If contraception is intrinsically evil...

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The why of it is the attacker has to right to her body in any way, so she has no moral obligation to let him get her pregnant. It isn’t because it a crime or because its not a sex act. Its because he is taking something that is not his and has no right to.
Yes and no. See this quote from Ethical Treatment after Rape article.

"*The woman who is a victim of rape has the moral right to prevent the pregnancy for the following reasons: First, the rapist (including his sperm) is an unjust aggressor who has violated the woman’s dignity. Second, rape is an act of force and violence, unlike the conjugal love in marriage whereby both spouses give freely of themselves in an act of unitive and procreative love. Third, the woman is not responsible for the action, and thereby has the right to prevent the pregnancy. (Please note that for these three reasons, this guidance does not violate the Church’ s teaching regarding contraception as expressed in Humanae Vitae, which, because of the free-giving between spouses, stated, “Each and every marriage act must remain open to the transmission of life (no. 11).) *”
 
Yes and no. See this quote from Ethical Treatment after Rape article.

"*The woman who is a victim of rape has the moral right to prevent the pregnancy for the following reasons: First, the rapist (including his sperm) is an unjust aggressor who has violated the woman’s dignity. Second, rape is an act of force and violence, unlike the conjugal love in marriage whereby both spouses give freely of themselves in an act of unitive and procreative love. Third, the woman is not responsible for the action, and thereby has the right to prevent the pregnancy. (Please note that for these three reasons, this guidance does not violate the Church’ s teaching regarding contraception as expressed in Humanae Vitae, which, because of the free-giving between spouses, stated, “Each and every marriage act must remain open to the transmission of life (no. 11).) *”
I’ve read that, a couple times. I don’t see how may statement is negated by it.
First, the rapist (including his sperm) is an unjust aggressor who has violated the woman’s dignity.
He is an unjust aggressor. Check.
Second, rape is an act of force and violence, unlike the conjugal love in marriage whereby both spouses give freely of themselves in an act of unitive and procreative love.
He has no moral right to her body. Check.
Third, the woman is not responsible for the action, and thereby has the right to prevent the pregnancy.
She has no moral requirement to let him impregnate her. Check.
Please note that for these three reasons, this guidance does not violate the Church’ s teaching regarding contraception as expressed in Humanae Vitae, which, because of the free-giving between spouses, stated, "Each and every marriage act must remain open to the transmission of life
It is morally Not contraception. Check.
 
Please note that for these three reasons, this guidance does not violate the Church’ s teaching regarding contraception as expressed in Humanae Vitae, which, because of the free-giving between spouses, stated, "Each and every marriage act must remain open to the transmission of life
“Check?” :confused:

Where in that quote does it say that contracepting a rape is not contraception?
 
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LJN21:
Ok, let me post is again, and I’ll bold the same part you bolded:
Please note that for these three reasons, this guidance does not violate the Church’ s teaching regarding contraception as expressed in Humanae Vitae, which, because of the free-giving between spouses, stated, "Each and every marriage act must remain open to the transmission of life
The part you bolded says this:

“…three reason, this guidance does not violate the Church’ s teaching regarding contraception as expressed in Humanae Vitae…”

It doesn’t say “it’s not contraception.”

So I’m still at a loss here. :confused:
 
Wow, that was rude.

I wasn’t being hostile or uncharitable to you in any way, there’s no reason why you should have a problem responding to me in charity. 🤷
I’m not sure why I do exactly, but I think you remind me strongly of someone that I’ve never been able to get along with. I feel like many of your statements have been far more rude than me saying that I can’t think of something nice to say…but I’d really rather not get into it. I’ve tried to be charitable, but I think it’s better for me to just keep quiet in your case. I hope you can understand and that you’ll forgive me.
 
I’m not sure why I do exactly, but I think you remind me strongly of someone that I’ve never been able to get along with. I feel like many of your statements have been far more rude than me saying that I can’t think of something nice to say…but I’d really rather not get into it. I’ve tried to be charitable, but I think it’s better for me to just keep quiet in your case. I hope you can understand and that you’ll forgive me.
In reading many of Debora’s posts, I have come to realize that she is very succinct. She comes straight to the point and doesn’t feel the need to repeat herself in the same post. An unusual trait for a woman, but a good one. I wasn’t reading anything uncharitable about her remarks toward you. 🙂
 
The Church teaches that contraception is intrinsically evil.

