If God doesn't exist, is there any point in being a good person?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Bohm_Bawerk
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
All I know is my sister is an atheist and she is one of the most charitable, giving and selfless persons I know. She is a hospice nurse and runs a hospice service for a hospital. In addition to the usual “debriefing” meeting every week these nurse need so desperately, she includes a prayer service at the end - she asks those who aren’t believers to join her in meditating while the rest pray. She fully supports the power of prayer.

In addition to helping people go to God peacefully (during which she will read the bible, help them in prayers or contact priest or minister to assist), she spends countless hours bringing meals and comfort to whoever she runs into who needs such. Getting far flung kindred to write letters or send videos, making sure the dog gets adopted so “mama” can die peacefully… you name it, my sister has done it. On her own time. To the point of exhaustion. Why?

All her life, she has dedicated hours volunteering to provide a Christmas party for homeless children - no one even knew she did this until one Christmas at her home (she always hosted a big family gathering), she nearly passed out from fatigue having gone for days with little rest and then the emotions of seeing some sweet children beg to forgo their own tiny present in order to bring it to a sick relative or parent, instead. Selfless giving AND refusal to take credit and every attempt to stay anonymous. That’s my sister.

She has “ministered” not only to the dying, but to families and friends and spends countless hours doing deeds of kindness.

Most importantly to me, she is the only one in my family who supported me in my “choice” to not abort my son when we found out he would have Down syndrome. The Jews, Catholics and Evangelical Christians all expected me or pressured me to abort, and none have supported me since. Only my sister, the pro-choice Atheist said - you chose life, and that is you choice and I support you. Total love and acceptance from the first moment we heard the news.

I don’t know why an Atheist can be a good, moral person, nonetheless better and more moral than any Christian I know personally. But it is a fact for me.

I do know that hundreds of Jews, Catholics, Muslims, Hindus and Atheists consider her a Saint.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Luke
**
Now obviously an atheist can have a different opinion on what should be desired and acted for, based on his values, and therefore still be a “good” person under his value system.**

It’s good that you put “good” in quotes, because the “good” of an atheist might be the evil of a Christian. Yes, atheists are relativists for the most part, and sometimes you will find diametrically opposite systems of morality among them. How will society function in such a morally chaotic universe?

As the Archbishop of New York recently pointed out, same sex marriage may well be the prelude to legalizing polygamy. But why not incestuous marriage as well, and even the legalization of sex between adults and children, as Nambla demands?

If all moralities are equal as a matter of free choice, who is to draw the line and where is it to be drawn?
Click to expand...
Aren’t believers also moral relativists to some extent? Or do you believe the moral beliefs of all religions, or even among the members of a single religion, are all alike?
 
sojo said:
All I know is my sister is an atheist and she is one of the most charitable, giving and selfless persons I know. She is a hospice nurse and runs a hospice service for a hospital. In addition to the usual “debriefing” meeting every week these nurse need so desperately, she includes a prayer service at the end - she asks those who aren’t believers to join her in meditating while the rest pray. She fully supports the power of prayer.

In addition to helping people go to God peacefully (during which she will read the bible, help them in prayers or contact priest or minister to assist), she spends countless hours bringing meals and comfort to whoever she runs into who needs such. Getting far flung kindred to write letters or send videos, making sure the dog gets adopted so “mama” can die peacefully… you name it, my sister has done it. On her own time. To the point of exhaustion. Why?

All her life, she has dedicated hours volunteering to provide a Christmas party for homeless children - no one even knew she did this until one Christmas at her home (she always hosted a big family gathering), she nearly passed out from fatigue having gone for days with little rest and then the emotions of seeing some sweet children beg to forgo their own tiny present in order to bring it to a sick relative or parent, instead. Selfless giving AND refusal to take credit and every attempt to stay anonymous. That’s my sister.

She has “ministered” not only to the dying, but to families and friends and spends countless hours doing deeds of kindness.

Most importantly to me, she is the only one in my family who supported me in my “choice” to not abort my son when we found out he would have Down syndrome. The Jews, Catholics and Evangelical Christians all expected me or pressured me to abort, and none have supported me since. Only my sister, the pro-choice Atheist said - you chose life, and that is you choice and I support you. Total love and acceptance from the first moment we heard the news.

I don’t know why an Atheist can be a good, moral person, nonetheless better and more moral than any Christian I know personally. But it is a fact for me.

I do know that hundreds of Jews, Catholics, Muslims, Hindus and Atheists consider her a Saint.
Click to expand...
This is God in your sister. She doesn’t believe in him but he believes in her. She just doesn’t realize that she’s doing God’s work.
 
Bohm_Bawerk said:
This …
Click to expand...
Nope, not in the least. Without G-d there isn’t even a concept called “good” that is anything more than peoples opinion. If opinion is the basis of morality than my opinion is as good as anyone else on the subject.
 
meltzerboy said:
Aren’t believers also moral relativists to some extent? Or do you believe the moral beliefs of all religions, or even among the members of a single religion, are all alike?
Click to expand...
A very good point, and one that needs to be taken more seriously rather than brushed off to the sidelines.

I actually came on the thread to ask if anyone knew why people believed that Atheists ate babies or that Jews ground them up into Matzos? What is the point though?
The OP is looking for a point.

I hope the point is not that we should allow incest under certian circumstances. Or a number of other things.
 
