If Adam and Eve were real people but existed hundreds of thousands of years ago, then what about Noah?

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Our Church acknowledges verneralble Catherine Emmerich’s visions without question.
And she talks about “seeing” Adam created and Eve come from his rib…
How doe’s this fit in with “legend”?
🤷
View attachment 5452
And yet Our Church allows us to believe in evolution . . .

:whistle:

. . . WE CAN HAVE IT EITHER WAY.

I think we should respect either view. Either view is acceptable. And these visions aren’t contradictory, even though I’ve never heard of them, because the Church says we can believe in evolution. The CCC states that Genesis in its creation account uses figurative language. 👍
 
And yet Our Church allows us to believe in evolution . . .

:whistle:

. . . WE CAN HAVE IT EITHER WAY.

I think we should respect either view. Either view is acceptable. And these visions aren’t contradictory, even though I’ve never heard of them, because the Church says we can believe in evolution. The CCC states that Genesis in its creation account uses figurative language. 👍
Then this has to be reconciled -

Adam and Eve first parents, no polygenism, Eve from Adam, bodily immortality, etc…

I do not know what version of evolution allows for this.
 
Our Church acknowledges verneralble Catherine Emmerich’s visions without question.
And she talks about “seeing” Adam created and Eve come from his rib…
How doe’s this fit in with “legend”?
🤷
View attachment 5452
I don’t know how people see it as legend. I see it as an literal account.
 
Origin of the Human Species differs in that it shows in great detail how conventional human evolutionary theory is entirely compatible with sound Scriptural interpretation and traditional theology. The book’s preface was written by Dr. Michael Behe.
I haven’t read the book, but assuming that it is based on the same sort of thinking that is to be found in your essay “MUST HUMAN EVOLUTION CONTRADICT GENESIS?”, then, although I applaud your attempt to reconcile Holy Scripture with what we know scientifically, I have to say that much of your speculation is commonplace. Moreover it is inconsistent with what we know from the study of the human genome
Many Christian thinkers will say that evolution can, in principle, be comported with Christian belief, but the “crunch” comes when you ask them about Adam and Eve and Original Sin. Unless some concrete solution as to how Original Sin as an actual sin of an actual individual can be reconciled with evolutionary science, the claim that evolution fits with Christian belief rings hollow. That is what I attempt to do in my book. And again, for those who wish to see exactly how such a reconciliation may be possible, take a look at my book’s web site at www.drbonnette.com , where you will find two complete articles on the left side of the home page – published articles which present a possible scenario for such detailed resolution of the “evolution/Adam” problem.
There are many points that we can agree on. However, there are several places where I think you fall short of making your case. Let’s look at three different sorts of error in your thinking.

First of all, you propose the emergence of the Acheulean culture as the point at which what you call humans with intellective souls emerge. You base this conclusion almost entirely on the symmetry and aesthetics of the Acheulean tool. To quote you directly: “They are perfected on all sides, requiring the maker to conceive the geometrical properties on the unseen side that he seeks to perfect on his “working” side. This requires an intellective grasp of geometry and proportion exceeding mere sensible imagination. These half-million-year-old hand axes appear to offer the first unequivocal evidence of genuine intellective activity, indicating the presence of true man with a spiritual intellective soul. Could this then be the population in which Adam appears?” So you speculate, based only on a technology that hardly changed for 700,000 years, that this represented the emergence of modern cognition. No evidence of art, decoration, invention, progress, language or abstraction - merely the beautiful symmetry of a tool. On that basis, a wasp’s nest is evidence of the intellective soul of wasps, and a more powerful example, because not only is it as symmetrical and beautiful as an Acheulean axe, but it is the product of a cooperative society, not just an individual.

Second, with regard to the possibility that humans descend from a single couple, whom we call Adam and Eve, whether or not they are indistinguishable from what you call sub-human primates, you speculate that once God had ensouled Adam and Eve, their descendants did not interbreed with “non-human primates” - which is the equivalent of a bottleneck of two in the lineage leading to the extant human population. That notion is completely excluded by studies of the human genome. Variation within the extant human population is not consistent with the idea that the lineage leading to modern humans passed through a severe bottleneck in the time since the divergence of the human and chimpanzee lineages. There was no literal Adam and Eve - either 6,000 years ago or 500,000 years ago.

Third, you claim that possessing human cognition is a binary quality - an individual either has it or he/she doesn’t. On that basis you claim that becoming human had to occur at a single point and time without intermediate stages. But you have no warrant for these claims. There is no reason at all why human congnition should not arise piecemeal (ie some elements in advance of others - in fact, the evidence is that this just how it happened) and gradually (ie, with non-discontinuous development of human faculties). We know, from observing modern humans that their possession of human abilities lies on a continuum - there is nothing binary about human abilities - we range from idiots to geniuses. This is not to deny the fact that there is a substantial gap between the cognitive abilities of most humans and that of other animals - however, that does not mean that human cognition must have developed instantaneously, or that it arises from anything other than natural causes.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Dear Buffalo,

You write: "Then this has to be reconciled -

Adam and Eve first parents, no polygenism, Eve from Adam, bodily immortality, etc…

I do not know what version of evolution allows for this."

