If contraception is intrinsically evil...

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The only people who have done that are the handful of members on this thread. All the theologians who touched on this issue, including our Bishops, made no such argument.

But then again, I said I wasn’t going to get into that again. Quite frankly, it’s not worth getting into it. I just think it’s an absurd notion.
Look, not everyone is going to agree with the Bishops. It’s like that with everything coming from the Church. Someone out there is going to disagree with something that the Church teaches. I have yet to meet someone who is 100% on board. Like you, I completely agree with the Bishops regarding it being allowed to take contraception after a rape (provided there is a reasonable doubt that ovulation hasn’t already occured, which is also what the Bishops say). It makes no sense whatsoever to say that this exception changes what the Church teaches about artificial birth control. The teaching is still the same: married people must not interfere with the unitive and procreative properties when they engage in the marital embrace. There is no unitive property to protect in a rape situation. If the Church had a problem with what the US Bishops collectively teach, they are not shy about saying so. They didn’t contradict the Bishops, and didn’t condemn the statement. I’m sure it would be their pleasure the jump on it with everthing they had if they found the Bishops to be in error. They did not.

And as to Aquinas…he and his teachings are not infallible.
 
Okay, but you realize that your position is against Church teaching in this case?
I am more than well aware that you hold the position that I am going against Church teaching in agreeing with USCCB that it is permissible for rape victims to contracept.

I disagree with you.
 
I always thought that the use of any contraception whatsoever would always be evil whenever it is used for preventing a pregnancy and therefore the use of it to prevent a pregnancy from a rape would also be evil. But then again, I trust in the Bishop’s wisdom since they are far more wise than I and I may very well be wrong on this.
It makes complete sense to me given the teachings of the Church on the marital embrace: 1) unitive property required 2) procreative property required. These requirements are the foundation for what the Church teaches reqarding everyone, married, single, divorced, gay, etc. If one of these properites is missing, it’s not licit. Unmarried people, divorced people, gay people, etc. aren’t supposed to be having sex in the first place. However, there is no unitive property to protect in a rape situation.
 
Look at direct sterilization and indirect sterilization. Both procedures may be performed in the exact same way. The outcome is the same. One is licit and one is illicit.

Direct sterilization is intrinsically evil, no exceptions. Indirect sterilization may be licit. We use different terms to express different moral dimensions even though the both render one sterile in the same way.
No.

What you describe above is referencing double effect.

Rape victims contraception against their rapist does not fall under double effect.

This too has already been discussed in this thread.
 
Reposting this link. Notice how this discussion of instructions for treatment of rape victims in Catholic hospitals explicitly refers to the action of the medication as preventing conception (defending herself against a conception) and later refers to the medication as a contraceptive. The entire article is discussing why, even though contraceptive medicine (medical terminology) is being used in a medically contraceptive fashion, the woman who is taking the medication and her health care providers are not guilty of the sin of contraception. The specific medication mentioned in the long form of the article inhibits ovulation. It is being used to protect her egg from the unjust aggressor, the sperm. Recall that sperm are not passive cells. They are designed to hunt down the egg and fertilize it. The rapist has no right to deposit his sperm in the womb of his rape victim, so spermicide and ovulation-inhibiting medication are acceptable to protect the body of the victim from a continuing assault. They might be using medical contraceptive technology but they are not using it in a contraceptive fashion as described by the Church to be an intrinsic evil.

catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0566.html

"Finally, health care providers must provide treatment to prevent the possible contraction of venereal disease and pregnancy. The Directives state, “A woman who has been raped may defend herself against a conception resulting from sexual assault. If, after appropriate testing, there is no evidence that conception has occurred already, she may be treated with medication that would prevent ovulation, sperm capacitation, or fertilization. It is not permissible, however, to initiate or to recommend treatments that have as their purpose or direct effect the removal, destruction, or interference with the implantation of a fertilized ovum.”(no. 36)



“Therefore, before administering contraceptives to a rape victim, health care providers must ascertain first her medical history (including menstrual history, recent sexual activity, and contraceptive usage). A pregnancy test should be performed. If she is not pregnant but her medical history suggests the possibility that ovulation may have occurred, then health care providers ought to administer a Luteinizing Hormone urine dip test or a progesterone blood level test. These tests would indicate if ovulation has indeed occurred and thereby a child was possibly conceived. If these tests are not available in a timely way or at all, treatment should proceed as long as there is a reasonable doubt that ovulation has occurred.”
Thank you.
 