StrawberryJam said:
A very good point, and one that needs to be taken more seriously rather than brushed off to the sidelines.

I actually came on the thread to ask if anyone knew why people believed that Atheists ate babies or that Jews ground them up into Matzos? What is the point though?
The OP is looking for a point.

I hope the point is not that we should allow incest under certian circumstances. Or a number of other things.
Click to expand...
Are you accusing me of asking a loaded question (refer to the part which I’ve emboldened)?

If so, you’re wrong. I’m not asking a loaded question or trying to “bait” a specific group. I do not think that all religious people are saints. Which leads me to wonder: If you had nothing to contribute whatsoever, why bother responding to the question I posed on this thread?
 
Bohm_Bawerk said:
Are you accusing me of asking a loaded question (refer to the part which I’ve emboldened)?

If so, you’re wrong. I’m not asking a loaded question or trying to “bait” a specific group. I do not think that all religious people are saints. Which leads me to wonder: If you had nothing to contribute whatsoever, why bother responding to the question I posed on this thread?
Click to expand...
Wonderment is a part of supernatural belief and a part of non supernatural belief.
What leads you to wonder what you do is not something I can speculate on.
 
karebear92 said:
Was that towards Ricky Gervais or my comment?
Click to expand...
Sorry. I guess I should have written “poppycock” or that might be considered impolite as well. It was definitely in regards to his comment, not yours. It is like depending on everyone else to be vaccinated so you don’t catch the disease.
 
Hello everyone,

Thank you for all the replies. I’m reading quite a lot currently, and based on my own observation, the evidence is not in God’s favour of His existence.

The question that I posed here was answered by the great philosopher Bertrand Russell:

“There is a moralistic argument for belief in God, which was popularized by William
James. According to this argument, we ought to believe in God because, if we do
not, we shall not behave well. The first and greatest objection to this argument is
that, at its best, it cannot prove that there is a God but only that politicians and
educators ought to try to make people think there is one. Whether this ought to be
done or not is not a theological question but a political one. . . .] In the nursery, belief in
Father Christmas is useful, but grown-up people do not think that this proves
Father Christmas to be real.” (Is there a God, page 4).
 
Perplexity said:
This is very question-beggy to me, since from an atheist’s perspective; God doesn’t exist and many, many non-theists are moral persons. There have been many moral theories drawn up which are available to the non-theist. The most popular meta-ethical position is non-cognitivism, wiki has a good page on it. Check out ‘the veil of ignorance’ as well.
Click to expand...
Among Nietzsche’s many deep insights is his recognition is that the morality of the Last Man (even the atheist) is a decayed Christian morality. Why not the morality of the Samurai or any other “life-giving” morality? See the preface of Beyond Good and Evil.
 
It is rather sad to me that so many of the responders consider belief in God a requirement for moral and ethical behavior. Does that mean that if you lost your faith you’d be off raping your thirteen year old neighbor? Perhaps it best for rest of us that you do believe.

Belief in God is definitely not a requirement for being a moral and ethical person. I would even question whether behavior rooted in obedience can really be called moral or ethical? Well I suppose I would call it the morality of a child. Non religious based ethics requires a greater degree of understanding and an adult relationship to the world. It must be superior to one enforced by the threat of damnation. Which is really just the ultimate spanking.
 
If God did not exist, there would be no objective good or evil, so there would be no such thing as being a good person. One could choose to be kind, civil, courteous, etc., but this would amount to nothing beyond the moment. There would really be no point in trying to be ‘good’, because if there were no God, we would only be intelligent animals, and all good would go unrewarded, and all evil unpunished.
 
mcteague said:
It is rather sad to me that so many of the responders consider belief in God a requirement for moral and ethical behavior.
Click to expand...
That’s not quite it. If God exists then both the believer and the unbeliever can behave morally, but if God does not exist then neither can behave morally because morality itself cannot exist.

If you disagree with this - as I suspect you do - then I would like to hear your definition of morality.

Ender
 
Ender said:
That’s not quite it. If God exists then both the believer and the unbeliever can behave morally, but if God does not exist then neither can behave morally because morality itself cannot exist.

If you disagree with this - as I suspect you do - then I would like to hear your definition of morality.

Ender
Click to expand...
It is true that from an etymological standpoint morality has a religious basis. That is what distinguishes it from ethics. But that is something of a semantic defense. Let us ask instead, can “the good” be known in the absence of God? Is a purely secular ethic possible? I believe it can. I believe that we are capable of that reasoning. I think we are obligated to do so.
For example, we can reason that no person is inherently more valuable than another. From this we can develop a many additional moral or ethical ideas.
 
Bohm_Bawerk said:
Hello everyone,

Thank you for all the replies. I’m reading quite a lot currently, and based on my own observation, the evidence is not in God’s favour of His existence.

The question that I posed here was answered by the great philosopher Bertrand Russell:

“There is a moralistic argument for belief in God, which was popularized by William
James. According to this argument, we ought to believe in God because, if we do
not, we shall not behave well. The first and greatest objection to this argument is
that, at its best, it cannot prove that there is a God but only that politicians and
educators ought to try to make people think there is one. Whether this ought to be
done or not is not a theological question but a political one. . . .] In the nursery, belief in
Father Christmas is useful, but grown-up people do not think that this proves
Father Christmas to be real.” (Is there a God, page 4).
Click to expand...
That is expediency not morality!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top