If every Bible in the world was destroyed, where would you turn?

[aidanbradypop]

Book of Common Prayer

 

[SteveVH]

Not at all? Can I quote you on that? You just made a lot of protestants’ nights.

You can quote me on that as well. That is the point of this entire thread. The Catholic Church does not depend upon the Bible as its source of faith. If it did it would have been running around for the first 400 years in a state of disarray. In fact, just the opposite happened. It flourished, even under heavy persecution and not one of its dogmas or doctrines ever changed.

 

[Kliska]

I understand, Kliska, but here is something you might want to consider. What you are really comparing is your opinion of what Scripture means to the teachings of the Church.

I am comparing what scripture means to the teachings of the RCC. Yes. Some of the RCC teachings line up, some don’t. That’s what I find.

Now, if we were talking about a math teacher and wondering if he was teaching correctly we would have recourse to definitive answers and there would be no question as to whether or not his teaching was in line with those definitive answers. When we are speaking about questions in which there are now thousands of opinions among non-Catholics, each disagreeing with the other, whose interpretation do you use in order to determine whether or not the Catholic Church’s teaching is in line with Scripture? Is it your own opinion that you hold as the final arbiter of truth?

For me? Absolutely. We are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Searching the scriptures daily to see if what we are being told is true. “It is written” is a oft used phrase for a reason.

Does Jesus Christ appear to you and give you private revelation as to the meaning of Scripture?

As I know for a fact you already know that isn’t how it works, I would like to know why do you ask a question such as this in the manner that you do? Is it for true clarity?

In fact, Jesus, as head of the Church already took care of this problem.

He did; He sent the Spirit. That Spirit gives gifts, and He guides. The gifts that He gives and the guidance He offers is not for a select few, that is never taught in scripture, in fact the opposite is taught. Wisdom is for anyone’s asking and receiving. People have not because they ask not.

He started a Church, made awesome promises concerning his Church and gave it unprecedented authority.

Not in the way you mean, He didn’t.

In fact, he gave the Church his own authority. It is the Church that is called the “Pillar and foundation of Truth” specifically because of the promises Christ made. We are to use the Church’s holy Book, the Bible, in conjunction with the teachings of the Church if it is to be properly understood.

The Church’s job is indeed to show forth Christ, and Christ is the Truth. Jesus did not give over His authority and it is made crystal clear that He is the head of the church. I must be honest and say I find the phrase “the Church’s holy Book” to be highly… off-putting. Scripture is the word of God, not the word of the Church. It’s God’s Holy Book.

Then you should have absolutely zero problem with the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church being able to convey the full knowledge of the Gospel apart from Scripture. By the way, how do you know that you have full knowledge of the Gospel? Is this not an assumption on your part?

There are teachings of the RCC that are directly contradicted by the Scripture. When a church’s teaching goes against scripture in the manner the RCC’s teaching does, I will not be a member of that church. No, that is not an assumption on my part; scripture tells us the gospel message, the good news. Unless you think the writers of the Bible got that wrong?

You can quote me on that as well. That is the point of this entire thread. The Catholic Church does not depend upon the Bible as its source of faith.

That’s not what was said; what was said was, “the RCC does not depend on the bible”

 

[SteveVH]

I am comparing what scripture means to the teachings of the RCC. Yes. Some of the RCC teachings line up, some don’t. That’s what I find.

You are missing the point. You are using your opinion of the meaning of Scripture and then comparing the teachings of the Church to your opinion. Unless you can state that your opinion is infallible then all you are left with to compare is your understanding to the understanding of the Church.

For me? Absolutely. We are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Searching the scriptures daily to see if what we are being told is true. “It is written” is a oft used phrase for a reason.

What I asked was this:

Is it your own opinion that you hold as the final arbiter of truth?

And so you are willing to admit that the final arbiter of truth is you? The Bible, then, is not your final authority. You are. Of course the Bible, to which you look for truth, says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, not you. So how do you rectify this?

As I know for a fact you already know that isn’t how it works, I would like to know why do you ask a question such as this in the manner that you do? Is it for true clarity?