Look, not everyone is going to agree with the Bishops. It’s like that with everything coming from the Church. Someone out there is going to disagree with something that the Church teaches. I have yet to meet someone who is 100% on board. Like you, I completely agree with the Bishops regarding it being allowed to take contraception after a rape (provided there is a reasonable doubt that ovulation hasn’t already occured, which is also what the Bishops say). It makes no sense whatsoever to say that this exception changes what the Church teaches about artificial birth control. The teaching is still the same: married people must not interfere with the unitive and procreative properties when they engage in the marital embrace. There is no unitive property to protect in a rape situation. If the Church had a problem with what the US Bishops collectively teach, they are not shy about saying so. They didn’t contradict the Bishops, and didn’t condemn the statement. I’m sure it would be their pleasure the jump on it with everthing they had if they found the Bishops to be in error. They did not.

And as to Aquinas…he and his teachings are not infallible.
👍 Thank you!!
 
The only people who have done that are the handful of members on this thread. All the theologians who touched on this issue, including our Bishops, made no such argument.
That is fundamentally wrong. First of we don’t know what EACH bishop has argued said on the subject. Second, ALL the theologians DON’T agree. I’ve seen both arguments made on various sites online.

Natural law says the nature of sex is to be unitve and procreative. All the doctors of the Church touch on this, its in the Summa, it is in the bible.
Natural law says that Contraception is intrinsically evil because it frustrates the procreative and sometimes unitive nature of the sex.
Natural law says rape is intrinsically evil because it frustrates the unitive nature of sex.
Self defense of an unjust aggressor is a moral action.

Most of more modern works or the Church only deal with the morality aspects form the side of marriage because that is the only place sex is supposed to happen. But only discussing one aspect of the morality doesn’t mean the other aspects of the morality stop existing.

Saying ONLY the conjugal union is procreative and unitive because thats all the CCC and HV talk about is a logically deficient because its only taking two documents that were not written to talk about in’s and outs of disordered uses of sex, except in very broad terms. The Summa and St. Augusten DO talk about the other the disordered uses of sex and the moral issues attached to them. Since those works are part of the doctrine of the church (being written by doctors of the Church and all) we have to go back to those works to make an logical statement.
 
Okay, to clarify, you say that a woman may take contraception after rape. Not to be defined or stated as anything else. Contraception.

You are going against Church teaching, not mine. Here’s proof:

On September 17, 1983, Pope John Paul II told a group of priests that **“contraception is to be judged objectively so profoundly unlawful as never to be, for any reason, justified. To think or to say the contrary is equal to maintaining that, in human life, situations may arise in which it is lawful not to recognize God as God.” **

So either what a woman does to prevent conception after rape isn’t contraception or you are against the teaching of the Church.

tldm.org/news6/contraception.htm
 
And as to Aquinas…he and his teachings are not infallible.
No one said they were infallible.
However you can’t dismiss him out of hand for that reason. He is a Doctor of the Church and his Summa is the Theological foundation for a large part of our faith. The parts of his teaching that constitute the constant and traditional teaching of the church are in fact infallible by their nature. Their nature, being they are part of the constant and traditional teaching of the church.
 
Okay, to clarify, you say that a woman may take contraception after rape. Not to be defined or stated as anything else. Contraception.