That is precisely what I attempt to do in Origin of the Human Species. I was equally puzzled as to how to reconcile evolution with Genesis, and that is why I spent some ten years off and on working on this book. In the latter part of the book, I took the essential findings of the Biblical Commission as a template against which to speculate on how evolutionary science might be weighed. My conclusion is that it is possible to reconcile good science with a legitimate reading of Scripture. Still, should God have determined to do what is recorded in Genesis in a more literal fashion, nothing forbids that God can work miracles such as the direct, immediate creation of Adam, including his body, or the direct taking of Eve from Adam’s side. My task, as a philosopher, was not to determine which version is true, but to test whether the data science presents can be rationally reconciled with what the Church teaches that we must believe about Genesis.
 
And yet Our Church allows us to believe in evolution . . .

:whistle:
I don’t believe the Church is referring to Adam & Eve regarding evolution. They accept certain plant and some animal evolution…not "human"evolution.😃
View attachment 5453

. . . WE CAN HAVE IT EITHER WAY.

I think we should respect either view. Either view is acceptable. And these visions aren’t contradictory, even though I’ve never heard of them, because the Church says we can believe in evolution. The CCC states that Genesis in its creation account uses figurative language. 👍
 
Dear Alec,

My book, Origin of the Human Species, offers a more complete explanation of the points you raise than space permitted in the article. But to take each of your objections in turn:

You write: “First of all, you propose the emergence of the Acheulean culture as the point at which what you call humans with intellective souls emerge. You base this conclusion almost entirely on the symmetry and aesthetics of the Acheulean tool. To quote you directly: “They are perfected on all sides, requiring the maker to conceive the geometrical properties on the unseen side that he seeks to perfect on his “working” side. This requires an intellective grasp of geometry and proportion exceeding mere sensible imagination. These half-million-year-old hand axes appear to offer the first unequivocal evidence of genuine intellective activity, indicating the presence of true man with a spiritual intellective soul. Could this then be the population in which Adam appears?” So you speculate, based only on a technology that hardly changed for 700,000 years, that this represented the emergence of modern cognition. No evidence of art, decoration, invention, progress, language or abstraction - merely the beautiful symmetry of a tool. On that basis, a wasp’s nest is evidence of the intellective soul of wasps, and a more powerful example, because not only is it as symmetrical and beautiful as an Acheulean axe, but it is the product of a cooperative society, not just an individual.”

First, my dating in the book focuses on about 500,000 years ago for the aesthetical hand axes. There is evidence, given by Thomas Wynn, that the symmetrical hand axes which existed since some 1.4 million years ago exhibited a sudden shift in form as I describe in the article. I do not claim that this need be when man first appeared, but that such artistic work necessitated intellective presence at least by that point. Other evidence might have existed but left no trace visible to us today. Wasps do create tools exhibiting intellect, but it is not their own. Rather, it bespeaks the intelligence of God, possibly working through evolution itself. In my book, I concede that earlier evidence of human intellective activity might someday be found, precisely in some of the forms you enumerate.

Secondly, you write: … with regard to the possibility that humans descend from a single couple, whom we call Adam and Eve, whether or not they are indistinguishable from what you call sub-human primates, you speculate that once God had ensouled Adam and Eve, their descendants did not interbreed with “non-human primates” - which is the equivalent of a bottleneck of two in the lineage leading to the extant human population. That notion is completely excluded by studies of the human genome. Variation within the extant human population is not consistent with the idea that the lineage leading to modern humans passed through a severe bottleneck in the time since the divergence of the human and chimpanzee lineages. There was no literal Adam and Eve - either 6,000 years ago or 500,000 years ago."

The human genome cannot test the presence or absence of the intellective soul in primates. My article concedes that theological monogenism is scientifically improbable, but I offer a possible explanation in the article of how true humans might have gradually replaced non-humans over time. Other scenarios are possible, and God can overcome improbabilities. The one thing I have learned most since publishing this book is that it is the speculations of natural science which evolve and adapt more rapidly than anything else. Theology and philosophy remain stable in truth, but natural science constantly revises its theories and claims, especially in such distant realms as paleoanthropology and paleobiology.

Third, you write: “[Y]ou claim that possessing human cognition is a binary quality - an individual either has it or he/she doesn’t. On that basis you claim that becoming human had to occur at a single point and time without intermediate stages. But you have no warrant for these claims. There is no reason at all why human congnition should not arise piecemeal (ie some elements in advance of others - in fact, the evidence is that this just how it happened) and gradually (ie, with non-discontinuous development of human faculties). We know, from observing modern humans that their possession of human abilities lies on a continuum - there is nothing binary about human abilities - we range from idiots to geniuses. This is not to deny the fact that there is a substantial gap between the cognitive abilities of most humans and that of other animals - however, that does not mean that human cognition must have developed instantaneously, or that it arises from anything other than natural causes.”

