If God is all knowing

[fhansen]

If God is all knowing, he had the knowledge that I would lose my faith, and the knowledge of how to prevent it. That means that God either didn’t want to or couldn’t stop me. He has, it is claimed, intervened for other people. Ergo, the only explanation if God is all knowing and all powerful is that he didn’t want me to believe.

You’re speaking in past tense, as if its all over. Are you near death? Do you presume to know the future? Could your negative experiences thus far not end up being a stepping stone to positive ones? it aint over til the fat lady sings, as they still say, once in awhile.

 

[PraiseChrist]

You know, I’m getting old and I’m sleep-deprived a lot of the time, but somehow, I remember…
vaguely…
that there was a few good lines somewhere in the Bible.
Something about not putting the Lord thy God to the test.
It sounded nice and poetic.
I think they could be relevant to this situation…
For the Greeks seek wisdom and the Jews asks for signs…
An evil and adulterous generation asks for a sign, but no sign shall be given it…
Something to do with Jonah…
…it’ll probably come back to me sometime.
Praying for you, CuriousCat. Perhaps, since cats have nine lives, Our Lord is also giving you a large number of chances to turn around. Only, we have to play by His rules, not ours. Hard as it may seem. I think the Bible also had an entire book about that…
…something about a job? Help me here, people!

Matthew 12: 38-42 Douay Rheims Bible
Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying: Master we would see a sign from thee. Who answering said to them: An evil and adulterous generation seeketh a sign: and a sign shall not be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. For as Jonas was in the whale’ s belly three days and three nights: so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. The men of Ninive shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they did penance at the preaching of Jonas. And behold a greater than Jonas here. The queen of the south shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold a greater than Solomon here.

 

[PraiseChrist]

You know, I’m getting old and I’m sleep-deprived a lot of the time, but somehow, I remember…
vaguely…
that there was a few good lines somewhere in the Bible.
Something about not putting the Lord thy God to the test.
It sounded nice and poetic.
I think they could be relevant to this situation…
For the Greeks seek wisdom and the Jews asks for signs…
An evil and adulterous generation asks for a sign, but no sign shall be given it…
Something to do with Jonah…

…it’ll probably come back to me sometime.

Praying for you, CuriousCat. Perhaps, since cats have nine lives, Our Lord is also giving you a large number of chances to turn around. Only, we have to play by His rules, not ours. Hard as it may seem. I think the Bible also had an entire book about that…

…something about a job? Help me here, people!

Matthew 12: 38-42 Douay Rheims Bible
Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying: Master we would see a sign from thee. Who answering said to them: An evil and adulterous generation seeketh a sign: and a sign shall not be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. For as Jonas was in the whale’ s belly three days and three nights: so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. The men of Ninive shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they did penance at the preaching of Jonas. And behold a greater than Jonas here. The queen of the south shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold a greater than Solomon here.

 

[Bradski]

People seem weirdly caught up on that.

There is a phrase that only I know. To figure out this phrase you would either need to be ridiculously lucky, or able to access my mind without me knowing about it.

An extremely talented conartist might get it out of me without my knowing, but it is pretty unlikely. If God wants me to know something, he merely has to get the messenger to use the code.

Do you have other codes for other beliefs?

Exceptionally wierd.

 

[Della]

Force and provide sufficient evidence are two different things. Do you believe the story that he showed Thomas the holes in his hands and feet? Why did he “force” Thomas to believe? He also “forced” Paul apparently.

Jesus didn’t force either one to believe. He showed himself as he truly is to both and they decided to believe.

 

[LethalMouse]

Do you have other codes for other beliefs?

Exceptionally wierd.

When the atheist thinks the required God code is weird, the codemaker may want to reconsider his stance lol

 

[MatthewTrainor]

(1) God knows people who disbelieve will continue to do so, but still decides to send prophets, requires coverts and chooses to sacrifice himself even though he knows in advance some people will not repent. This would entail that God only did this stuff for the select few while purposely leaving some lost.

It would also mean that he lied when he said man was free as he already sketched all the choices in advance and left man with only an illusion of being free. (For while we may think we’re choosing option A over opetion [sic] B, God already decided we’d choose option A therefore we will necessarily choose it.)

(2) God truly wishes all people to be saved, leaves us with freedom to accept him, but at the price of that he doesn’t control everything (as he left us to freely choose what we do, therefore losing his providence) and since he doesn’t know who will do what (as this is necessary for free will) he isn’t omniscient.
…
Can anyone help with this question? It’s a crisis of faith for me, which is a shame since as soon as we’ve got these contradictions sorted out, we would already win the debate of whether there is or isn’t God. All or nothing guys, help please.

You have fallen into the common error of believing that our free will cannot logically coexist with God’s omnipotence and/or omniscience. There is nothing contradictory at all. Here is a scenario that will hopefully make it clear:

Suppose that you have a five year old niece (or other young member of your family / friend circle that you love very much), and she looooooooves chocolate. I mean she really really loves it. Every time someone asks her what she wants for her birthday or Christmas she says “CHOCHOLATE!” and every time she draws a picture of herself she is drawn eating chocolate. EVERY. TIME.