You are going against Church teaching, not mine. Here’s proof:

On September 17, 1983, Pope John Paul II told a group of priests that **“contraception is to be judged objectively so profoundly unlawful as never to be, for any reason, justified. To think or to say the contrary is equal to maintaining that, in human life, situations may arise in which it is lawful not to recognize God as God.” **

So either what a woman does to prevent conception after rape isn’t contraception or you are against the teaching of the Church.

tldm.org/news6/contraception.htm
Uh, yeah, that entire page of quotes was about MARRIAGE. Where is the rest of the text from that 1983 quote?
On June 5, 1987, Pope John Paul II warned clergy and theologians of their grave obligation to faithfully transmit the Church’s teaching on this subject: “A grave responsibility derives from this: those who place themselves in open conflict with the law of God, authentically taught by the Church, guide spouses along a false path. The Church’s teaching on contraception does not belong to the category of matter open to free discussion among theologians. Teaching the contrary amounts to leading the moral consciences of spouses into error.” Pope John Paul II also explained that contraception contradicts and is opposed to true love: “Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality.” (Familiaris Consortio, #32)
In the conjugal act it is not licitly to separate the unitive aspect from the procreative aspect, because both the one and the other pertain to the intimate truth of the conjugal act. The one is activated together with the other and in a certain sense the one by means of the other. This is what the encyclical teaches (cf. Humanae Vitae, 12). Therefore, in such a case the conjugal act, deprived of its interior truth because it is artificially deprived of its procreative capacity, ceases also to be an act of love. (General Audience of August 22, 1984)
The Church has always taught the intrinsic evil of contraception, that is, of every marital act intentionally rendered unfruitful. This teaching is to be held as definitive and irreformable. Contraception is gravely opposed to marital chastity; it is contrary to the good of the transmission of life (the procreative aspect of matrimony) and to the reciprocal self-giving of the spouses (the unitive aspect of matrimony); it harms true love and denies the sovereign role of God in the transmission of life (n. 24).
I’m not even going through the rest of it. You do it and find “rape” in there and let us know. Misinterpreting the teachings of the Church doesn’t make it right and it certainly doesn’t make others responible for following it. The teachings on contraception are regarding marriage because it is a GIVEN that sex outside of marriage is not allowed in the first place. You will not find anywhere in Catholic teaching that ‘contraception is not allowed for unmarried people’. That’s just silly.
 
No one said they were infallible.
However you can’t dismiss him out of hand for that reason. He is a Doctor of the Church and his Summa is the Theological foundation for a large part of our faith. The parts of his teaching that constitute the constant and traditional teaching of the church are in fact infallible by their nature. Their nature, being they are part of the constant and traditional teaching of the church.
You can’t dismiss the Bishops just because you don’t understand the teachings that form the foundations of what they’re saying either.
 
catholictheology.info/summa-theologica/index.php
There is no better overview of Catholic theology than the Summa Theologica of St Thomas Aquinas.
So clearly we know that it is an excellent overview of Catholic theology.
Before this section is closed mention should be made of two books widely known and highly esteemed, which were inspired by and drawn from the writings of St. Thomas. **The Catechism of the Council of Trent, composed by disciples of the Angelic Doctor, is in reality a compendium of his theology, in convenient form for the use of parish priests. **Dante’s “Divina Commedia” has been called “the Summa of St. Thomas in verse”, and commentators trace the great Florentine poet’s divisions and descriptions of the virtues and vices to the “Secunda Secundae”.
His teachings at one time WERE essentially official doctrine, and his works deserve a lot of respect by Catholics. It is extremely unfair to simply dismiss them out of hand.

newadvent.org/cathen/14663b.htm
 
**Uh, yeah, that entire page of quotes was about MARRIAGE. **Where is the rest of the text from that 1983 quote?

I’m not even going through the rest of it. You do it and find “rape” in there and let us know. Misinterpreting the teachings of the Church doesn’t make it right and it certainly doesn’t make others responible for following it. The teachings on contraception are regarding marriage because it is a GIVEN that sex outside of marriage is not allowed in the first place. You will not find anywhere in Catholic teaching that ‘contraception is not allowed for unmarried people’. That’s just silly.
👍 Yes. Conveniently left out the actual context that quote was in.
 
Uh, yeah, that entire page of quotes was about MARRIAGE. Where is the rest of the text from that 1983 quote?
He said it is never to be, for any reason, justified.

Of course the entire thing is referring to contraception in marriage. That’s the point-contraception is defined as taking place in marriage and marriage only. Otherwise he would say it was justified in circumstances outside of marriage. But he didn’t.

Outside of marriage if you take something to prevent conception after rape it is either defined by the Church as something OTHER than contraception or it’s simply wrong.
 
Okay, to clarify, you say that a woman may take contraception after rape. Not to be defined or stated as anything else. Contraception.