I ask because you infer that since God is the authority you don’t need the Church as an authority. How then does God communicate his truth to you in the absence of Scripture?

He did; He sent the Spirit. That Spirit gives gifts, and He guides. The gifts that He gives and the guidance He offers is not for a select few, that is never taught in scripture, in fact the opposite is taught. Wisdom is for anyone’s asking and receiving. People have not because they ask not.

But you are leaving out one, very important thing that Christ did. He gave authority to Peter and the Apostles and started a Church. He didn’t pass out Bibles and tell everyone good luck. Nor did he give authority to each and every individual believer. His truth is meant for everyone and in order to guaranty that they would receive the truth he started a Church which he promised would be led into all truth by the Holy Spirit.

Not in the way you mean, He didn’t.

Please explain.

The Church’s job is indeed to show forth Christ, and Christ is the Truth. Jesus did not give over His authority and it is made crystal clear that He is the head of the church.

Of course Jesus is the head of the Church. We have proclaimed that for 2000 years. It is precisely this very fact that prevents the Church he founded from falling into error. It is his Church, not man’s Church.

As to your statement “Jesus did not give over His authority”, who’s authority did they receive when they were given the power to bind in heaven what is bound on earth and to loose in heaven what is loosed on earth? Who’s authority did they receive when they were given the power to forgive sins? The Church is sent by Jesus, just as Jesus was sent by the Father; with authority.

I must be honest and say I find the phrase “the Church’s holy Book” to be highly… off-putting. Scripture is the word of God, not the word of the Church. It’s God’s Holy Book.

How do you know it’s God’s holy book?

There are teachings of the RCC that are directly contradicted by the Scripture.

That’s quite a statement to make without backing it up with evidence. Please tell us which teachings of the Catholic Church are contradicted by Scripture and how they are contradicted by Scripture.

When a church’s teaching goes against scripture in the manner the RCC’s teaching does, I will not be a member of that church.

Nor would I. If you can demonstrate that the Catholic Church teaches in contradiction to Scripture I will leave today and join your denomination.

No, that is not an assumption on my part; scripture tells us the gospel message, the good news. Unless you think the writers of the Bible got that wrong?

For simplicity’s sake, this is the question to which you were responding:

Originally Posted by SteveVH
By the way, how do you know that you have full knowledge of the Gospel? Is this not an assumption on your part?

You are telling me that you have full knowledge of the Gospel and that this claim is not just an assumption on your part. And earlier you verified your claim to be the final arbiter of truth. Is there something we all should know about you or do you attribute this faculty to everyone who calls themselves Christian? Except Catholics, and therefore probably the Orthodox as well. If everyone can claim full knowledge of the Gospel then to whom do we turn when there is disagreement and why would there be any disagreement to begin with? And if everyone can’t make the same claim as you then where did you acquire this unique ability?

That’s not what was said; what was said was, “the RCC does not depend on the bible”

And that is a true statement. The Bible didn’t give us the Church. The Church gave us the Bible. And the only way the Church could determine the truth in those writings is because they already possessed the truth present in those writings. The Church does not depend on the Bible, the Bible depends on the Church in order to convey the truth present, and many times hidden, in the pages of Scripture.

 

[Publisher]

Seek the Light…go to the One who inspired scripture in the first place. Seek His will…Seek His Voice on the matter.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

What if you can find Eli?

 

[SteveVH]

Seek the Light…go to the One who inspired scripture in the first place. Seek His will…Seek His Voice on the matter.

Seek his Church. That is where you will find his light, his will and his voice. That is why he founded it.

 

[Kliska]

You are using your opinion of the meaning of Scripture and then comparing the teachings of the Church to your opinion.

Absolutely I am. I believe in a living relationship with Christ and that fact that I’m indwelt with the Spirit. When I read and pray and study certain scriptures and then do the same with certain RCC teaching, the teaching of the RCC conflicts with scripture. If it didn’t, I’d be a RC.

Unless you can state that your opinion is infallible then all you are left with to compare is your understanding to the understanding of the Church.

