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TK421
Guest
They don’t necessarily receive any baptism at all. God does not require baptism in order to move a soul into a state of sanctifying grace. Baptism is necessary on the human end, not on the divine end.
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If atheists can be saved (without accepting Jesus), what kind of baptism (baptism of desire?) do they get?
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Vico
Guest
That is Catechism 1257 … God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.They don’t necessarily receive any baptism at all. God does not require baptism in order to move a soul into a state of sanctifying grace. Baptism is necessary on the human end, not on the divine end.
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rcwitness
Guest
Ok, then they would not be dying as an atheist, right?There would have to be repentance at least by the instant of death.
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Vico
Guest
If there is the reception of sanctifying grace in the dying of an athiest then that moment is the instant of conversion.Ok, then they would not be dying as an atheist, right?
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rcwitness
Guest
This is my understanding also. I have tried to express this, because there seems to be a significant portion of Catholics who are under the impression that the Church has Taught that even atheists can attain heaven. But I believe that the Church is simply inviting atheists to convert to the grace of the creator.If there is the reception of sanctifying grace in the dying of an athiest then that moment is the instant of conversion.
The essence of belief in God seems to be thanksgiving. To be thankful to have been given life, when it was not deserved or initiated on our part. We are here because of His goodness. And we are invited to eternal life because of His immeasurable goodness!
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TK421
Guest
Belief encompasses more than an intellectual affirmation of something ,but also a spiritual affirmation. Human belief doesn’t necessarily fall into polemics because there are devout Catholics, including canonized saints, that might fall into what one might call ‘atheistic thought’ at times without being an affirmed atheist, and an atheist might fall into a mode of thought that is very much Christian and even Catholic, while fundamentally remaining an atheist.
Insofar as baptism itself is concerned, it is not absolutely necessarily that a person be catechized & fully convinced in Church teaching in order to receive a valid baptism. Among the different priests who accompanied St Mother Teresa of Calcutta, including in the former Soviet Republic and in the region of Armenia, the question was sometimes asked in the Houses of the Dying, “Do you want to go to the God who sent these Sisters to you?” as a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to receiving the sacrament of baptism
So grace is very simple insofar as that God has provided from Pentecost until the end of time visible sacraments for us to reliably & confidently go to for healing, but also very mysterious insofar as how God may reach out to the whole of mankind, especially those impoverished souls who are separated from the visible sacraments or from religious thought entirely. That is why we pray the “Oh my Jesus” for all mankind when we pray the Rosary.
Insofar as baptism itself is concerned, it is not absolutely necessarily that a person be catechized & fully convinced in Church teaching in order to receive a valid baptism. Among the different priests who accompanied St Mother Teresa of Calcutta, including in the former Soviet Republic and in the region of Armenia, the question was sometimes asked in the Houses of the Dying, “Do you want to go to the God who sent these Sisters to you?” as a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to receiving the sacrament of baptism
So grace is very simple insofar as that God has provided from Pentecost until the end of time visible sacraments for us to reliably & confidently go to for healing, but also very mysterious insofar as how God may reach out to the whole of mankind, especially those impoverished souls who are separated from the visible sacraments or from religious thought entirely. That is why we pray the “Oh my Jesus” for all mankind when we pray the Rosary.
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Vico
Guest
That seems aligned with the Catechism that “The faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith”.Belief encompasses more than an intellectual affirmation of something ,but also a spiritual affirmation. Human belief doesn’t necessarily fall into polemics because there are devout Catholics, including canonized saints, that might fall into what one might call ‘atheistic thought’ at times without being an affirmed atheist, and an atheist might fall into a mode of thought that is very much Christian and even Catholic, while fundamentally remaining an atheist.
Insofar as baptism itself is concerned, it is not absolutely necessarily that a person be catechized & fully convinced in Church teaching in order to receive a valid baptism. Among the different priests who accompanied St Mother Teresa of Calcutta, including in the former Soviet Republic and in the region of Armenia, the question was sometimes asked in the Houses of the Dying, “Do you want to go to the God who sent these Sisters to you?” as a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to receiving the sacrament of baptism
So grace is very simple insofar as that God has provided from Pentecost until the end of time visible sacraments for us to reliably & confidently go to for healing, but also very mysterious insofar as how God may reach out to the whole of mankind, especially those impoverished souls who are separated from the visible sacraments or from religious thought entirely. That is why we pray the “Oh my Jesus” for all mankind when we pray the Rosary.
