Idols

[ElizabethPH]

Elizabeth. My whole intention in starting this thread wasn’t to make any claims. I simply asked why Catholics “adore” or “venerate” images. The only reply i’ve had is that it helps or inspires people in some way. I personally find this hard to believe because a block of marble or stone doesn’t have any of those effects on me.

William Churchill was a great man but I’d be abhorred if i saw someone prostrating themselves in front of a statue of him. Same with the a statue of Mary or the Saints… We’ll all just have to disagree on this, i think.

On the contrary in your OP the first thing you claim is a lie that Catholics practice idolatry. OK I’ll just go along with you that you weren’t claiming anything. Your ‘questions’ were still answered.

Mary and the Saints are not the same as Winston Churchill

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Is there no inspired info from the pope as to what color mary is??

No!
Are you being serious?

 

[Asa]

No!
Are you being serious?

Is God the author of confusion??

 

[ElizabethPH]

Yes,I am Catholic and I find with in my family of Catholics they do not like the topic of idols. It is not a ridiculous posts considering idols we are told, we are forbidden to crave, make as it is written in the bible. It is a serious matter at least for me for I look at it as a sin. The topic is about idols, if I disagree what is an idol then they call me a Protestant and they bash me. Very confusing to me as a Catholic, a child of God to hear this.

God Bless

Again in the link I provided it addresses this; maybe you’ll want to read the whole article. But I’ll include what it says about the Catholic Church condemning idolatry.

'Idolatry Condemned by the Church
Since the days of the apostles, the Catholic Church has consistently condemned the sin of idolatry. The early Church Fathers warn against this sin, and Church councils also dealt with the issue.

The Second Council of Nicaea (787), which dealt largely with the question of the religious use of images and icons, said, “[T]he one who redeemed us from the darkness of idolatrous insanity, Christ our God, when he took for his bride his holy Catholic Church . . . promised he would guard her and assured his holy disciples saying, ‘I am with you every day until the consummation of this age.’ . . . To this gracious offer some people paid no attention; being hoodwinked by the treacherous foe they abandoned the true line of reasoning . . . and they failed to distinguish the holy from the profane, asserting that the icons of our Lord and of his saints were no different from the wooden images of satanic idols.”

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed “by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them” (374).

“Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’” (CCC 2114).

The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry. What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible.’

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Is God the author of confusion??

What? What are you getting at?

Let me guess, are you going to have jab at the Church because She didn’t solemnly declare what’s Blessed Mary’s skin colour? I hope not, because that would be very silly.

Mary’s skin colour is not a matter of faith. Nor is the colour of Jesus’ underwear and his favourity type of bread.

EDIT: But now that we are at it, this is a good quesiton to a protestant because protestanticism is divided into cca. 30,000 denominations.

 

[planter654]

The Catholic Church is very clear about this in its teachings.
How is it confusing?

It is confusing because when I go into our church this is what I see and going into others also. I could never bring it up or ask right out face to face because maybe I was afraid of offending or disrecpting. Look what happened here, whow!! The more I looked the more I saw. When I go and get Catholic Books to read on the saints or what ever it just came one day came to me. I started praying about it asking God because I wanted to know why and teach me so that I would not be deceived, led me to where you want me to go and here I am. Also in every Catholic Church I have ever attended I never saw not one of my Black brothers and sisters and wondering why. I have read alot on this site and thought or my God such bashing back and forth why? I thought this site was about asking, keep asking till you understand. Express etc. But thank you very much.

But we never talk about it or things like this at mass in a sermon you know what I mean. Some times maybe not to you but for me it was a hard question to ask because what does God image really mean so I read, read read the bible. I know what it means now, so this was the next step I was at.


God Bless who ever posted those pictures I just cannot say I love you all for doing that and teaching and helping me you have given me a beautiful gift…peace a little child of God.

 

[grandfather]

I own a full length 14 foot transparency of the Shroud of Turin. A good friend is a pastor at a Protestant Church nearby. He asked me if I would set it up in his sanctuary. I did. It took several hours. It is backlit. Jesus’ battered face is clearly visible. The blood soaked wounds in His side and hands are as well. The wounds of the scourging on His back are terrible. Truly, this inspires devotion to Jesus. After I had it set up and lit I sat down in front of it to look at it. The pastor and another minister came and sat next to me, one on each side and we sat silently and looked at the IMAGE, perhaps miraculously made by heaven. After a long time one minister said, “I can not take my eyes off His face”. After the image was there for a few weeks I removed it. It was much appreciated by the entire congregation. They asked me to come and speak to them about the Shroud and its history. Clearly this was an aide to increase devotion to Jesus and His Passion, and an inspiration.

