Idols

[dmelosi]

Just trying to find out if CM is an official spokesperson for RC’s on this forum or indeed if CM has any authority to give interpretation on the Sacred Scriptures and this because of what CM is stating in posts in this tread.

As I thought, you are changing the subject. The problem with your line of thought is that you are the one here trying to interpret scripture.

There are over 33,000 protestant denominations, each with a little different interpretation…doesnt that strike you as odd?

 

[FCEGM]

1161 All the signs in the liturgical celebrations are related to Christ: as are sacred images of the holy Mother of God and of the saints as well. They truly signify Christ, who is glorified in them. They make manifest the “cloud of witnesses”[29] who continue to participate in the salvation of the world and to whom we are united, above all in sacramental celebrations. Through their icons, it is man “in the image of God,” finally transfigured “into his likeness,”[30] who is revealed to our faith. So too are the angels, who also are recapitulated in Christ: Following the divinely inspired teaching of our holy Fathers and the tradition of the Catholic Church (for we know that this tradition comes from the Holy Spirit who dwells in her) we rightly define with full certainty and correctness that, like the figure of the precious and life-giving cross, venerable and holy images of our Lord and God and Savior, Jesus Christ, our inviolate Lady, the holy Mother of God, and the venerated angels, all the saints and the just, whether painted or made of mosaic or another suitable material, are to be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on sacred vessels and vestments, walls and panels, in houses and on streets.[31]

1162 The beauty of the images moves me to contemplation, as a meadow delights the eyes and subtly infuses the soul with the glory of God."[32] Similarly, the contemplation of sacred icons, united with meditation on the Word of God and the singing of liturgical hymns, enters into the harmony of the signs of celebration so that the mystery celebrated is imprinted in the heart’s memory and is then expressed in the new life of the faithful.

2129 The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. Deuteronomy explains: “Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure…”[66] It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. “He is the all,” but at the same time “he is greater than all his works.”[67] He is “the author of beauty.”[68]

2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.[69]

2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new “economy” of images.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and “whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.”[70] The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone: Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.[71]

2141 The veneration of sacred images is based on the mystery of the Incarnation of the Word of God. It is not contrary to the first commandment.

continued. . .

 

[FCEGM]

Veneration of Holy Images an Apostolic Letter by Pope John Paul II.

“The believer of today, like the one yesterday, must be helped in his prayer and spiritual life by seeing works that attempt to express the mystery [of faith] and never hide it. That is why today, as in the past, faith is the necessary inspiration of Church art… Authentic Christian art is that which, through sensible perception, gives the intuition that the Lord is present in his Church, that the events of salvation history give meaning and orientation to our life, that the glory that is promised us already transforms our existence. Sacred art must tend to offer us a visual synthesis of all dimensions of our faith.”

Pope John Paul II Letter to Artists, 1999.

The Church needs art.

"12. In order to communicate the message entrusted to her by Christ, the Church needs art. Art must make perceptible, and as far as possible attractive, the world of the spirit, of the invisible, of God. It must therefore translate into meaningful terms that which is in itself ineffable. Art has a unique capacity to take one or other facet of the message and translate it into colours, shapes and sounds which nourish the intuition of those who look or listen. It does so without emptying the message itself of its transcendent value and its aura of mystery.

The Church has need especially of those who can do this on the literary and figurative level, using the endless possibilities of images and their symbolic force. Christ himself made extensive use of images in his preaching, fully in keeping with his willingness to become, in the Incarnation, the icon of the unseen God."

Since you claim to be a Catholic, to believe contrariwise to what the Church teaches is to sin against the Catholic Faith preserved in all matters of Faith and Morals by the authority of Christ’s Church. Further, to publically air your disagreement with the Church on this or any other doctrine of the Faith is to compound the sin. Pridefully persisting in this sin and siding with the heretical iconoclasts condemned by the Council of Nicaea places your soul in grave danger.

 

[Asa]

A better question would be who are you (as some kind of n-C/a-C) to interpret Catholic teachings and to then argue with us when we offer you accurately factual explanations? Do you then have the authority to speak for all n-Cs? I doubt that.

Moreover, when we have cited authoritative and authentic Catholic documents by way explanation, then why are you not reading them for yourself to see if we have told you the truth and to see if perhaps we know better than you think we do? If your purpose is just polemics, then you are not sincerely seeking truth but here for some other agenda. No telling yet…

It’s a 100% true fact that im not a spokesperson for all n-c’s.

Are you a spokesperson for all the RC’s on this forum and if you aren’t then you better remove your previous comments which suggest you are a spokeperson for all the RC’s on this forum.

Also is your interpretation of the Sacred Scriptures official RCC teaching??

 

[Church_Militant]

We accidentally worship an image in the first place, when start making them, that is our first big mistake.

Thank you Pope Planter654 I.