We’ve been over this again and again; you trust one specific group of people to be doing the interpreting on an infallible level, I don’t. I don’t see that taught in scripture. Paul even said that he, St. Paul the Apostle personally trained by Jesus and lead directly by the Spirit, was capable of teaching a different gospel, and if he ever did, to let himself be accursed. That tells me I must be extraordinarily careful who I believe. That’s why any teacher or preacher worth their salt will constantly be tell their congregants or students to check to see if scripture backs them up.

And so you are willing to admit that the final arbiter of truth is you?

I’m not God… thank God. He is the final arbiter of truth.

The Bible, then, is not your final authority.

God is.

So how do you rectify this?

I don’t have to “rectify” anything; the church IS the pillar and foundation of truth. Truth is a person. The church’s job is to show forth Christ.

How then does God communicate his truth to you in the absence of Scripture?

Your hypothetical isn’t real, I have scripture, the word of God. I have the Spirit indwelling me. The two are a potent, living and real combination.

But you are leaving out one, very important thing that Christ did. He gave authority to Peter and the Apostles and started a Church. He didn’t pass out Bibles and tell everyone good luck. Nor did he give authority to each and every individual believer. His truth is meant for everyone and in order to guaranty that they would receive the truth he started a Church which he promised would be led into all truth by the Holy Spirit.

Again, that is the RCC’s take on it; we know that. That isn’t what I believe scripture teaches.

Of course Jesus is the head of the Church. We have proclaimed that for 2000 years. It is precisely this very fact that prevents the Church he founded from falling into error. It is his Church, not man’s Church.

The true church is indeed His church. Organizational and institutional groups of humans do fall into error. I think at this point it is kind of beating a dead horse because even the Orthodox do not believe all the teachings of the RCC. We protestants don’t either, and most of us differ in more aspects from the RCC than do the Orthodox. This isn’t a surprise and isn’t something we are all going to solve on a messageboard, though I adore a great conversation!

As to your statement “Jesus did not give over His authority”, who’s authority did they receive when they were given the power to bind in heaven what is bound on earth and to loose in heaven what is loosed on earth? Who’s authority did they receive when they were given the power to forgive sins? The Church is sent by Jesus, just as Jesus was sent by the Father; with authority.

Yes, but what that authority contains and who has it is where we are going to differ. My original point is that Jesus did not give up His authority He is still the head of the church and the church only has one head.

How do you know it’s God’s holy book?

I’ve given my testimony elsewhere, though obviously that’s not what you really mean. I know in the same manner as the RCC also *recognizes *the manuscripts.

That’s quite a statement to make without backing it up with evidence. Please tell us which teachings of the Catholic Church are contradicted by Scripture and how they are contradicted by Scripture.

Umm… no. Again; your turf your rules. I’m not here to attack the RCC.

Nor would I. If you can demonstrate that the Catholic Church teaches in contradiction to Scripture I will leave today and join your denomination.

I’m non-denominational. You go where the Spirit leads you, if that is the RCC, God bless!

You are telling me that you have full knowledge of the Gospel and that this claim is not just an assumption on your part. And earlier you verified your claim to be the final arbiter of truth.

Again, fail: God is the final arbiter, period.

Is there something we all should know about you or do you attribute this faculty to everyone who calls themselves Christian? Except Catholics, and therefore probably the Orthodox as well. If everyone can claim full knowledge of the Gospel then to whom do we turn when there is disagreement and why would there be any disagreement to begin with? And if everyone can’t make the same claim as you then where did you acquire this unique ability?

Everyone has the same capability to utilize the gifts God gives, if they are indwelt and sealed by the Spirit. What a person does with those gifts is between them and God.

And that is a true statement. The Bible didn’t give us the Church. The Church gave us the Bible.

Wrong. God gave us the Bible.

And the only way the Church could determine the truth in those writings is because they already possessed the truth present in those writings. The Church does not depend on the Bible, the Bible depends on the Church in order to convey the truth present, and many times hidden, in the pages of Scripture.

Again, dead horse territory.

 

[SteveVH]

Umm… no. Again; your turf your rules. I’m not here to attack the RCC.

