If contraception is intrinsically evil...

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FWIW, I’ve found this thread intriguing. It never understood the USCCB’s position on this particular issue, but it also never occurred to me that Church’s position on contraceptive use has been framed in the context of marriage. It should’ve been obvious to me too, since sex should not occur outside of marriage. It also helps one understand various Church commentary, such as Pope Benedicts’s comments regarding homosexuals using condoms in preventing AIDS.
 
FWIW, I’ve found this thread intriguing. It never understood the USCCB’s position on this particular issue, but it also never occurred to me that Church’s position on contraceptive use has been framed in the context of marriage. It should’ve been obvious to me too, since sex should not occur outside of marriage. It also helps one understand various Church commentary, such as Pope Benedicts’s comments regarding homosexuals using condoms in preventing AIDS.
Exactly! 👍
 
FWIW, I’ve found this thread intriguing. It never understood the USCCB’s position on this particular issue, but it also never occurred to me that Church’s position on contraceptive use has been framed in the context of marriage. It should’ve been obvious to me too, since sex should not occur outside of marriage. It also helps one understand various Church commentary, such as Pope Benedicts’s comments regarding homosexuals using condoms in preventing AIDS.
Ugh. We went over that one.

He in no way was commenting on the morality of condoms. He was commenting that, the thought of protecting another person from decease is the first step of the immoral individual to see others as other people and not just an object to use.
 
Ugh. We went over that one.

He in no way was commenting on the morality of condoms. He was commenting that, the thought of protecting another person from decease is the first step of the immoral individual to see others as other people and not just an object to use.
Cut me some slack there, my fiery friend. 🙂

I said nothing about the morality of that particular issue. It simply noted that this thread helped clear some issues in my mind regarding that matter.
 
Cut me some slack there, my fiery friend. 🙂

I said nothing about the morality of that particular issue. It simply noted that this thread helped clear some issues in my mind regarding that matter.
I knew what you meant. It helped me too.
 
Ugh. We went over that one.

He in no way was commenting on the morality of condoms. He was commenting that, the thought of protecting another person from decease is the first step of the immoral individual to see others as other people and not just an object to use.
And even went so far as to say that he did not consider it either a real or moral solution. Which means that it is still sinful for prostitutes to use contraceptives to avoid the spread of std’s. Anyone who claims that he thought otherwise is twisting his words.
 
This talk about it some. You can google it and find a lot more. lifesitenews.com/news/plan-b-rape-and-abortion-err-on-the-side-of-life
Thanks for the article. It had some good information about testing for ovulation. Apparently, there are two approaches. One is a pregnancy test - but that would only indicate whether the woman was pregnant prior to the rape. The other involves either menstrual history or the more rigorous Peoria Protocol (based on a urine test and blood test) - but even this approach is not 100% reliable - there could be what is called “break-through pregnancy”.

While reviewing the article, it occurred to me that EC would not be necessary if medical tests could definitively prove that ovulation had not taken place/or was not imminent (about to occur within the next few days). In that case, without ovulation, there would be no pregnancy as a result of the rape.
 
Well, my e-mail to my theology teacher is currently half-written (I plan to cannibalize it and send it to Dr. Feser afterward).

He’s one of the two smartest people I’ve ever met and he’s currently working for his Masters in Catholic bioethics, which would include things lke contraception. So I’ll trust his response.

As for Dr. Feser, I’ve never believed anything he’s said to be anything but rock solid.
I would love to hear what he has to say about this because I am with you on the whole distinction between contraception as denounced by the church vs contraception as often used by people in their day to day lives.

To be honest, I think your argument with Deborah at this point really is mostly an argument over terminology. She uses contraception as it is generally used, and then uses a distinct term ‘the sin of contraception’ the way that you or I use the ‘contraception according to the Church’s narrow definition of it’.
 
And even went so far as to say that he did not consider it either a real or moral solution. Which means that it is still sinful for prostitutes to use contraceptives to avoid the spread of std’s. Anyone who claims that he thought otherwise is twisting his words.
Well it’s sinful for prostitutes to do what they do in the first place.

It is just as impermissible for prostitution to happen without a condom as it is for it to happen with a condom… so of course it’s not a moral solution. I think we all understood that perfectly well from the get go.
 
