that Christ Himself instituted for something that patently does not happen in the church. But you don’t wanna hear that because it pulls the teeth out of your a-C propaganda.There is no heresy of any kind in authentic and authoritative Catholic teaching.

But there is the problem of the definitive and fundamental heresy of Sola Scriptura which causes seriously messed up interpretations like this one and the myriad of others that cascade down from it and the divisions that it causes even among its own adherents.

Iconoclasm: Or: Catholics Worship Graven Images NOT

No response is needed here. Your posts blatantly reveal everything I could possibly point out as wrong… May God have mercy on you brother.

Peace,

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

equating the Rosary to any sort “mind opening” mediations is a false assumption as is your version of “idol worship”.

Although I don’t believe we should pray to mary, I likewise do not feel that rosary meditations are that kind of meditation/contemplation I was speaking of.

I know you did not even mention the Rosary. I just wanted to share my experience because…well,I just love to talk about the Rosary and how one can get their focus on Jesus.

If you feel you need to leave the Catholic Church then go ahead. Maybe you are seeking and feel in your heart that you are truly making the right decision. Maybe it is the right decision. Maybe God had bigger plans. Maybe God is sending you out with full intentions of bringing you back. Maybe you will bring other back with you. But then again,you may find what you think you are looking for. Who am I to say. I just pray that God keeps you safe.

In Christ, Tim

Thank you so much. I truly appreciate that :hug1:

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

You still trying to “save” Catholics? Where do Evangelicals learn this stuff? No statue worship. Next question.

Intentionally ignored…

Lord have mercy on you.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

To those who falsly accuse me of evangelizing and being anti-Catholic (and those who lurk and agree with them):

LOOK AT MY POSTING HISTORY AND SEE HOW OFTEN I AM ON HERE.

If I’m on a quest to “save Catholics” I’m not making a very good effort!!!

 

[lak611]

They all say the same thing. Bowing is an expression of adoration lest that be your specific problem with the wording.

So are people in Asian countries idolators because they bow when they greet each other? Is it idolatry to bow to the Queen of England? Are actors committing idolatry when they bow to their audience at the conclusion of a play?

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Let’s see. I just got married a year and a half ago. I loved the day, but it was a blur. I look at my pictures to focus my thinking a little bit on what different things I want to remember out of the day. But that’s not the best example.

I’ll use this. I love my baby son. Sometimes I just like to sit there and think about what a miracle he is. Sometimes it’s so hard to believe that God would “loan” me this amazing creature, and how he chose to do it is amazing too! SOMETIMES I like to look at him when I think about this b/c it just makes the thought that much more concrete. So I’ll sit and just look at him sometimes when he’s playing and think about it. But, sometimes he’s sleeping. And I still like to think about it, but he’s a baaaaaad sleeper, and there’s no way I want to go in there and wake him up. So, I’ll look up on my wall, where I have a picture of him hanging. I’ll smile at the picture. Sometimes I even say “I love you” right then and there when I’m looking at the picture. My son is upstairs in his bed, do you really think I think I’m saying I love you to a picture? I’m saying it to my son, but I can’t see him at the moment, and the picture is right there and it’s making me think about him to look at it, so I say “I love you”, or “you’re the cutest baby ever born”, but do you really think I’m saying all this to a piece of paper and a wooden frame? My feelings for him can be brought about just by thinking about him, but looking at the picture just makes me feel them a little bit more concretely. Looking at him himself would make me feel them even MORE concretely. All of this doesn’t mean I can’t think of him without seeing him visually or any visual representation of him, I just like to. It’s just a preference. Something I like to do. And I don’t think that I HAVE to think about him more concretely either.

I like your example, but I don’t know if it is a good parallel. You aren’t treating the picture with the same reverence and honor you would to God: bowing etc. to it. And you are not using it during worship. I have a personal dislike for having photos around the house, so maybe I can’t appreciate it the way you seem to.

Blessings~