You just claimed that the Catholic Church’s teachings are in contradiction to Scripture. You already made the attack, now you are simply hiding behind a rule that doesn’t apply. This would be like me throwing out the claim that Evangelicals don’t believe in the divinity of Christ and then offering no evidence to support that statement with the excuse that I don’t want to attack Evangelicals.

We are not afraid of truth. If you have evidence in support of your statement then please give it. Otherwise don’t make the statement to begin with. In this case the toothpaste is already out of the tube. So lets hear it.

 

[Kliska]

You just claimed that the Catholic Church’s teachings are in contradiction to Scripture. You already made the attack, now you are simply hiding behind a rule that doesn’t apply. This would be like me throwing out the claim that Evangelicals don’t believe in the divinity of Christ and then offering no evidence to support that statement with the excuse that I don’t want to attack Evangelicals.

We are not afraid of truth. If you have evidence in support of your statement then please give it. Otherwise don’t make the statement to begin with. In this case the toothpaste is already out of the tube. So lets hear it.

Sorry, no. I made my statement, that is allowed because it has been asked by another. Proselytizing, however, is not. The fact that I think the RCC’s teachings are in contradiction should be no surprise as I freely admit I’m a Protestant.

 

[SteveVH]

Sorry, no. I made my statement, that is allowed because it has been asked by another. Proselytizing, however, is not. The fact that I think the RCC’s teachings are in contradiction should be no surprise as I freely admit I’m a Protestant.

So let me see if I understand.

Stating that the Catholic Church’s teachings are in contradiction to Scripture is okay.

Providing evidence for that statement however, is not allowed by the moderators.

Something seems a little off here, don’t you think?

 

[Kliska]

So let me see if I understand.

Stating that the Catholic Church’s teachings are in contradiction to Scripture is okay.

Providing evidence for that statement however, is not allowed by the moderators.

Something seems a little off here, don’t you think?

You can ask a mod to review the statement and they can weigh in if I’m in error on forum rules. Really, if it is an issue that needs clarified, that’s what I’d do. I see no reason too, however, as that is the rule. I answered a question put to me, but I refuse to proselytize an entirely protestant perspective that would offend those here.

Grace and Peace

 

[SoMissCatholic]

I am comparing what scripture means to the teachings of the RCC. Yes. Some of the RCC teachings line up, some don’t. That’s what I find.

How do you know what scripture means? Did you read scripture and then come to the conclusions that form the basis of your belief system, or were you taught a belief system first, and interpret scripture in light of that? Surely you must recognize that two reasonable men could read the same verses of scripture and in good faith come to different conclusions. Otherwise, we wouldn’t have thousands of different denominations, each interpreting scripture with varying degrees of difference. So, how do you know whose interpretation of scripture is right?

He did; He sent the Spirit. That Spirit gives gifts, and He guides. The gifts that He gives and the guidance He offers is not for a select few, that is never taught in scripture, in fact the opposite is taught. Wisdom is for anyone’s asking and receiving. People have not because they ask not.

As I said above, what happens when two people, both having asked for guidance from the Holy Spirit, come to different conclusions about what is meant by a certain passage? God is truth. The Holy Spirit is God. Therefore, the Holy Spirit could not lead two people to come to two different conclusions because that would mean the Holy Spirit is contradicting itself. God cannot contradict Himself. It is contrary to His nature. Therefore, that must mean that one or both of the people are in fact not being led by the Holy Spirit. How are we to know which one is correct?

The Church’s job is indeed to show forth Christ, and Christ is the Truth. ** Jesus did not give over His authority** and it is made crystal clear that He is the head of the church. I must be honest and say I find the phrase “the Church’s holy Book” to be highly… off-putting. Scripture is the word of God, not the word of the Church. It’s God’s Holy Book.