Studies have been done comparing the face on the Shroud to the face on Eastern icons. There are clear similarities. I think every Christian must wonder what Jesus looked like? If we had a photograph of Him we would know.

If one wants to take the position that images made by the hands of man are idols and forbidden by God, then we should have no photos of our loved ones. We should not make any of them or have as a keepsake a photo of a departed mother or father or relative to remind us of them. They are graven images.

To say that keeping these as reminders to bring our loved ones to remembrance is idolatry, is completely ludicrous. Protestants must realize this, since they keep photos. Going a step further, a depiction of an animal, a deer or a frog, or bird as a garden ornament is a graven image. How about a picture of Mickey Mouse on a tee shirt. Anyone who would have any kind of image is an idolator, since God forbids it.

Some years ago a Catholic man I know had a print of a painting of Mary in his dorm room. When a Protestant friend visited him, the Protestant asked why he worshipped Mary. My stupified friend said, why do you think I worship Mary. The answer was the picture. The picture proved He worshipped Mary. How can you even reply to something this crazy? When my Catholic friend visited the Protestant’s room, on the wall was a full length picture of Bette Midler semi-dressed.

 

[Asa]

What? What are you getting at?

Let me guess, are you going to have jab at the Church because She didn’t solemnly declare what’s Blessed Mary’s skin colour? I hope not, because that would be very silly.

Mary’s skin colour is not a matter of faith. Nor is the colour of Jesus’ underwear and his favourity type of bread.

EDIT: But now that we are at it, this is a good quesiton to a protestant because protestanticism is divided into cca. 30,000 denominations.

So you missed the point, well the point is that because God is not the author of confusion and the man made images of mary are totally confused. Then this is clear evidence that these images are not of God because He is NOT the author of confusion. So these images of Mary are in fact false man made images.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

It is confusing because when I go into our church this is what I see and going into others also. I could never bring it up or ask right out face to face because maybe I was afraid of offending or disrecpting. Look what happened here, whow!! The more I looked the more I saw. When I go and get Catholic Books to read on the saints or what ever it just came one day came to me. I started praying about it asking God because I wanted to know why and teach me so that I would not be deceived, led me to where you want me to go and here I am. Also in every Catholic Church I have ever attended I never saw not one of my Black brothers and sisters and wondering why. I have read alot on this site and thought or my God such bashing back and forth why? I thought this site was about asking, keep asking till you understand. Express etc. But thank you very much.

But we never talk about it or things like this at mass in a sermon you know what I mean. Some times maybe not to you but for me it was a hard question to ask because what does God image really mean so I read, read read the bible. I know what it means now, so this was the next step I was at.


God Bless who ever posted those pictures I just cannot say I love you all for doing that and teaching and helping me you have given me a beautiful gift…peace a little child of God.

No problem and sorry for being a bit harsh. I think you are being too sensitive to skin colour and see racial discriminations in things where it doesn’t exist. As I said, the simple fact is that in white cultures people will not tend to paint black people. Not because they thing white is better then black…simply because that’s the way it’s done. Chinese usually painting style pictures asian looking figures. You will sometimes find traces of this style even in Christian art in China.

http://biblia.com/apparitions/virgin-peking-117.jpg

Also this is the miraculous image of Our Lady of Guadalupe. This actually reflects the Mexican Indian tradions:

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/9/95/275px-Virgen_de_guadalupe2.jpg

God bless. Trust Jesus and so trust His Church.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

So you missed the point, well the point is that because God is not the author of confusion and the man made images of mary are totally confused. Then this is clear evidence that these images are not of God because He is NOT the author of confusion. So these images of Mary are in fact false man made images.

