If a married person has HIV--should condoms be permitted?

[BeeSweet]

While I am not familiar enough with the case of the phillipines to comment, I don’t remember saying that condoms were more effective than abstinence. I am only arguing against the widely-repudiated condom wholes rumor.

Kendy

Point taken. I actually don’t buy into the theory about the holes either, but there’s not a doubt in my mind people don’t use them properly. User error is in my opinion probably the greatest factor in the fail of condoms, but user error is also inherent in their use! When you’re using the condom there are much much more “important” things on your mind!!! Putting the silly thing on properly at the moment you need to is a pain in the tuckus, and it’s something you’d really really rather not be doing at that moment! It’s not a wonder they’re not used correctly. Think of how often it is that folks are tipsy when they go to put one on! Simply dangerous. One of the most common user errors is putting it on backwards, realising it, and turning it over. That leaves seminal fluid on the wrong side of the condom! It’s just too easy to get it wrong, and people are pumped full of propaganda about their effectiveness that it’s a simple tragedy they believe it. Sure, they’re probably real effective in a laboratory, but I’ve never had the occasion to use one in a laboratory, and neither have most folks who use them. I just feel it’s totally irresponsible the way condoms are touted as such great protection against the disease. They should be seen as a last resort, and folks should be well aware of the dangers they carry with them. And I wholeheartedly believe that if people did not feel secure in their protection, they wouldn’t be using them willy-nilly with any old body they hook up with in a bar.

 

[BeeSweet]

Interview with Cardinal Alfonso López Trujillo
concerning condom use

… but at least it seemed to us that there was a call to attention when we read in The Guardian that the World Health Organization states, “Consistent and correct condom use reduces the risk of HIV infection by 90%”. Therefore, there is that 10% where due to different causes, a risk remains. If 10 persons out of 100 can contract an illness like this, which is mortal, what should the attitude of the Health Ministries be? And so, this is simply what I said. A warning should be put on these products, such as, “This is not safe”, or “This is not completely safe”. This is a responsibility, especially towards the poor countries.

fix, that’s great! This exact question is posed to the Cardinal during this interview.

 

[katybird]

I volunteer for a pro-life organization (a very well-respected catholic one), and while I love the work and think it’s important (We have kept thousands of women from having abortions), I am occasionally embarassed by how we stretch numbers and use studies we like while ignoring those we don’t like. So, information about condoms from a pro-life organization? Well, I am a little skeptical.

Reliable information about condoms can be found through the CDC, the World Heath Organization, and the American Medical Association.

And I will also speak from years of experience of a wildly unchaste pre-christian life. (Not to mention the experiences of my equally unchaste female friends) Condoms used correctly are very effective. Lying about it just makes us look dishonest or foolish, which does very little to help our cause in this debate.

Kendy

Kendy, I agree and have often felt the same way. I’ve heard some utterly ridiculous things bandied about - things that defy logic and all scientific research - but if you dare refute them, you’re accused of being anti-life or something.

 

[katybird]

Unlike a cancer treatment that works 90% of the time (since not treating cancer is fatal nearly 100% of the time) the person who is considering using a condom has a 100% safe alternative - abstinence. When a 100% effective alternative exists, that’s the one you should take - 100% of the time.

The birth control pill is effective 99% of the time, and we all know people who were born of mothers who were on the pill. That’s ten times the effectiveness of the condom.

Condom failure rate does not equal the rate of disease transmission. First, how does one define “failure?” If a condom breaks, but the couple does not conceive or transmit a disease, is that a failure? I think the 90% figure is based on pregnancy rates, so I’ll take that to mean that failure is understood that using a condom results in pregnancy. This can be the result of breaking, leaking, slipping off, user error (like putting it on after penetration has already occurred) and there will always be a certain percentage of innaccurate data… since these couples aren’t having sex under lab supervision, researchers have to take their word for what happened.

Now, we’re not talking about pregnancy in this thread, we’re talking about HIV. The rate of transmission in heterosexual partners may not be as high as the rate of pregnancy. I really don’t know if that’s the case, but I am under the impression that many couples have conceived children and neither the mother or the child have contracted HIV. (Magic Johnson’s wife and child are both HIV free.)

So, if the commonly accepted failure rate for condoms of 10% is based on pregnancy rates, there may be reason for a couple to decide that their odds are actually better than that. What is important is that people are given as much ACCURATE and NONBIASED information as possible so that they can make their own decisions.

Not everyone believes as we do regarding every sexual act being open to life. Since condoms don’t cause abortions the way IUD’s or the Pill does, I really think they have the right to decide for themselves what they want to do. We can show them the Truth of the Catholic faith by preaching it and by being living examples, but we can’t mandate that they do as we would have them do.

As for the OP: a Catholic cannot use a condom for any reason, even to prevent AIDS.