The problem here is that there is no “big mistake” as I have already shown here along with many of my Catholic brothers and sisters.

So if they are not worshiped then, why are they in God’s House of Prayer in the first place? Why do we BLESS them if we do not worship them?

Show me where we worship these images. You can’t because your whole point is not true to begin with.

I can’t see where you get any of this from being a Catholic that knows anything about what the Church actually teaches. Your remarks are highly suspect.

 

[planter654]

If you say so…I personally don’t much care if you call yourself a taxi cab so long as when you enter an apologetic discussion you stick to the topic and help explain and defend the Catholic faith instead of taking some whacked out semi protestant position.I’m sorry, but this is dumb. If you took the time to look around at images of Our Lord from all over the world you would very quickly see that in most countries they reflect the people that live there. Your remark that “ALL” are white is about ludicrously inaccurate.

I am on topic and you know that I am and God is my witness. I am not bashing any one. It is about idols, statues etc. I ask why are they all white and painted white and with no disrespect all white in the Vatian paintings in the ceilings that is “God Church” to all the world is it not? And in the Catholic Bible, pictures and in all Catholic Books etc etc. Blacks live in the United States, Canada etc. So do Mexicans or what ever nationalty.WE are all created in God’s Image.

So why are idols or images, paintings etc white?

 

[planter654]

If you say so…I personally don’t much care if you call yourself a taxi cab so long as when you enter an apologetic discussion you stick to the topic and help explain and defend the Catholic faith instead of taking some whacked out semi protestant position.I’m sorry, but this is dumb. If you took the time to look around at images of Our Lord from all over the world you would very quickly see that in most countries they reflect the people that live there. Your remark that “ALL” are white is about ludicrously inaccurate.

Are you bashing Protestants? We are talking about Idols stay on the topic please. I told you I am Catholic! So why are you calling me a Protestant? Who is bashing who my dear Catholic friend?

 

[Church_Militant]

It’s a 100% true fact that im not a spokesperson for all n-c’s.

Are you a spokesperson for all the RC’s on this forum and if you aren’t then you better remove your previous comments which suggest you are a spokeperson for all the RC’s on this forum.

Also is your interpretation of the Sacred Scriptures official RCC teaching??

I have never purported myself to be an official anything …however. You asked Catholics and you got Catholics, and now you want to divert attention from the fact that we have answered you and you can’t handle it?

I frankly could care less what you think of me one way or another, but the fact is that you have offered nothing but your opinion and it’s been refuted, so get back on topic or walk away from the discussion.

 

[Wholly_Spirit]

Just trying to find out if CM is an official spokesperson for RC’s on this forum or indeed if CM has any authority to give interpretation on the Sacred Scriptures and this because of what CM is stating in posts in this tread.

CM isn’t stating anything that is contrary to Catholic teaching. When he does, we’ll let him know about it. On the otherhand, what you are stating does go against Catholic teaching and we’re letting you know about it.

 

[gaberdeen]

I am on topic and you know that I am and God is my witness. I am not bashing any one. It is about idols, statues etc. I ask why are they all white and painted white and with no disrespect all white in the Vatian paintings in the ceilings that is “God Church” to all the world is it not? And in the Catholic Bible, pictures and in all Catholic Books etc etc. Blacks live in the United States, Canada etc. So do Mexicans or what ever nationalty.WE are all created in God’s Image.

So why are idols or images, paintings etc white?

That’s strange the parish I belong to is called Blessed Kateri an american Indian. Definitly not “white”

God Bless
gary

 

[Asa]

I have never purported myself to be an official anything

If it’s a 100% true fact that you are not a spokesperson for all the RC’s on this forum then STOP trying to speak on behalf of all the RC’s on this forum!

Also i notice you refused to answer if you have the authority to interpret Sacred Scriptures.

 

[Church_Militant]

I am on topic and you know that I am and God is my witness. I am not bashing any one. It is about idols, statues etc. I ask why are they all white and painted white and with no disrespect all white in the Vatian paintings in the ceilings that is “God Church” to all the world is it not? And in the Catholic Bible, pictures and in all Catholic Books etc etc. Blacks live in the United States, Canada etc. So do Mexicans or what ever nationalty.WE are all created in God’s Image.

So why are idols

or images, paintings etc white?Haven’t seen any “idols” at all in any Catholic Church.

As for racial images of Jesus…look around in other countries and you’ll find plenty.

 

[Church_Militant]

If it’s a 100% true fact that you are not a spokesperson for all the RC’s on this forum then STOP trying to speak on behalf of all the RC’s on this forum!

Deal with it or don’t but quit your :crying: :crying: :crying:

Also i notice you refused to answer if you have the authority to interpret Sacred Scriptures.

I have as much of that as you do…

 

[Asa]

Deal with it or don’t but quit your :crying: :crying: :crying:

I have as much of that as you do…

You don’t half cry, hope you don’t flood your place!