Well, no one here ever claimed that they are God-inspired images and that they represent exactly how mary looked like 2000 years ago. This is extemelly easy to see in case of eastern icons. Eastern icons are greatly symbolic and are not trying to depict the reality of how people looked like but rather the spiritial reality. Look at the icon of the Virgin Mary with baby Jesus and observe how simple and unrealistic she looks.

http://www.assumptionlb.org/images/virgin_mary_icon.jpg

The whole argument you present is a logical falacy. You first make a false assumption and then argue agaist it. But this doesn’t effect the actual reality.

 

[SoonerforChrist]

So you missed the point, well the point is that because God is not the author of confusion and the man made images of mary are totally confused. Then this is clear evidence that these images are not of God because He is NOT the author of confusion. So these images of Mary are in fact false man made images.

well the point is that because God is not the author of confusion and the man made images of mary are totally confused.

Maybe you are confused about the beauty of art?

 

[edward_george]

But duh Catholics don’t go there. We accidentally worship an image in the first place, when start making them, that is our first big mistake. So if they are not worshiped then, why are they in God’s House of Prayer in the first place? Why do we BLESS them if we do not worship them?

When something is blessed, it is set aside for a sacred purpose. The sacred purpose that images (and music and texts, for that matter) are set aside for is that of lifting our thoughts to God, causing us to be placed in a more proper disposition for prayer.

-ACEGC

 

[planter654]

Thank you again we all have our doubts at one time or another, we are all tested, but what is important I feel I passed mine on this one, till another one comes along. Do you ever find that I wake up and God is my first thought and my last I can pray pray all day and then you wonder why someone, or something out of the blue just upsets you or whatever. I know I am off topic I hope this one is done once and for all.

Mark and Lukes paintings look idential

Thank you very much God Bless

 

[planter654]

When something is blessed, it is set aside for a sacred purpose. The sacred purpose that images (and music and texts, for that matter) are set aside for is that of lifting our thoughts to God, causing us to be placed in a more proper disposition for prayer.

-ACEGC

Thank you Edward…I love you for helping me and caring enough to give a beautiful answer. God Bless

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Mark and Lukes paintings look idential

That was my mistake. I first thought it was Mark but then I checked and realized that it was Luke. So I changed it but it was already quoted before I manged to save the changes. As I said, it’s only a legend (and I don’t know if there is any recent scientific finding to confirm or reject this hypothesis) but I think that if would be great if it was true.

Anyways, God bless!

 

[revelations]

sonsoftheprophets.blogspot.com/2007/11/martin-luther-on-use-of-images-part-1.html

That’s a dialog of Martin Luther vs. reformer fundamentalist on images in church.

The key part i think is
*
In regards to Paul in Acts 28:11 Luther believed that Luke placed this story into the text to show that outward things could do no harm to a believers faith so long as they were not trusted in.

*I know i certainly don’t trust only in the crucifix at XYZ cathedral… i trust in Jesus

 

[planter654]

Again in the link I provided it addresses this; maybe you’ll want to read the whole article. But I’ll include what it says about the Catholic Church condemning idolatry.

'Idolatry Condemned by the Church
Since the days of the apostles, the Catholic Church has consistently condemned the sin of idolatry. The early Church Fathers warn against this sin, and Church councils also dealt with the issue.

The Second Council of Nicaea (787), which dealt largely with the question of the religious use of images and icons, said, “[T]he one who redeemed us from the darkness of idolatrous insanity, Christ our God, when he took for his bride his holy Catholic Church . . . promised he would guard her and assured his holy disciples saying, ‘I am with you every day until the consummation of this age.’ . . . To this gracious offer some people paid no attention; being hoodwinked by the treacherous foe they abandoned the true line of reasoning . . . and they failed to distinguish the holy from the profane, asserting that the icons of our Lord and of his saints were no different from the wooden images of satanic idols.”

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed “by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them” (374).

“Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’” (CCC 2114).

The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry. What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible.’

God Bless but I am not anti Catholic my husband was an alter boy all his life, we went to the same church. His mother was the organist who served more than one mass a day. My mother was a singer solo. The priest and parish loved her voice, her Ava Marie made you cry. She always sang solo at mid-night mass. Or any mass.
My grandfather always sat in the first row until his death even crawled in so please do not call me anything but Catholic.

God Bless love you all … VERY.litttle child of God

God Bless

God Bless

 

[guanophore]

Although I’m not going to go on a long tirade about how the Roman Catholics practice Idolatry - only because I know the replies I’ll get -

Well, for all that, you still did a pretty good job!