“After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others whom he sent ahead of him in pairs to every town and place he intended to visit. He said to them, 'The harvest is abundant but the laborers are few; so ask the master of the harvest to send out laborers for his harvest. Go on your way; behold, I am sending you like lambs among wolves. . . . Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” (Luke 10:1-3, 16)

“Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.’” (John 20:21-23)

“Then Jesus approached and said to them {the Apostles}, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (Matt. 28:18-20)

These passages seem to make it pretty clear that Jesus in fact did give over his authority to the Apostles. Again, though, it appears your interpretation differs from mine, so where are we to turn to find out the correct meaning of these passages?

 

[Kliska]

How do you know what scripture means? Did you read scripture and then come to the conclusions that form the basis of your belief system, or were you taught a belief system first, and interpret scripture in light of that?

In philosophy, to stop at our own biases, that is called a “whimpering” response. I believe we are all taught things by people in our lives and it is up to us, as we grow and learn to check those beliefs. I know what scripture means by study, by prayer, and by the guidance of the Spirit. He’s not done with me yet, so I don’t claim to have all the answers, but He does.

Surely you must recognize that two reasonable men could read the same verses of scripture and in good faith come to different conclusions. Otherwise, we wouldn’t have thousands of different denominations, each interpreting scripture with varying degrees of difference. So, how do you know whose interpretation of scripture is right?

We have to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. I believe we are each responsible for our beliefs. I do totally see that humans do that all the time; we are doing that here. We can’t both be right, but we know the Spirit always is. Therefore the problem is with mankind, not with the Spirit. So, for example, even those like the RCC and Orthodox that agree on many things have disagreement over something as important as the Primacy of Rome. Tradition is fought over as much as scripture. Man is the problem, not God.

These passages seem to make it pretty clear that Jesus in fact did give over his authority to the Apostles. Again, though, it appears your interpretation differs from mine, so where are we to turn to find out the correct meaning of these passages?

I’d note that it isn’t just my interpretation that differs from the RCC, but whole other churches and congregations. I turn to scripture, study, prayer and the Holy Spirit.

 

[SoMissCatholic]

We have to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. I believe we are each responsible for our beliefs. I do totally see that humans do that all the time; we are doing that here. We can’t both be right, but we know the Spirit always is. Therefore the problem is with mankind, not with the Spirit. So, for example, even those like the RCC and Orthodox that agree on many things have disagreement over something as important as the Primacy of Rome. Tradition is fought over as much as scripture. Man is the problem, not God.

Yes, the Holy Spirit is always right, but how are we to know what that “right” is? I agree with you that the problem is with mankind, and we can do many things to deceive ourselves, even into thinking we are following where the Holy Spirit is leading us. Given that, do you not think that God–a God that loves us so much that He sent His only begotten Son to suffer and die for us; a God that wills that all should be saved–would leave us with more than just our own discernment (sincere though it may be)? Doesn’t it make more sense that God would leave us with a clear and definitive way to know what the truth is? I know you would say that God left us the Holy Spirit, and I recognize that, but again, people who are genuinely and truly trying to follow the Holy Spirit come to different conclusions on this stuff all the time. I know you will disagree, but that is why it makes complete and perfect sense to me that Christ left us with an infallible (not impeccable) church, that He protects from teaching error in matters of faith and morals. I love the fact that if I have a question about how something should be interpreted or what the correct moral position on something should be, I can turn to the Church, and it will guide me into all truth because the Holy Spirit has, in turn, guided it into all truth. I may not like the answer or even necessarily agree with it at first, but I can absolutely know for certain what the answer is, and what the standard is if I am to conform myself to the imitation of Christ that we are all called to be.

I’d note that it isn’t just my interpretation that differs from the RCC, but whole other churches and congregations. I turn to scripture, study, prayer and the Holy Spirit.

I realize that it is not just your interpretation. I was speaking in the singular to go along with the point I was making. I would point out though, that on the question of Christ giving authority to His Apostles, who in turn have passed it down from generation to generation to the present day (what we call apostolic succession) is answered in the affirmative by nearly 80% of the estimated 2.2 billion Christians in the world (including Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglicans, and Lutherans).

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, peace be with you during this joyous season of our Lord’s birth!

