If contraception is intrinsically evil...

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mgoforth said:
I know. I’m just unable to respond to you with charity Debora, so I’m going to have to say nothing at all.
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I don’t think Debora was ever trying to put words in your mouth. The statements about contraception never being okay originally seemed to imply that you and Mark Anthony thought it was wrong for a rape victim to take Plan B. It turned out that you did not think this, but Mark Anthony did. I know that’s how I originally read you until Debora cleared it up. 😉
 
WingsOfEagles said:
Well, yes, once fertilized the egg is a life. The okay use of Plan B in this case though is because rape is a crime. It is not okay to take Plan B in the case of a mutual one night stand, even if ovulation has not yet occurred.
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Wrong. This is an condemend action.
 
LJN21 said:
I am aware of what contraception means. In this cause the going agaisnt conception is self defence not contracpetion.

Any contracpetive that prevents a ferlized egg form emplanting is causing an abortion.
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Self defense by means of contraception.
 
LJN21 said:
Wrong. This is an condemend action.
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I think you misread what I wrote. Once egg is fertilized, it is not okay to take Plan B because the fertilized egg is a life (as I stated). However, prior to this Plan B is only authorized in cases of rape (not one night stands, etc.).
 
mommamaree said:
No. No. No.
The morning-after pill is contraception. A rape victim is allowed to prevent conception (i.e. contracept).
Condoms and diaphragms are both contraceptive devices. Sex slaves are not required to allow for conception, as they are being raped.
Pulling out, aka withdrawal, is a contraceptive sexual technique. A rape victim is allowed to beg her rapist to withdraw at any time.
Victims are not required, either through natural law, moral/ethical law, divine revelation, or magisterial teaching to passively allow conception to occur simply because her sexual intimacy is being violated. At any time, she is allowed to repel her unjust aggressor, even if that is after the fact.
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Mamamaree to the rescue!!

Lol.

We may not agree about whether or not fornication is called to be procreative, but I’m glad you’re setting some of these things straight. 🙂
 
WingsOfEagles said:
Self defense by means of contraception.
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Self defense by killing off the attackers (sperm) or prevent them from doing harm (delaying ovulation), the moral action is still self defense. The method is medication or washing them out or killing them, the end is to be free of the attack.

The Church has always held therapeutic ends with drugs that can cause infertility to be moral.
 
Debora123 said:
Mamamaree to the rescue!!

Lol.

We may not agree about whether or not fornication is called to be procreative, but I’m glad you’re setting some of these things straight. 🙂
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Yes, I think what has some people hung up on self-defense vs. calling Plan B contraception is that they are of the mindset “The Church says contraception is wrong. Therefore, we can’t call it contraception.” The reason the Church says contraception is wrong is because married couples are called to be open to life. A rape victim is under no such obligation. The only thing wrong would be destroying an already fertilized egg because it is murdering a human life.
 
mgoforth said:
I know. I’m just unable to respond to you with charity Debora, so I’m going to have to say nothing at all.
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Wow, that was rude.

I wasn’t being hostile or uncharitable to you in any way, there’s no reason why you should have a problem responding to me in charity. 🤷
 
LJN21 said:
Self defense by killing off the attackers (sperm) or prevent them from doing harm (delaying ovulation), the moral action is still self defense. The method is medication or washing them out or killing them, the end is to be free of the attack.

The Church has always held therapeutic ends with drugs that can cause infertility to be moral.
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Plan B does not kill sperm. Yes, it delays ovulation, which is a form of contraception. It is FINE because it is self-defense.
 
WingsOfEagles said:
Yes, I think what has some people hung up on self-defense vs. calling Plan B contraception is that they are of the mindset “The Church says contraception is wrong. Therefore, we can’t call it contraception.” The reason the Church says contraception is wrong is because married couples are called to be open to life. A rape victim is under no such obligation. The only thing wrong would be destroying an already fertilized egg because it is murdering a human life.
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Absolutely 100% true.
 