I still want to bring up the subject of idols which (although I am a Protestant) is the only aspect of Roman Catholicism that seriously upsets me.

What you believe is not Catholicism. It is a misperception of it.

What I wanted to ask was, if you have statues of Mary, Christ, the saints etc either in your home or local Church, do you consider them “idols”?

If by that you mean that the images have power in themselves, of course not. Do you have a picture of your grandparents in your house, or someone else you care about? Do you call it an “idol”?

“Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.” -Ezekiel 14:6

Do you believe it is an abomination to God to have a statue of His Mother?

Second question. Why do people kneel down in front of these statues?

Why do some people kneel beside their bed to pray? Why do the soldiers patrol and “unknown soldiers” tomb? Why does the President lay a wreath there every Memorial day? Is he worshipping and idol?

Why do they kiss them? In short, what is the point of them?

I think for the same reason people might kiss a photo of a loved one. The image puts the person who is loved in mind and in heart.

Since you think this is a “Roman Catholic” problem, I suggest you to over to the Eastern forum, and ask them the same question. You will soon find it has nothing to do with Rome.

I know Catholics like to replace the word “worship” for “adoration” or “veneration” but why adore an image?

You are clearly mixed up with your terminology and your lack of understanding of devotional practices. Catholics (Roman and otherwise) do not worship, venerate, or adore any images.

I know that Catholics also say that the veneration shown to an image is somehow magically transmitted to the subject of the image. What is the basis for this assumption? It seems like mysticism to me.

I have never heard of anything like this at all. In fact, I would say that a person believing in “magical transmutation” is probably not Catholic at all, or a Catholic who is very misguided and poorly catechized.

What is the problem with mysticism? Do you think mysticism is unchristain?

I’d just like to add something I read from Tertullian. The Romanists seem to put a lot of stock in what the Church Fathers said so here goes:

What is a “Romanist”? This is an insulting term, I think. And non-Roman Catholics put as much stock in the Fathers as the others.

"The principal crime of the human race, the highest guilt charged upon the world, the whole procuring cause of judgment -- is idolatry. God prohibits an idol as much to be made as to be worshipped." (Tertullian, ANF 3:61, 62)

Interesting that Tertullian was in one of those churches full of statues and such…wonder why he did not think they were idols?

“Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.” Leviticus 26:1

If you recall, Moses directed the Israelites to create many graven images. You may also recall that, when he came down from the mountain, Aaron had said to the people “here is the god that brought you out of Egypt”, about the golden calf. You will not hear any Catholics saying that the statues have done anything, because they have no power in themselves. An idol is something that people believe has power in itself, like money, and status.

Anyway, I’ve noticed a lot of venom on this forum. And speaking as a fairly zealous Protestant I also know that there are many zealous Catholics who love to defend their faith and beliefs, but when a Christian’s beliefs go so far beyond and against the commands of God as in this case I honsestly struggle to understand it.

Well, I guess it is good you are struggling to understand. that is the beginning of wisdom. I hope you can put up with the zealous Catholics long enough to learn what we really believe.

 

[Church_Militant]

God Bless but I am not anti Catholic my husband was an alter boy all his life, we went to the same church. His mother was the organist who served more than one mass a day. My mother was a singer solo. The priest and parish loved her voice, her Ava Marie made you cry

. Had exactly that experience last night at Mass. The lady who sang it is the mother of a really great priest that serves a parish near here. An excellent priest at that.

 

[planter654]

One more thought before I go to sleep in peace thanking all who posted in helping me, especially at the end. I am not boasting but boasting in what I have received I am always ask to speak and do readings at funerals, weddings, in church, say grace at functions etc. be godmother etc so you can see why I kept these thoughts about this topic of idols to myself. For if you knew me personally you would never say I am anti or what ever but Catholic! I just want to do all that pleases God and seek the truth in all things. I am a sinner and I am not highly educated to such depth as some of you here. Not to offend anyone but such great knowledge gives me a headache. That is why God has sent you to me to help me in my simple way to stay on the right path. But just simple and I am a very little child of God.

Please pray for me for I shall pray and thank God for you…gives gifts are beautiful Good night Merry Christ mass