Suppose then that you are having family and friends over to your house for Thanksgiving and on the desert table are several options: pumpkin pie, pecan pie, and triple chocolate pound cake. You know your niece so well that you absolutely KNOW which dessert she will choose. There simply is no doubt in your mind, but that knowledge in no way compels her to select the delicious chocolaty pound cake. Likewise, you, as the host, have the power to prevent any chocolate from being served in your house, or to simply prevent her from having any of the chocolate pound cake. True, the later would likely cause family drama worthy of a national “reality” program, but it is nonetheless within your power to do so. Refraining from exercising your power to prevent her selection of the chocolate dessert also does not compel her to make that same selection. She remains free to choose.

While your knowledge of your niece is limited to such things as her love for chocolate, God’s knowledge of you is without limit. “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you….” (Jer 1:5) God’s knowledge of how our personal nature will form our choices does nothing to deprive us of our free will. Likewise, God’s choice to refrain from using his omnipotence to compel our choices does not mean he lacks the power to do so, nor does it imply that whatever we choose conforms to his will.

Remember, while in this life our intellect is necessarily limited and incapable of fully understanding the infinite complexity of God’s plan. It is with faith that we trust in God and hope that someday we might be granted the capacity to comprehend the fullness of his creation.

 

[Randy_Carson]

If there is a God, and God is all knowing, he knew that I was going to stop believing in him.

All true.

There is a God. He is all knowing. He knew that you were going to stop believing in Him.

Perhaps you still believe in God, but you’re just really, really angry with Him right now?

He knew that I was going to grow up, struggle for decades with my faith, and lose it. He also knew exactly what would have convinced me to keep believing.

All true.

He knew that you were going to grow up.
He knew that you were going to struggle for decades with your faith and lose it.
He knew exactly what would have convinced you to keep believing.

Perhaps He gave you exactly that which you needed, but you haven’t responded to it well?

He knew the problem, he knew the solution, and he knew my breaking point, but all he did (if he exists) was sit back and watch.

Not all true.

God does not simply “sit back and watch”. He’s already provided your Savior, and He’s blessed you with the knowledge of who that Savior is. Not everyone knows what you already know.

Ignoring the notion that he plans to burn me in hell for all eternity for losing my faith, he knew how painful that whole process was.

Not all true.

God does not plan to burn you in hell for all eternity. He does not plan this for anyone - though some may choose hell for themselves. Your own fate is known to none but Him…certainly not to you.

However, God does understand how painful the process we all go through is.

Yes, I know, you are all ready to type “free will” into a message, but it doesn’t wash. Either he violates other people’s free will to their benefit, or what people think are miracles don’t exist.

Not true.

Miracles are simply signs, but people are free to accept them or not. We are not coerced by them. The fact that something beyond our natural understanding occurs does not violate our ability to believe or not believe what we see and hear.

In case you are thinking, “Nothing would convince you.” There is a code phrase that I have decided on that I will embrace the faith of whoever uses it. So, if you feel moved to tell me some strange nonsequiter, please don’t hold back.

Um…okay.

The hiddeness of God is one of the great and painful mysteries of life. God doesn’t force himself upon us. In fact, if he did, we would come to resent His constant presence – in our offices, in our bedrooms, in every aspect of our lives. Thus, he has given evidence of Himself which is sufficiently clear for those with an open heart and mind, but sufficiently vague so as to not compel those who are not open to Him. The French mathematician, Blaise Pascal, put it this way:

Willing to appear openly to those who seek him with all their heart, and to be hidden from those who flee from him with all their heart, God so regulates the knowledge of himself that he has given indications of himself which are visible to those who seek him and not to those who do not seek him. There is enough light for those to see who only desire to see, and enough obscurity for those who have a contrary disposition.

More prayer…not less…is the way out of your darkness.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

You know, I’m getting old and I’m sleep-deprived a lot of the time, but somehow, I remember…
vaguely…
that there was a few good lines somewhere in the Bible.
Something about not putting the Lord thy God to the test.
It sounded nice and poetic.
I think they could be relevant to this situation…
For the Greeks seek wisdom and the Jews asks for signs…
An evil and adulterous generation asks for a sign, but no sign shall be given it…
Something to do with Jonah…

…it’ll probably come back to me sometime.

Praying for you, CuriousCat. Perhaps, since cats have nine lives, Our Lord is also giving you a large number of chances to turn around. Only, we have to play by His rules, not ours. Hard as it may seem. I think the Bible also had an entire book about that…

…something about a job? Help me here, people!

Exodus? Numbers?

 

[Randy_Carson]

People seem weirdly caught up on that.

There is a phrase that only I know. To figure out this phrase you would either need to be ridiculously lucky, or able to access my mind without me knowing about it.

An extremely talented conartist might get it out of me without my knowing, but it is pretty unlikely. If God wants me to know something, he merely has to get the messenger to use the code.