 

[setter]

I don’t see how education wouldn’t help lead to, if not be a crucial factor to, a conversion of heart and mind. Many times people don’t understand why what they are doing is wrong and unsafe.

Are you saying no education is beneficial to breaking the cycle? That boggles my mind.

Nothing mind boggling proposed here. A simple reminder as Catholics to not lose or confuse the distinction of the trees for the forest.

 

[fix]

Not everyone believes as we do regarding every sexual act being open to life. Since condoms don’t cause abortions the way IUD’s or the Pill does, I really think they have the right to decide for themselves what they want to do. We can show them the Truth of the Catholic faith by preaching it and by being living examples, but we can’t mandate that they do as we would have them do.

No ne has a right to do something that is wrong. I accept many folks do not grasp the wrongness of condomistic intercourse, but it does not follow therefore that one has a right to invent right or wrong.

I am not saying we ought to force anyone to accept the truth of morality, but that does not mean we have to cooperate in a formal way with sin. That may include such things as paying for condom distribution or voting for laws that would encourage it.

 

[setter]

Oh Setter, I was waiting for my list of quotes from the CCC

I don’t know how I have violated the dignity of anybody by saying that research about condoms holes have been repudiated and that we should not lie about how effective they are.

Kendy

The post (#53) I responded to with the pertinent CCC paragraphs pointed out that if one was operating from the Catholic understanding of the inherent dignity of each person and the Catholic mission to give credible witness in this fallen world, one would never defend condom use as serving a “greater social good”, i.e., an evil means can never produce a true greater social good. Period. To argue otherwise is to abandon a Catholic position and understanding of what constitutes “good” as contributes to preserving the dignity of man and the great commission of the Church to spread the good news to the ends of the world. I suggest reread your post in light of those CCC quotes that I offered you.

Originally Posted by Kendy
I know you may not be sensitive to this concern, but the problem with this myth about voids is that it will lead people who will have sex anyway to just be reckless. One of the main problems in Africa is that many people are running around believing that condoms are evil white man gadgets. This would be fine if these people planned to abstain, but they are not abstain. They are just making themselves and their innocent wives sick. I am not saying that in this case it is moral to use a condom. It is never moral to commit adultery, but in this particular case, condom use a greater social good.

Kendy

 

[Aleii]

…to not lose or confuse the distinction of the trees for the forest.

I still don’t understand your response. I still don’t see why you disagree that education (about the body and the church’s teachings, etc.) is a critical component to transforming one’s ways. I don’t think we should let people just go on their own and hope they one day understand why they need to change their ways, without trying education. Education is a key component to answering almost any question in life, in my opinion. I think we should always educate ourselves to obtain a better understanding of life and how to get closer to God. Isn’t education a big purpose of this forum? If you do not share this view on education, then we can just agree to disagree then.

 

[CRW]

“But in this particular case, condom use a greater social good. Kendy.” So it plays a greater social good but the soul is lost. Have we lost our priorities in life. More “safer” sex in exchange for hell? The OP “Is it immoral and a mortal sin to use a condom to protect against HIV in such a situation?” Yes it is if you are a Catholic. That is the teachings of the Catholic Church.

 

[setter]

I still don’t understand your response. I still don’t see why you disagree that education (about the body and the church’s teachings, etc.) is a critical component to transforming one’s ways. I don’t think we should let people just go on their own and hope they one day understand why they need to change their ways, without trying education. Education is a key component to answering almost any question in life, in my opinion. I think we should always educate ourselves to obtain a better understanding of life and how to get closer to God. Isn’t education a big purpose of this forum? If you do not share this view on education, then we can just agree to disagree then.

Here: Education is good under the Lordship of Jesus Christ and in the service of upholding the dignity of man and directed toward the eternal well being of each person’s soul.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Kendy, I believe I see what you are saying. Where I have issue is your equating statements regarding condom use which talk about their inutility against viruses etc. as “lies.”

People using these statements are not LYING–a lie is an untruth which is KNOWN by the person stating it to be an untruth. The vast majority if not the entirety of people who make the statements on condoms and viruses etc. actually believe those statements–thus they are not “lying.” The statement may be false (and quite frankly I am not confident enough in the WHO or the CDC et. al. to judge whether they have correctly refuted the statements to which you object–they may be right, and they may be wrong), but it is not a LIE by definition. That IMO is where you yourself have erred, in your assumption that pro-life people “LIE”.

 

[psteichen]

I disagree with an argument some of you have been making. It has been said that studies have been done that show proper use of condoms result in good rates of protection from viruses. I’m not sure I trust the sources of these studies, but lets say for the sake of argument that this is correct. Isn’t it proper to also factor in the very real fact that condoms are not always used properly?