 

[Isaiah45_9]

We have to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. I believe we are each responsible for our beliefs. I do totally see that humans do that all the time; we are doing that here. We can’t both be right, but we know the Spirit always is. Therefore the problem is with mankind, not with the Spirit. So, for example, even those like the RCC and Orthodox that agree on many things have disagreement over something as important as the Primacy of Rome. Tradition is fought over as much as scripture. Man is the problem, not God.

Indeed. The problem is that each one is claiming the Holy Spirit as their source of guidance and revelation.

I’d note that it isn’t just my interpretation that differs from the RCC, but whole other churches and congregations. I turn to scripture, study, prayer and the Holy Spirit.

Really? Maybe that’s why they are not Catholic… lol - sorry couldn’t help it.

See my comment above. So when each is claiming to be following the Spirit - who then is correct?

You can find the answer in 1 Timothy 3:15.

 

[Kliska]

Yes, the Holy Spirit is always right, but how are we to know what that “right” is? I agree with you that the problem is with mankind, and we can do many things to deceive ourselves, even into thinking we are following where the Holy Spirit is leading us. Given that, do you not think that God–a God that loves us so much that He sent His only begotten Son to suffer and die for us; a God that wills that all should be saved–would leave us with more than just our own discernment (sincere though it may be)? Doesn’t it make more sense that God would leave us with a clear and definitive way to know what the truth is? I know you would say that God left us the Holy Spirit, and I recognize that, but again, people who are genuinely and truly trying to follow the Holy Spirit come to different conclusions on this stuff all the time. I know you will disagree, but that is why it makes complete and perfect sense to me that Christ left us with an infallible (not impeccable) church, that He protects from teaching error in matters of faith and morals. I love the fact that if I have a question about how something should be interpreted or what the correct moral position on something should be, I can turn to the Church, and it will guide me into all truth because the Holy Spirit has, in turn, guided it into all truth. I may not like the answer or even necessarily agree with it at first, but I can absolutely know for certain what the answer is, and what the standard is if I am to conform myself to the imitation of Christ that we are all called to be.

I do truly understand that is a great comfort to you, and to millions. But for me, it removes the responsibility from me, to a group of other humans. I truly wouldn’t have a problem with that if I saw it taught in scripture that, indeed, was the way God meant it to be. From my perspective God wants and has a direct relationship to me, as an individual who belongs to His Church. I see a definite understanding in scripture that what is written has a power in preserving teaching. When we have that written word of God we use it for a check. That, I see, is the responsibility of everyone that has access to the word. If Paul warns me of false teachers and the fact that even if he or an angel preach a different gospel to let him/them be accursed, I again, am going to make awfully sure that they are getting it right. lol AND, I do recognize you feel the same!

I realize that it is not just your interpretation. I was speaking in the singular to go along with the point I was making. I would point out though, that on the question of Christ giving authority to His Apostles, who in turn have passed it down from generation to generation to the present day (what we call apostolic succession) is answered in the affirmative by nearly 80% of the estimated 2.2 billion Christians in the world (including Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglicans, and Lutherans).

Yes, but then we still have the arguing over the interpretation of that, the tradition of primacy, as well as the exact meaning of AS.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, peace be with you during this joyous season of our Lord’s birth!

Thank you, and also to you and your loved ones and the whole church family. Grace and Peace!

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
I realize that it is not just your interpretation. I was speaking in the singular to go along with the point I was making. I would point out though, that on the question of Christ giving authority to His Apostles, who in turn have passed it down from generation to generation to the present day (what we call apostolic succession) is answered in the affirmative by nearly 80% of the estimated 2.2 billion Christians in the world (including Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglicans, and Lutherans).

Kliska:
Yes, but then we still have the arguing over the interpretation of that, the tradition of primacy, as well as the exact meaning of AS.

I have been so curious to read the scores of sources displaying all this “arguing” over the primacy and the exact meaning of Apostolic Succession in the year 300,550,900?

 

[adawgj]

If we put ourselves in this Fahrenheit 451 situation I think we would probably try to memorize it all. If that’s how the Jews and early Christians preserved scripture and tradition then we should too.

 

[Kliska]

Please don’t make me memorize the book of Numbers… … It’s my Kryptonite.