1253 Baptism is the sacrament of faith.54 But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. The faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop. The catechumen or the godparent is asked: “What do you ask of God’s Church?” The response is: “Faith!”
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thistle
Guest
That’s why I said if they die as an atheist they will not be saved.There would have to be repentance at least by the instant of death.
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TK421
Guest
It is doctrinal to say that a person can die with a variety of grave sins and be saved. It may happen frequently or infrequently, but it is doctrinal to say that it can happen.That’s why I said if they die as an atheist they will not be saved.
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Vico
Guest
It is hair splitting. They are atheist up to the moment of reception of sanctifying grace and which is when they become Christian.That’s why I said if they die as an atheist they will not be saved.
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edwayne
Guest
Unless I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say, this is untrue. If a person dies in their sins, they cannot be saved, for nothing unclean will enter into heaven.It is doctrinal to say that a person can die with a variety of grave sins and be saved. It may happen frequently or infrequently, but it is doctrinal to say that it can happen.
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thistle
Guest
Its not hair splitting. You are saved or not based on the state of your soul at death. An atheist either dies an atheist (will not be saved) or does not die an atheist as they have accepted Christ before their dying breath.It is hair splitting. They are atheist up to the moment of reception of sanctifying grace and which is when they become Christian.
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thistle
Guest
You are wrong. Dying in a state of mortal sin means going immediately Hell.This is an infallible teaching of the Church.It is doctrinal to say that a person can die with a variety of grave sins and be saved. It may happen frequently or infrequently, but it is doctrinal to say that it can happen.
Nobody who has mortal sins on their soul at death is saved.
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rcwitness
Guest
Yes… or in the rare case they are unaware of the Gospel and His Church, at least would give thanks and express remorse from wrong doings committed to his/her creator.Its not hair splitting. You are saved or not based on the state of your soul at death. An atheist either dies an atheist (will not be saved) or does not die an atheist as they have accepted Christ before their dying breath.
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Vico
Guest
OK, then they are saved as an atheist since that is what they were when the decision was made!Its not hair splitting. You are saved or not based on the state of your soul at death. An atheist either dies an atheist (will not be saved) or does not die an atheist as they have accepted Christ before their dying breath.
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thistle
Guest
NO. If they are saved it means they have repented and accepted Christ before death and therefore are no longer atheists.OK, then they are saved as an atheist since that is what they were when the decision was made!
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GLam8833
Guest
I am a friend of this Salvationist lady who is
a grand Christian but never saw the need to
get baptized. After she died, I went thru the
process to get baptized again in a baptist
Church ON HER BEHALF. See Heb. 15:29
a grand Christian but never saw the need to
get baptized. After she died, I went thru the
process to get baptized again in a baptist
Church ON HER BEHALF. See Heb. 15:29
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rcwitness
Guest
There is no Hebrews 15… ?I am a friend of this Salvationist lady who is
a grand Christian but never saw the need to
get baptized. After she died, I went thru the
process to get baptized again in a baptist
Church ON HER BEHALF. See Heb. 15:29
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Vico
Guest
OM, that makes sense because you said “if they die as an atheist they will not be saved.” However saved can be mean that the sanctifying grace received perdues until death, so the salvation occurs before death.NO. If they are saved it means they have repented and accepted Christ before death and therefore are no longer atheists.
Another question to answer, the one of the thread is: “If atheists can be saved (without accepting Jesus)”.
Now for that question, salvation is reception of sanctifying grace, which does not require explicit acceptance of Jesus.
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rcwitness
Guest
Do you mean someone who has never heard the Gospel?OM, that makes sense because you said “if they die as an atheist they will not be saved.” However saved can be mean that the sanctifying grace received perdues until death.
Another question to answer, the one of the thread is: “If atheists can be saved (without accepting Jesus)”.
Now for that question, salvation is reception of sanctifying grace, which does not require explicit acceptance of Jesus.
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