BTW you still need to remove your comments re your speaking on behalf of all the RC’s on this forum.

 

[Church_Militant]

You don’t half cry, hope you don’t flood your place!

BTW you still need to remove your comments re your speaking on behalf of all the RC’s on this forum.

Only as misconstrued by you…therefore I will not.

 

[planter654]

My concrete Madonna was to difficult to paint, so I just spray painted her white. Am I glorifying the concrete industry? What the heck are you driving at? This goes to the top of “the most ridiculous posts.”

Yes,I am Catholic and I find with in my family of Catholics they do not like the topic of idols. It is not a ridiculous posts considering idols we are told, we are forbidden to crave, make as it is written in the bible. It is a serious matter at least for me for I look at it as a sin. The topic is about idols, if I disagree what is an idol then they call me a Protestant and they bash me. Very confusing to me as a Catholic, a child of God to hear this.

God Bless

 

[dmelosi]

Yes,I am Catholic and I find with in my family of Catholics they do not like the topic of idols. It is not a ridiculous posts considering idols we are told, we are forbidden to crave, make as it is written in the bible. It is a serious matter at least for me for I look at it as a sin. The topic is about idols, if I disagree what is an idol then they call me a Protestant and they bash me. Very confusing to me as a Catholic, a child of God to hear this.

God Bless

The Catholic Church is very clear about this in its teachings.
How is it confusing?

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Why are there ONLY A “WHITE IMAGES IN THE CATHOLIC” CHURCH, AND YES I AM CATHOLIC BUT LATELY I WOULD LIKE TO RATHER CALL MYSELF… A LITTLE CHILD OF GOD.

Only white? Like this one? This is an ancient icon of Our Lady Czestochowa in Poland. The legend says that it was painted by St. Luke the Evangelist himself.

http://www.avenatravel.pl/img/black_madonna_shrine.jpg

There are different typed of statues and images in the Church. Many you will see are white, but that’s mainly because you live in a white men dominated society. If you go to Africa you will encounter that Jesus is depicted with a darker skin. The truth is probably somewhere between.

The point it: it’s cultural.

http://www.copticchurch.net/cgibin/gallery/albums/Jesus/jesus_02.jpg

Here you have a Coptic icon. Copts are christians from Middle East and North Africa and are either Catholic or Orthodox. Can you see the difference?

Jesus probably looked liked this (close your eyes all you iconclasts ):

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/net/20050129/capt.981f9c1f2bc4bfb5f6040814458e6ccd

This is taken from the Shroud of Tourin, which is widely believed to be Jesus’ burial shroud.

Now, you say that you’re Catholic, but really aren’t. Plus what you seem to suggest is a condemn heresy called iconoclasm.

God bless

 

[Asa]

Only white? Like this one? This is an ancient icon of Our Lady Czestachovoa in Poland. The legend says that it was paineted by St. Mark himself.

http://www.avenatravel.pl/img/black_madonna_shrine.jpg

There are different typed of statues and images in the Church. Many you will see are white, but that’s mainly because you live in a white men dominated society. If you go to Africa you will encounter that Jesus is depicted with a darker skin. The truth is probably somewhere between.

The point it: it’s cultural.

http://www.copticchurch.net/cgibin/...Dir=./Jesus&pageType=image&image=jesus_02.jpg

Here you have a Coptic icon. Copts are christians from Middle East and North Africa and are either Catholic or Orthodox. Can you see the difference?

Jesus probably looked liked this (close your eyes all you iconclasts ):

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:SudarioFace.jpg

This is taken from the Shroud of Tourin, which is widely believed to be Jesus’ burial shroud.

Now, you say that you’re Catholic, but really aren’t. Plus what you seem to suggest is a condemn heresy called iconoclasm.

God bless

Is there no inspired info from the pope as to what color mary is??

 

[planter654]

guess you’ve never heard of St. Martin de Porres, or of Our Lady of Guadalupe, or of St. Kateri Tekakwitha, St. Josephine Bakhita, St. Peter Claver, St. Benedict the Moor, St. Augustine (North African), St. Charles Lwanga and Companions, St. Moses the Black, St. Juan Diego, Bl. Miguel Pro, the 27 Mexican Saints canonized in 2000, St. Andrew Kim Taegon of Korea and his martyr Companions, etc., etc.

Council of Trent:

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

continued. . .

Thank you! Who ever you are. I have read it all what you have spoken, I am a Catholic, I am a very little child of God and this has bothered me for a while now. We are always searching to know, seek, ask to do all that pleases God. When I saw the post Idols I thought finally I can ask, but I do not what to be afraid in asking this is why I am on this site do you understand. We go home to seek the truth for it is a Catholic web site. thank you again.

God Bless Thank you very much and I promise I will re-read again.