Humanae Vitae: vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html
Unlawful Birth Control Methods
  1. Therefore We base Our words on the first principles of a human and Christian doctrine of marriage when We are obliged once more to declare that the direct interruption of the generative process already begun and, above all, all direct abortion, even for therapeutic reasons, are to be absolutely excluded as lawful means of regulating the number of children. (14) Equally to be condemned, as the magisterium of the Church has affirmed on many occasions, is direct sterilization, whether of the man or of the woman, whether permanent or temporary. (15)
Similarly excluded is any action which either before, at the moment of, or after sexual intercourse, is specifically intended to prevent procreation—whether as an end or as a means. (16)
Neither is it valid to argue, as a justification for sexual intercourse which is deliberately contraceptive, that a lesser evil is to be preferred to a greater one, or that such intercourse would merge with procreative acts of past and future to form a single entity, and so be qualified by exactly the same moral goodness as these. Though it is true that sometimes it is lawful to tolerate a lesser moral evil in order to avoid a greater evil or in order to promote a greater good," it is never lawful, even for the gravest reasons, to do evil that good may come of it (18)—in other words, to intend directly something which of its very nature contradicts the moral order, and which must therefore be judged unworthy of man, even though the intention is to protect or promote the welfare of an individual, of a family or of society in general. Consequently, it is a serious error to think that a whole married life of otherwise normal relations can justify sexual intercourse which is deliberately contraceptive and so intrinsically wrong.
So, this is almost all just talking about sexual intercourse. He didn’t say Conjugal Union here… just sexual intercourse.

Next part
Lawful Therapeutic Means
  1. On the other hand, the Church does not consider at all illicit the use of those therapeutic means necessary to cure bodily diseases, even if a foreseeable impediment to procreation should result there from—provided such impediment is not directly intended for any motive whatsoever. (19)
That would be using contraceptives in a manor that is not moral contraception.

So either the Church is allowing an intrinsic evil - which she never does.

Or double effect is in play and the contraception is not the moral end.
 
In reading many of Debora’s posts, I have come to realize that she is very succinct. She comes straight to the point and doesn’t feel the need to repeat herself in the same post. An unusual trait for a woman, but a good one. I wasn’t reading anything uncharitable about her remarks toward you. 🙂
I fully forgive any negativity that may have been there on her part, and I hope she will forgive me for seeing negativity if none actually existed. I’d rather not get into any further.
 
The Church teaches that contraception is intrinsically evil.

Humanae Vitae: vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

So, this is almost all just talking about sexual intercourse. He didn’t say Conjugal Union here… just sexual intercourse.

Next part

That would be using contraceptives in a manor that is not moral contraception.

So either the Church is allowing an intrinsic evil - which she never does.

Or double effect is in play and the contraception is not the moral end.
I think I see your point here. However, rape is not considered by the Church to be a form of sexual intercourse. See the CCC reference. The Church says that rape is a forcible violation of the sexual intimacy of another person. It goes on to say that rape itself is an intrinsically evil act. The Church says that contraception used in sexual intercourse is an evil act. So, contracepted sexual intercourse is an intrinsically evil act. But rape (according to the Church’s definition) is not sexual intercourse. So contraception used in the case of rape is not an intrinsically evil act.
 
The Church teaches that contraception is intrinsically evil.

Humanae Vitae: vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

So, this is almost all just talking about sexual intercourse. He didn’t say Conjugal Union here… just sexual intercourse.

Next part

That would be using contraceptives in a manor that is not moral contraception.

So either the Church is allowing an intrinsic evil - which she never does.

Or double effect is in play and the contraception is not the moral end.
Neither of the above is true.

The Church has always stated that contraception is intrinsically immoral in the marital act. Rape is not the marital act, and so contraception is permissible.

It even says it in the very post you’re referencing:
Please note that for these three reasons, this guidance does not violate the Church’ s teaching regarding contraception as expressed in Humanae Vitae, which, because of the free-giving between spouses, stated, **"Each and every marriage act must remain open to the transmission of life **
There is no double effect.
 
The Church teaches that contraception is intrinsically evil.

Humanae Vitae: vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

So, this is almost all just talking about sexual intercourse. He didn’t say Conjugal Union here… just sexual intercourse.

Next part

That would be using contraceptives in a manor that is not moral contraception.

So either the Church is allowing an intrinsic evil - which she never does.