You are going against Church teaching, not mine. Here’s proof:

On September 17, 1983, Pope John Paul II told a group of priests that **“contraception is to be judged objectively so profoundly unlawful as never to be, for any reason, justified. To think or to say the contrary is equal to maintaining that, in human life, situations may arise in which it is lawful not to recognize God as God.” **

So either what a woman does to prevent conception after rape isn’t contraception or you are against the teaching of the Church.

tldm.org/news6/contraception.htm
I’m going to post it again:
On June 5, 1987, Pope John Paul II warned clergy and theologians of their grave obligation to faithfully transmit the Church’s teaching on this subject: “A grave responsibility derives from this: those who place themselves in open conflict with the law of God, authentically taught by the Church, guide spouses along a false path. The Church’s teaching on contraception does not belong to the category of matter open to free discussion among theologians. Teaching the contrary amounts to leading the moral consciences of spouses into error.” Pope John Paul II also explained that contraception contradicts and is opposed to true love:** “Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife** is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality.” (Familiaris Consortio, #32)
In the conjugal act it is not licitly to separate the unitive aspect from the procreative aspect, because both the one and the other pertain to the intimate truth of the conjugal act. The one is activated together with the other and in a certain sense the one by means of the other. This is what the encyclical teaches (cf. Humanae Vitae, 12). Therefore, in such a case the conjugal act, deprived of its interior truth because it is artificially deprived of its procreative capacity, ceases also to be an act of love. (General Audience of August 22, 1984)
The Church has always taught the intrinsic evil of contraception, that is, of every marital act intentionally rendered unfruitful. This teaching is to be held as definitive and irreformable. Contraception is gravely opposed to marital chastity; it is contrary to the good of the transmission of life (the procreative aspect of matrimony) and to the reciprocal self-giving of the spouses (the unitive aspect of matrimony); it harms true love and denies the sovereign role of God in the transmission of life (n. 24).
 
catholictheology.info/summa-theologica/index.php

So clearly we know that it is an excellent overview of Catholic theology.

His teachings at one time WERE essentially official doctrine, and his works deserve a lot of respect by Catholics. It is extremely unfair to simply dismiss them out of hand.

newadvent.org/cathen/14663b.htm
It is extremely unfair (and pretty inappropriate) for one to claim their own thoughts about a subject as teachings of the Church when they don’t understand what the teachings of the Church are. I don’t blame you for that. It’s no sin not to know or understand something. But it is inappropriate for one to keep insisting they’re right by pulling quotes out of context and claiming that others are wrong despite pointing out what you have left OUT of your chosen quotes. Those texts are about MARRIED sex, not rape. I am quite sure the collective US Bishops do understand what they’re talking about given their education and extensive training.
 
No, I didn’t. I actually considered writing the context to make a point, but I figured it was obvious and unnecessary.
How was it obvious and unnecessary to leave out the pertinent fact that these texts were about married sex? I think you point was lost because you left out the pertinent facts.
 
You can’t dismiss the Bishops just because you don’t understand the teachings that form the foundations of what they’re saying either.
I realize that this was a response to LJN21, but I want to point out that I’m not dismissing the bishops at all. Questioning them, yes, but not dismissing them. I very well may be understanding this incorrectly.

BUT-I WILL say that if they define preventing conception after rape as contraception, then I completely disagree whatever else I learn. But I’m not sure if they do that or not.

I am allowed to do this for several reasons:
  1. This does not constitute an infallible statement, or even a binding one, because the Magisterium, Pope, or both have not spoken in official capacity. The U.S. bishops gave advice that may or may not be prudent. I am not sure.
  2. We aren’t even sure all of the U.S. bishops were in agreement on this-I doubt it.
 
Very well, context:

Pope John Paul II was talking about married sex. This whole thing was meant for spouses. But he never said that contraception was always wrong within marriage. He said it could NEVER be justified, and was very and vehemently clear about that. He did not qualify “within marriage”, and considering that he said NEVER, this is significant, because the “never” would be wrong. The obvious conclusions here are 1) You can’t contracept after rape or, 2) What occurs to prevent conception after rape isn’t contraception.
 
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