Another thought just occurred to me…I wonder how many people even realize that the meaning of rape has gone through some dramatic changes in recent history. From biblical times up until the modern era, rape referred to the abduction and seduction of a woman still under the authority of her father. In other words, any young, unmarried woman who was seduced OR forcibly violated was raped. In today’s parlance, we might call it statutory rape, but that doesn’t even cover all the possible scenarios meant by rape. A woman under the authority and protection of her father was thought to lack the ability to give free consent to sexual activity. Therefore, it was all rape. Her own culpability only came into question if the rape occurred in a very public location and without threat of violence she decided not to scream for help or fight or run. I think this is mainly because virgins were expected to highly value their chastity and virginity (obviously, right?).
So, even in situations where the girl decided to go along with sexual contact, it was still considered rape, and did injury not only to the girl (her chances at marriage) but also her family (reputation). In those possibly “consensual” scenarios (even though true consent was considered to be lacking), Aquinas would have been quite right to say that contraception would be wrong. Also, remember that the OT (Old Covenant) stated that a rapist may redeem his victim by marrying her! :eek: When I read this as a young girl, I was absolutely horrified. The OT is definitely not age-appropriate reading for young girls, because women were treated as property, and rape was viewed more as a form of theft against the girl’s father than violence against the girl.
Aquinas was likely expounding upon these views espoused in the OT. Also, remember that he stated that ensoulment happens at 40 days for boys and 80 days for girls. Aquinas knew absolutely nothing about genetic material. Modern contraceptive technologies are BASED UPON extensive knowledge of genetic material and fertility. The Church has spoken out loud and clear about the proper context for sexuality, She has redefined rape differently than the ancient understanding of it, She has admitted there are licit uses for oral contraceptive medications, but through it all, She has been shouting from the rooftops that sexual relations are for a validly married husband and wife and that each and every marital act must be unitive and procreative. She has had to be ever more clear about this as the centuries passed, because as human understanding of the natural world has grown, so too has our hubris. She had to take up new terminology, but use them carefully with clarifications, because older terminology doesn’t acknowledge all that we now know about human sexuality, genetics, procreation, etc.

Aquinas might have said contraception even in rape was wrong…I don’t see that specifically said in the documents given here, but in case I missed it, let’s explore that a bit.
Would a saint really have said that repelling a rapist so that he must withdraw prior to ejaculation is wrong?
Would a saint really have said that a virtuous young lady must remain passive during a rape because it is the nature of the venereal act to beget children?
Would a saint really have said she may not cleanse the semen from her private parts after the attack?

I seriously doubt he ever would have meant to imply any of those things. And the fact remains, that our knowledge has grown, and our technology has grown. Aquinas did not know about aggressive little cells called sperm. Aquinas did not know about ovulation. Many of the so-called contraceptive techniques used in the ancient and medieval eras were only possible in consensual sexual behaviors or were actually abortifacient potions and suppositories. These of course would be rejected by him, as well they should by us today.
 
Cut me some slack there, my fiery friend. 🙂

I said nothing about the morality of that particular issue. It simply noted that this thread helped clear some issues in my mind regarding that matter.
Then I don’t understand then why you would bring it up to help solve the morality of this issue. The Pope has clearly stated that condom even to prevent STD’s was not the Moral solution.

To me it sounded like you were trying extrapolate that one part of his statement to mean some how condom (contraception) use out side of marriage.
 
I would love to hear what he has to say about this because I am with you on the whole distinction between contraception as denounced by the church vs contraception as often used by people in their day to day lives.

To be honest, I think your argument with Deborah at this point really is mostly an argument over terminology. She uses contraception as it is generally used, and then uses a distinct term ‘the sin of contraception’ the way that you or I use the ‘contraception according to the Church’s narrow definition of it’.
The problem with you and Marc using this logic (that the Church teaches contraception is only contraception within marriage) is that then you’d both have to agree with me that contraception is only sinful within marriage.

But as I recall, you both have been stating that contraception is still sinful in fornication.

So honestly, I don’t see how that makes any sense to your own logic.
 
The MAP is not been proven to be morally licit.

Condoms and diaphragms are lines of self defense against an unjust aggressor. This is exactly how the Church says it. The intention is not contraception, it is protection.

A rape victim is to defender her self. Again this is exactly how the Church phrases it. The intention is not contraption it is to get away form her attacker.

The victim as a right through natural law to defend against an attacker that has no right to her body. Again this is exactly how the Church phrases it.

Contraception is not ever aloud. Self defense is always moral.

You can say it semantics all day long, but the mean of the words used is very important here. That is why the Church phrases it so carefully.
LJN,
I am not sure why you are responding to me here…? 🤷
I thought you and I were agreeing that rape victims may use Plan B or spermicides following a rape. I thought your main concern is that the terminology the Church uses remains internally consistent. Was I wrong to assume this?
 