Or double effect is in play and the contraception is not the moral end.
Mommamaree, this is pretty much what I was thinking, but LJN21 beat me to the punch…so I’ll second this interpretation.
 
In reading many of Debora’s posts, I have come to realize that she is very succinct. She comes straight to the point and doesn’t feel the need to repeat herself in the same post. An unusual trait for a woman, but a good one. I wasn’t reading anything uncharitable about her remarks toward you. 🙂
Thank you. 🙂
 
Mommamaree, this is pretty much what I was thinking, but LJN21 beat me to the punch…so I’ll second this interpretation.
mgoforth,

Did you happen to see post #369? I responded to LJN21 on this.
 
Here is an analogy (which are always inadequate but often helpful).

Situation A: A person serves you a meal. They place it on a plate and you help yourself. (consensual sexual behaviors)

Situation B: A person straps you to a chair, shoves a tube down your throat and force-feeds you foods. (rape)

In situation A, it would be acceptable to moderately enjoy the meal. It would be wrong, however, to binge and purge (contraception).

In situation B, you the victim, have the right to fight at any moment against your attacking chef, even if it is after the fact by making yourself vomit (contraception).

In both situation A and B, the action being discussed is vomiting. The Church may teach that vomiting up your food after a meal is wrong. That does not speak to the situation where someone is trying to make foie gras out of you, where fighting and then vomiting would be a very acceptable and normal response to such violation. The action of purging and vomiting is the same. The context is what differs, and context matters.
 
I think I see your point here. However, rape is not considered by the Church to be a form of sexual intercourse. See the CCC reference. The Church says that rape is a forcible violation of the sexual intimacy of another person. It goes on to say that rape itself is an intrinsically evil act.
It does not say its not a form of sexual intercourse. Being a forcible violation of sexual intimacy is not in conflict with it still being a form on intercourse. A bad and evil one no doubt, but a form none the less. The Summa is pretty clear.

Note definition of term “venereal”: Of or relating to sexual desire or sexual intercourse.
Objection 1. It would seem that six species are unfittingly assigned to lust, namely, “simple fornication, adultery, incest, seduction, rape, and the unnatural vice.” For diversity of matter does not diversify the species. Now the aforesaid division is made with regard to diversity of matter, according as the woman with whom a man has intercourse is married or a virgin, or of some other condition. Therefore it seems that the species of lust are diversified in this way.
Objection 2. Further, seemingly the species of one vice are not differentiated by things that belong to another vice. Now adultery does not differ from simple fornication, save in the point of a man having intercourse with one who is another’s, so that he commits an injustice. Therefore it seems that adultery should not be reckoned a species of lust.
(There are more, but I am going to cut it off there)
Aquinas replies:
I answer that As stated above (153, 3), the sin of lust consists in seeking venereal pleasure not in accordance with right reason. This may happen in two ways. First, in respect of the matter wherein this pleasure is sought; secondly, when, whereas there is due matter, other due circumstances are not observed. And since a circumstance, as such, does not specify a moral act, whose species is derived from its object which is also its matter, it follows that the species of lust must be assigned with respect to its matter or object.
Now this same matter may be discordant with right reason in two ways. First, because it is inconsistent with the end of the venereal act. On this way, as hindering the begetting of children, there is the “vice against nature,” which attaches to every venereal act from which generation cannot follow; and, as hindering the due upbringing and advancement of the child when born, there is “simple fornication,” which is the union of an unmarried man with an unmarried woman. Secondly, the matter wherein the venereal act is consummated may be discordant with right reason in relation to other persons; and this in two ways. First, with regard to the woman, with whom a man has connection, by reason of due honor not being paid to her; and thus there is “incest,” which consists in the misuse of a woman who is related by consanguinity or affinity. Secondly, with regard to the person under whose authority the woman is placed: and if she be under the authority of a husband, it is “adultery,” if under the authority of her father, it is “seduction,” in the absence of violence, and “rape” if violence be employed.
These species are differentiated on the part of the woman rather than of the man, because in the venereal act the woman is passive and is by way of matter, whereas the man is by way of agent; and it has been stated above (Objection 1) that the aforesaid species are assigned with regard to a difference of matter.
Reply to Objection 1. The aforesaid diversity of matter is connected with a formal difference of object, which difference results from different modes of opposition to right reason, as stated above.
Reply to Objection 2. As stated above (I-II, 18, 07), nothing hinders the deformities of different vices concurring in the one act, and in this way adultery is comprised under lust and injustice. Nor is this deformity of injustice altogether accidental to lust: since the lust that obeys concupiscence so far as to lead to injustice, is thereby shown to be more grievous.
Its a logical fallacy to say that because the later document omits something its no longer considered to be true. Unless you can find a Church document that expressly contradicts what Aquinas has said his theology still holds.
The Church says that contraception used in sexual intercourse is an evil act. So, contracepted sexual intercourse is an intrinsically evil act. But rape (according to the Church’s definition) is not sexual intercourse. So contraception used in the case of rape is not an intrinsically evil act.
Agian… the lack of detail in the CCC does not constituted the Church not believing that rape is not sexual intercourse.
 