Basing advice on condom effectiveness on perfect use is a useless statistic. Kind of like car safety. When used properly cars are very safe and rarely result in injury. But throw in inexperience, laziness, distraction, poor instruction, and human error, and now you end up with thousands of deaths on the streets of this country every week. And we’ve been teaching drivers ed in schools for many decades. So wouldn’t it be inaccurate to base public policy on the assumption that cars are safe, when real world factors show this to be a lie?

Now don’t be asking why don’t we stop using cars. We haven’t found a good replacement for them. Condoms have a 100% effective alternate solution that is 100% safe. Abstinence!

 

[fix]

I disagree with an argument some of you have been making. It has been said that studies have been done that show proper use of condoms result in good rates of protection from viruses. I’m not sure I trust the sources of these studies, but lets say for the sake of argument that this is correct. Isn’t it proper to also factor in the very real fact that condoms are not always used properly?

Basing advice on condom effectiveness on perfect use is a useless statistic. Kind of like car safety. When used properly cars are very safe and rarely result in injury. But throw in inexperience, laziness, distraction, poor instruction, and human error, and now you end up with thousands of deaths on the streets of this country every week. And we’ve been teaching drivers ed in schools for many decades. So wouldn’t it be inaccurate to base public policy on the assumption that cars are safe, when real world factors show this to be a lie?

Now don’t be asking why don’t we stop using cars. We haven’t found a good replacement for them. Condoms have a 100% effective alternate solution that is 100% safe. Abstinence!

Not only that but there seems to be an assumption that contraceptive intercourse is only prohibited for Catholics. The act is objectively sinful, no matter the intent. The ends never justify the means.

Why would those with an informed conscience not seek to help inform others. Is it morally acceptable to claim others should be enouraged to come to an immoral decision based on some statistical chance rather than good moral reasoning?

 

[mikew262]

Condoms do not stop the spread of HIV.

Huh? You might want to elaborate a little more on that.

 

[mikew262]

Nothing man-made works 100% of the time. The question is not whether is works or does not, but whether it is more or less effective than another method.

Kendy

Kendy, I agree with you 100%. Obviously, condoms are not 100% foolproof, but if used properly, are highly effective in preventing the spread of AIDs, STDs and preventing pregnancies. These are proven facts by multiple studies. Any informed person knows this.

The Catholic Church does not approve of their use, we all know that. However, to claim they are not effective at all is ridiculous. Either these folks are grossly misinformed or they just refuse to believe the facts that are out there.

Concerning the subject of this thread, I believe this is a personal decision between the married couple and God. Besides sex having the purpose of producing children, it also is a way for 2 people to express their love for one another. I believe God approves of that. Is sex necessary for a loving marriage, no, but it sure helps.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Condoms do not stop the spread of HIV.

Huh? You might want to elaborate a little more on that.

What more elaboration is needed?

It is a fact that condoms do not stop HIV infection.

If something is only 90% effective at stopping something then it does not stop it, it only limits it.

Then when we add the fact that many act like condoms are a cure and even say that sex is safe with condom use I can see how this might actually cause more HIV infection than it prevents as some people out there think that they are 100% effective.

So if you are pushing condoms as a way to stop HIV infection then you are pushing death.

 

[fix]

Concerning the subject of this thread, I believe this is a personal decision between the married couple and God. Besides sex having the purpose of producing children, it also is a way for 2 people to express their love for one another. I believe God approves of that. Is sex necessary for a loving marriage, no, but it sure helps.

God does not leave us to our own devices. He left a living authority to help guide us and keep us on track.

 

[mikew262]

What more elaboration is needed?

It is a fact that condoms do not stop HIV infection.

If something is only 90% effective at stopping something then it does not stop it, it only limits it.

Then when we add the fact that many act like condoms are a cure and even say that sex is safe with condom use I can see how this might actually cause more HIV infection than it prevents as some people out there think that they are 100% effective.

So if you are pushing condoms as a way to stop HIV infection then you are pushing death.

You’ve been presented already several well-known organizations who say otherwise. I said highly effective in preventing, not 100%. Pls re-read my post.

I agree abstinance is the best way to prevent the spread of AIDS, STDs, and prevent pregnencies. No argument. However, to say that condom use is not highly effective (not 100%) in preventing these things is wrong.

 

[Karin]

You’ve been presented already several well-known organizations who say otherwise. I said highly effective in preventing, not 100%. Pls re-read my post.

I agree abstinance is the best way to prevent the spread of AIDS, STDs, and prevent pregnencies. No argument. However, to say that condom use is not highly effective (not 100%) in preventing these things is wrong.

I dont think that even condom companies say that they prevent anything 100% …that would be false advertisment

 

[mikew262]

God does not leave us to our own devices. He left a living authority to help guide us and keep us on track.

Sorry, I stand by my original statement.