Ah…you’re testing God, are you?

If I understand you correctly, you have a come up with a code phrase that only you and God know. If someone actually uses that phrase in a post, then you will acknowledge that God exists. If no one uses it, then your default position is that God does not exist.

Is that correct?

Here is a brief article on two kinds of “testing”, and I hope you will take a moment to read it:

"What does it mean to test God?"
gotquestions.org/test-God.html

 

[MatthewTrainor]

If there is a God, and God is all knowing, he knew that I was going to stop believing in him. He knew that I was going to grow up, struggle for decades with my faith, and lose it. He also knew exactly what would have convinced me to keep believing.

He knew the problem, he knew the solution, and he knew my breaking point, but all he did (if he exists) was sit back and watch.

How do you know that he didn’t do anything other than sit back and watch? What evidence do you have that that is the case? I presume that you have endured a traumatic event and/or circumstances that are at the root of your loss of faith, but isn’t it possible that in your distress that you may have overlooked something? Keep in mind also that God often places largest burdens upon those who are the strongest. Even his own Son was called upon to suffer during his earthly existence to the point where at Gethsemane he begged the Father to “let this cup pass from me; yet, not as I will, but as you will." (Mt 26:39, see also Mk 14:36, Lk 22:42).

Heroic suffering can cause even the strongest among us to waiver, but God never places more than you can handle because “God is faithful and will not let you be tried beyond your strength; but with the trial he will also provide a way out, so that you may be able to bear it.” (1 Cor 10:13)

Ignoring the notion that he plans to burn me in hell for all eternity for losing my faith, he knew how painful that whole process was.

As so lovingly stated by [user]smichhertz[/user] there is no guarantee that you will suffer any punishment due to a lack of faith in God.

I find it very notable that, while the Church has a formal process for recognizing when there is sufficient evidence to demonstrate when a departed soul has definitively achieved heaven (canonization), there is no analogous process for recognizing when someone has definitively gone to hell. Not for Hitler, nor Stalin nor anyone else you could name. To my knowledge, the Church hasn’t even affirmatively claimed that Judas went to hell upon his death despite the scriptural implication that “It would be better for that man if he had never been born.” (Mt 24:26, Mk 14:21). God is all merciful and will always welcome his children home.

Yes, I know, you are all ready to type “free will” into a message, but it doesn’t wash. Either he violates other people’s free will to their benefit, or what people think are miracles don’t exist.

I don’t see that miracles necessarily override free will. Yes, it would have been irrational for Thomas to reject the resurrection of Jesus when confronted with the direct evidence, but that did not compel him to also recognize Jesus’ divinity, for Lazarus too had been raised from the dead. Even so, Jesus himself recognizes that belief in the absence of such evidence is much harder for us when he said, “Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.” (Jn 20:29)

In case you are thinking, “Nothing would convince you.” There is a code phrase that I have decided on that I will embrace the faith of whoever uses it. So, if you feel moved to tell me some strange nonsequiter, please don’t hold back.

While it is true, if God wanted to take up your “what am I thinking now” challenge he could, but God doesn’t always do requests.
Mk 8:11-12:

The Pharisees came forward and began to argue with him, seeking from him a sign from heaven to test him. He sighed from the depth of his spirit and said, “Why does this generation seek a sign? Amen, I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation.”

It is also very dangerous to condition your belief in God upon stuff like magic tricks. It is just the sort of thing that the adversary might exploit to fill you with lies to further drive you away from God. My suggestion is to ask God for the insight to recognize the strength he has already given you to endure the trials he has set before you. Pray also that you always seek to know his will so that you can conform yourself to it as much as humanly possible. Stand firm and know that I am praying for you.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

If I die and I find out that God doesn’t exist, I lose nothing. If you die and find out He does, well you’re gonna lose a whole lot and you’ll have to answer when he asks, “Why did you test me?”

 

[Cheiron]

If I die and I find out that God doesn’t exist, I lose nothing. If you die and find out He does, well you’re gonna lose a whole lot and you’ll have to answer when he asks, “Why did you test me?”

I think a lot of atheists will ask God the same question…

 

[ichabode]

carrot juice

 

[joseie]

…

**
The hiddeness of God is one of the great and painful mysteries of life. God doesn’t force himself upon us. In fact, if he did, we would come to resent His constant presence – in our offices, in our bedrooms, in every aspect of our lives. Thus, he has given evidence of Himself which is sufficiently clear for those with an open heart and mind, but sufficiently vague so as to not compel those who are not open to Him. The French mathematician, Blaise Pascal, put it this way:

Willing to appear openly to those who seek him with all their heart, and to be hidden from those who flee from him with all their heart, God so regulates the knowledge of himself that he has given indications of himself which are visible to those who seek him and not to those who do not seek him. There is enough light for those to see who only desire to see, and enough obscurity for those who have a contrary disposition.**

More prayer…not less…is the way out of your darkness.

Wonderful ! So true! Thanks.