Here you overstep the limitations of natural science. You say I have no warrant for these claims. The warrant lies in the philosophical science of psychology, which demonstrates – as is done in my book – that human intellective abilities depend on the presence of the spiritual soul which alone exhibits true intellective activities. Chapter Five of Origin of the Human Species addresses these issues, and demonstrates that the gap between man and beast is qualitative, not merely quantitative. Man alone possesses true understanding of natures, judges, and reasons. Natural scientists are simply not equipped, as such, to recognize the essential qualities of intellective activity, since they confuse the order of sensation with the order of intellection because of their inherently materialistic biases. Cognition may arise piecemeal, and vary over a continuum both in man and beast – but purely intellective acts are the sure sign of human presence, and purely intellective acts are produces solely by true man. This takes much space in the book to be developed in proper philosophical manner.

Dr. Bonnette
 
I haven’t read the book, but assuming that it is based on the same sort of thinking that is to be found in your essay “MUST HUMAN EVOLUTION CONTRADICT GENESIS?”, then, although I applaud your attempt to reconcile Holy Scripture with what we know scientifically, I have to say that much of your speculation is commonplace. Moreover it is inconsistent with what we know from the study of the human genome

There are many points that we can agree on. However, there are several places where I think you fall short of making your case. Let’s look at three different sorts of error in your thinking.

First of all, you propose the emergence of the Acheulean culture as the point at which what you call humans with intellective souls emerge. You base this conclusion almost entirely on the symmetry and aesthetics of the Acheulean tool. To quote you directly: “They are perfected on all sides, requiring the maker to conceive the geometrical properties on the unseen side that he seeks to perfect on his “working” side. This requires an intellective grasp of geometry and proportion exceeding mere sensible imagination. These half-million-year-old hand axes appear to offer the first unequivocal evidence of genuine intellective activity, indicating the presence of true man with a spiritual intellective soul. Could this then be the population in which Adam appears?” So you speculate, based only on a technology that hardly changed for 700,000 years, that this represented the emergence of modern cognition. No evidence of art, decoration, invention, progress, language or abstraction - merely the beautiful symmetry of a tool. On that basis, a wasp’s nest is evidence of the intellective soul of wasps, and a more powerful example, because not only is it as symmetrical and beautiful as an Acheulean axe, but it is the product of a cooperative society, not just an individual.

Second, with regard to the possibility that humans descend from a single couple, whom we call Adam and Eve, whether or not they are indistinguishable from what you call sub-human primates, you speculate that once God had ensouled Adam and Eve, their descendants did not interbreed with “non-human primates” - which is the equivalent of a bottleneck of two in the lineage leading to the extant human population. That notion is completely excluded by studies of the human genome. Variation within the extant human population is not consistent with the idea that the lineage leading to modern humans passed through a severe bottleneck in the time since the divergence of the human and chimpanzee lineages. There was no literal Adam and Eve - either 6,000 years ago or 500,000 years ago.

Third, you claim that possessing human cognition is a binary quality - an individual either has it or he/she doesn’t. On that basis you claim that becoming human had to occur at a single point and time without intermediate stages. But you have no warrant for these claims. There is no reason at all why human congnition should not arise piecemeal (ie some elements in advance of others - in fact, the evidence is that this just how it happened) and gradually (ie, with non-discontinuous development of human faculties). We know, from observing modern humans that their possession of human abilities lies on a continuum - there is nothing binary about human abilities - we range from idiots to geniuses. This is not to deny the fact that there is a substantial gap between the cognitive abilities of most humans and that of other animals - however, that does not mean that human cognition must have developed instantaneously, or that it arises from anything other than natural causes.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
Catholics must adhere to the magesterium and not of man and science
 
Dear Namesake,

Since you ask, I earned a Ph.D. in philosophy from the University of Notre Dame in 1970, and taught philosophy for forty years before retiring in 2003.
 
Catholics must adhere to the magesterium and not of man and science
A “Magisterium” that stubbornly insisted on arguing an idiotic position would nullify itself. Science has over the last 500 years radically changed our perspective on the world, and a theology that refuses to respond to these changes quickly becomes an irrelevant anachronism. Young Earth creationism is a prime cause of atheism.

StAnastasia
 
ECF were divergent as to creation- not everyone of them agreed it was 6 days . Not all agreed on the 6000yr chronology.
 
A “Magisterium” that stubbornly insisted on arguing an idiotic position would nullify itself. Science has over the last 500 years radically changed our perspective on the world, and a theology that refuses to respond to these changes quickly becomes an irrelevant anachronism. Young Earth creationism is a prime cause of atheism.

StAnastasia
I object to that claim
 
A “Magisterium” that stubbornly insisted on arguing an idiotic position would nullify itself. Science has over the last 500 years radically changed our perspective on the world, and a theology that refuses to respond to these changes quickly becomes an irrelevant anachronism. Young Earth creationism is a prime cause of atheism.

StAnastasia
Please site your sources of Young earth creationism is a prime cause for atheism.
 
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