WingsOfEagles said:
Yes, I think what has some people hung up on self-defense vs. calling Plan B contraception is that they are of the mindset “The Church says contraception is wrong. Therefore, we can’t call it contraception.” The reason the Church says contraception is wrong is because married couples are called to be open to life. A rape victim is under no such obligation. The only thing wrong would be destroying an already fertilized egg because it is murdering a human life.
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The part you guys are completely missing is WHY the rape victim isn’t under the obligation and some people have jump through some pretty big hoops getting to the point where any sex out side of marriage isn’t sex and not required to follow the nature of the sex act anymore.

The why of it is the attacker has to right to her body in any way, so she has no moral obligation to let him get her pregnant. It isn’t because it a crime or because its not a sex act. Its because he is taking something that is not his and has no right to.

It really doesn’t have anything to do with contraception and everything to do with defense.
 
WingsOfEagles said:
Plan B does not kill sperm. Yes, it delays ovulation, which is a form of contraception. It is FINE because it is self-defense.
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Now we are getting some where at least.

Yes it a form of contraception, so is ‘the pill’ which is morally licit for therapeutic reason and NOT considered a contraceptive act in that case even if it does make the martial act sterile.
 
LJN21 said:
The part you guys are completely missing is WHY the rape victim isn’t under the obligation and some people have jump through some pretty big hoops getting to the point where any sex out side of marriage isn’t sex and not required to follow the nature of the sex act anymore.

The why of it is the attacker has to right to her body in any way, so she has no moral obligation to let him get her pregnant. It isn’t because it a crime or because its not a sex act. Its because he is taking something that is not his and has no right to.

It really doesn’t have anything to do with contraception and everything to do with defense.
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It’s still contraception though.

***Part ***of the reason why contraception here is permissible is because it is done in self defense of a rape.

But it’s still contraception. I’m not sure what the point is of trying to say it’s not contraception.
 
LJN21 said:
The part you guys are completely missing is WHY the rape victim isn’t under the obligation and some people have jump through some pretty big hoops getting to the point where any sex out side of marriage isn’t sex and not required to follow the nature of the sex act anymore.

The why of it is the attacker has to right to her body in any way, so she has no moral obligation to let him get her pregnant. It isn’t because it a crime or because its not a sex act. Its because he is taking something that is not his and has no right to.

It really doesn’t have anything to do with contraception and everything to do with defense.
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I said nothing about rape not being a sex act. It is a sex act.

I don’t understand why you say, It is not because it is a crime. It is because he is taking something that is not his." You contradict yourself. Taking something that is not yours is a crime.
 
LJN21 said:
Now we are getting some where at least.

Yes it a form of contraception, so is ‘the pill’ which is morally licit for therapeutic reason and NOT considered a contraceptive act in that case even if it does make the martial act sterile.
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I think the only argument has been how to term things. I believe Plan B is contraception, but authorized contraception in this case because of self-defense.
 
WingsOfEagles said:
I don’t think Debora was ever trying to put words in your mouth.
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You’re right, I did not put any words in this person’s mouth, and am kind of upset that I was accused of such.

I asked this person 3 questions so I could understand where she/he is coming from. Asking someone a question is the absolute opposite of putting words in their mouth, lol!
 
WingsOfEagles said:
I said nothing about rape not being a sex act. It is a sex act.

I don’t understand why you say, It is not because it is a crime. It is because he is taking something that is not his." You contradict yourself. Taking something that is not yours is a crime.
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I know you didn’t others have though.

My point is the fact (in most country’s at least) it is crime is not what makes the victims actions moral.
 
WingsOfEagles said:
I think the only argument has been how to term things. I believe Plan B is contraception, but authorized contraception in this case because of self-defense.
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So, the Church has authorized an intrinsically evil act?

Or maybe it falls in the same double effect category as using other contraceptives for actions that are not morally contraception.
 
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