Another thought just occurred to me…I wonder how many people even realize that the meaning of rape has gone through some dramatic changes in recent history. From biblical times up until the modern era, rape referred to the abduction and seduction of a woman still under the authority of her father. In other words, any young, unmarried woman who was seduced OR forcibly violated was raped. In today’s parlance, we might call it statutory rape, but that doesn’t even cover all the possible scenarios meant by rape. A woman under the authority and protection of her father was thought to lack the ability to give free consent to sexual activity. Therefore, it was all rape. Her own culpability only came into question if the rape occurred in a very public location and without threat of violence she decided not to scream for help or fight or run. I think this is mainly because virgins were expected to highly value their chastity and virginity (obviously, right?).
So, even in situations where the girl decided to go along with sexual contact, it was still considered rape, and did injury not only to the girl (her chances at marriage) but also her family (reputation). In those possibly “consensual” scenarios (even though true consent was considered to be lacking), Aquinas would have been quite right to say that contraception would be wrong. Also, remember that the OT (Old Covenant) stated that a rapist may redeem his victim by marrying her! :eek: When I read this as a young girl, I was absolutely horrified. The OT is definitely not age-appropriate reading for young girls, because women were treated as property, and rape was viewed more as a form of theft against the girl’s father than violence against the girl.
Aquinas was likely expounding upon these views espoused in the OT. Also, remember that he stated that ensoulment happens at 40 days for boys and 80 days for girls. Aquinas knew absolutely nothing about genetic material. Modern contraceptive technologies are BASED UPON extensive knowledge of genetic material and fertility. The Church has spoken out loud and clear about the proper context for sexuality, She has redefined rape differently than the ancient understanding of it, She has admitted there are licit uses for oral contraceptive medications, but through it all, She has been shouting from the rooftops that sexual relations are for a validly married husband and wife and that each and every marital act must be unitive and procreative. She has had to be ever more clear about this as the centuries passed, because as human understanding of the natural world has grown, so too has our hubris. She had to take up new terminology, but use them carefully with clarifications, because older terminology doesn’t acknowledge all that we now know about human sexuality, genetics, procreation, etc.

Aquinas might have said contraception even in rape was wrong…I don’t see that specifically said in the documents given here, but in case I missed it, let’s explore that a bit.
Would a saint really have said that repelling a rapist so that he must withdraw prior to ejaculation is wrong?
Would a saint really have said that a virtuous young lady must remain passive during a rape because it is the nature of the venereal act to beget children?
Would a saint really have said she may not cleanse the semen from her private parts after the attack?

I seriously doubt he ever would have meant to imply any of those things. And the fact remains, that our knowledge has grown, and our technology has grown. Aquinas did not know about aggressive little cells called sperm. Aquinas did not know about ovulation. Many of the so-called contraceptive techniques used in the ancient and medieval eras were only possible in consensual sexual behaviors or were actually abortifacient potions and suppositories. These of course would be rejected by him, as well they should by us today.
👍
 
The problem with you and Marc using this logic (that the Church teaches contraception is only contraception within marriage) is that then you’d both have to agree with me that contraception is only sinful within marriage.

But as I recall, you both have been stating that contraception is still sinful in fornication.

So honestly, I don’t see how that makes any sense to your own logic.
Whoa, I guess I misunderstood what Mark was saying then. I certainly do not think the Church’s narrower definition of contraception is something relegated only to marriage, but I also think that there is a narrower definition.
 
Thanks for the article. It had some good information about testing for ovulation. Apparently, there are two approaches. One is a pregnancy test - but that would only indicate whether the woman was pregnant prior to the rape. The other involves either menstrual history or the more rigorous Peoria Protocol (based on a urine test and blood test) - but even this approach is not 100% reliable - there could be what is called “break-through pregnancy”.

While reviewing the article, it occurred to me that EC would not be necessary if medical tests could definitively prove that ovulation had not taken place/or was not imminent (about to occur within the next few days). In that case, without ovulation, there would be no pregnancy as a result of the rape.
No, unfortunately, it could still likely be necessary. Sperm can survive for up to and including about five days within the womb, waiting around for ovulation to occur.
 
LJN,
I am not sure why you are responding to me here…? 🤷
I thought you and I were agreeing that rape victims may use Plan B or spermicides following a rape.
I think we’re all on agreement about that (except maybe Marc?) yet we’re all still arguing back and forth for some reason…
 
Whoa, I guess I misunderstood what Mark was saying then. I certainly do not think the Church’s narrower definition of contraception is something relegated only to marriage, but I also think that there is a narrower definition.
Yes that is what he meant.

If I may ask, what is your “narrower definition” of contraception that the Church supposedly uses?

We may actually be in agreement on this “definition.”
 
I think we’re all on agreement about that (except maybe Marc?) yet we’re all still arguing back and forth for some reason…
Oh! Well then, I am gonna take a break.

Good thread, Debora. I hope some good does come of all this contention, though. Especially since it now seems like much ado about nothing.
 
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