Here is an analogy (which are always inadequate but often helpful).

Situation A: A person serves you a meal. They place it on a plate and you help yourself. (consensual sexual behaviors)

Situation B: A person straps you to a chair, shoves a tube down your throat and force-feeds you foods. (rape)

In situation A, it would be acceptable to moderately enjoy the meal. It would be wrong, however, to binge and purge (contraception).

In situation B, you the victim, have the right to fight at any moment against your attacking chef, even if it is after the fact by making yourself vomit (contraception).

In both situation A and B, the action being discussed is vomiting. The Church may teach that vomiting up your food after a meal is wrong. That does not speak to the situation where someone is trying to make foie gras out of you, where fighting and then vomiting would be a very acceptable and normal response to such violation. The action of purging and vomiting is the same. The context is what differs, and context matters.
They are all still a form of eating 😉
 
They are all still a form of eating 😉
😛
Fair enough.

Okay, so I looked up the actual definition of rape on an online dictionary. I had always been educated that rape is not about sex, it is about power. My mother, MIL, sister, SIL, cousin, and some female friends have all been the victims of either rape or sexual assault of some kind. When they are willing to be open about it, they say it is not about sex, but is about violence and power. And that their attacker used his sexual parts as a weapon in a violent assault.
Perhaps this is a way that modern women are struggling to cope with the aftermath of rapes and sexual assaults, by saying it is not a form of sexual intercourse? Despite the definition in the dictionary being that it is a “forcible form of sexual intercourse”? That at least makes some sense to me. Maybe it is their way of separating their rape from their experience of consensual sexual acts?

Still, I think that the Church does not contradict herself at all when allowing for the use of contraceptives as part of treatment after rape. Rape is an injustice. The Church is allowing for the restoration of justice by allowing contraception, even when it is otherwise prohibited.

Similarly, (another analogy, sorry) we do not have the right to abduct someone. However, police do have the right and the responsibility to arrest someone suspected of a crime. The action might be the same (still taking a person into your custody against their will) but the context and the players are different. So there is no contradiction.

That is why I think the Church allows contraceptives to be used to prevent conception following a rape.
 
Here is an analogy (which are always inadequate but often helpful).

Situation A: A person serves you a meal. They place it on a plate and you help yourself. (consensual sexual behaviors)

Situation B: A person straps you to a chair, shoves a tube down your throat and force-feeds you foods. (rape)

In situation A, it would be acceptable to moderately enjoy the meal. It would be wrong, however, to binge and purge (contraception).

In situation B, you the victim, have the right to fight at any moment against your attacking chef, even if it is after the fact by making yourself vomit (contraception).

In both situation A and B, the action being discussed is vomiting. The Church may teach that vomiting up your food after a meal is wrong. That does not speak to the situation where someone is trying to make foie gras out of you, where fighting and then vomiting would be a very acceptable and normal response to such violation. The action of purging and vomiting is the same. The context is what differs, and context matters.
Another example. You kill someone rather than be killed. You killed in self defense. Does this mean that you did not kill anyone?
 
Another example. You kill someone rather than be killed. You killed in self defense. Does this mean that you did not kill anyone?
Is this question addressed to me?

Just as in my scenarios, both actions are contraceptive, so it would be true that murder and killing in self-defense would be killing. What differs is the context and the players involved.

In murder, you are morally culpable. If you accidentally kill an attacker while defending yourself, you are not morally culpable. But in both situations, it is unfortunately true that you killed someone.

In contracepted sexual relations, you are morally culpable. In the use of contraceptives after rape, you are not morally culpable. But in both situations, it is unfortunately true that you used contraceptives.
 
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