If God is not The Trinity, when what did He mean...

[2ndGen]

Angels created destruction in Sodom, for one. Maybe think of them as oxen pulling the plow God commands, as all servants of God can be compared to.

Creating destruction?

That’s an oxymoron if I ever heard one.

That’s like saying “salvation kills”.

Sorry, but that is not “creation”.

That is destruction and guess what…if you missed it,
I already stated that God used them to “destroy” already.

 

[2ndGen]

Sorry to butt in, but I have a few questions? This argument over God’s royal use of 'We" strikes me as culturally strange, I believe that in the early period of the bible, that is up through the prophets and judges that God tried to dissuage his chosen people from taking on the trappings of kingship. Wasn’t that the reason for the Judges and Prophets so that they would avoid this trap? Wasn’t it only after the Jews begged God to be like the other great kingdoms that God relented and let them have their way? Didn’t he warn them of the consequences that the road to royalty which began to seep into the lexicon and traditions of the Jews after this period? So why would God even want to talk in royal speak if he wanted to set an example for his people? I get the impression that God was very democratic in his dealings with the Jews. It would be more logical that he was speaking in the plural form because he was speaking to an equal partner over a primary matter to at least one other “person” only.

By all means! Please do butt in!

Besides, I already used that against the poster to prove The Trinity in that Jesus is The King of Kings so if God saying we signifies royalty in anyway, He just tied Himself to Jesus Christ directly (according to the “we” equals royalty belief).

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Creating destruction?

That’s an oxymoron if I ever heard one.

That’s like saying “salvation kills”.

Sorry, but that is not “creation”.

That is destruction and guess what…if you missed it,
I already stated that God used them to “destroy” already.

I never said angels created elements of the universe themselves. If they used existing elements to create new things, that doesn’t make them creators of the universe and Gods.

So if angels helped create Adam, they would only be creating him from existing elements in dirt God already created. Which again, doesn’t make them Gods.

 

[2ndGen]

I never said angels created elements of the universe themselves. If they used existing elements to create new things, that doesn’t make them creators of the universe and Gods.

So if angels helped create Adam, they would only be creating him from existing elements in dirt God already created. Which again, doesn’t make them Gods.

“if”, “if”, “if”…that doesnt’ sound like you’re defending something you believe, but suggesting possibilities without certainty.

Now, for the 3rd time, do you have any scriptures that state that angels created anything other than your “if’s”?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

“if”, “if”, “if”…that doesnt’ sound like you’re defending something you believe, but suggesting possibilities without certainty.

Now, for the 3rd time, do you have any scriptures that state that angels created anything other than your “if’s”?

I believe it.

Here an angel creates fire from out of a rock.

Judges 6:20 And the angel of God said unto him, Take the flesh and the unleavened cakes, and lay them upon this rock, and pour out the broth. And he did so.

Judges 6:21 Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight.

 

[2ndGen]

I believe it.

Here an angel creates fire from out of a rock.

Judges 6:20 And the angel of God said unto him, Take the flesh and the unleavened cakes, and lay them upon this rock, and pour out the broth. And he did so.

Judges 6:21 Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight.

LOL!

Boys scouts do that today!

And!

Fire existed “before” that particular angel ignited a flint with a piece of wood.

He did’nt “create” fire.

He “pro-created” fire.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

LOL!

Boys scouts do that today!

And!

Fire existed “before” that particular angel ignited a flint with a piece of wood.

He did’nt “create” fire.

He “pro-created” fire.

You just seem to be confused about the difference between creating the basic elements of dust, as opposed to creating Adam from dust.

I’m not saying angels created the basic elements of the universe, God did that. I’m saying angels were there when Adam was created from existing dust.

Which with God’s power would be no harder to do than a child creating a mud pie from dust.

 

[2ndGen]

You just seem to be confused about the difference between creating the basic elements of dust, as opposed to creating Adam from dust.

I’m not saying angels created the basic elements of the universe, God did that. I’m saying angels were there when Adam was created from existing dust.

Which with God’s power would be no harder to do than a child creating a mud pie from dust.

Then according to you,
Boyscouts who could create fire with flints and wood do this by God’s power and “not” by scientific principles?

And…you saying that Angels were there is different than saying that angels were used to create man. I don’t remember anybody arguing whether angels were there or not.

 

[Valke2]

Again, being that there is no proof or suggestion of anything else, being that the rest of Scripture supports the Doctrine and being that The Church that actually created The Bible reveals this, there is no alternative explanation as to Whom God was referring to when He said “Us”.

I don’t recall the Church creating Torah, where this statement appears. You might find a few dozen or hundred christian and jewish scholars who would disagree with what is meant by the use of the plural in this verse.

If one tries to state that there’s no evidence of The Trinity from just one book, then that’s like trying to use a Dictionary without the B-C sections. As the Dictionary defines words, The Bible defines it’s representative religion(s).

I’m saying you may be able to find scriptual support for the concept of trinity elsewhere, I don’t know. But, IMO, you’d be wrong to look for it in the creation story.

 

[itinerant1]

When God said
“Let Us make man in Our own image.” in Genesis,
Who are the “Us” He ws referring to?

That God is a Trinity is a revelation He made about His nature during New Testament times. Old Testament Judaism knew nothing of God as a Trinity because it had not been revealed to them.

There are non-Trinitarian explanations that may account for the use of the plural form in Genesis 1:26:

“Us” could be a reference to a discussion between God and the angels. Apparently, the angels had been created before man, and some of them had already fallen. We see a reference to their existence in Genesis 3:5 and 3:22. In Psalm 8:5 it says, “You have made him a little less than a god”. Here the psalmist uses “god” as a reference to those mysterious beings that make up the court of Yahweh. Yahweh’s heavenly court is mentioned in other psalms as well, such as Psalm 29:1+. Verse 9c (verse number depends on your translation) says, "In his palace everything cries, ‘Glory!’

A second possible explanation takes into account that the common Hebrew word for divine being, *Elohim, is plural. *Elohim in Semitic languages is a noun plural in form and often plural in sense. The plural sense has been used by pantheistic cultures in the ancient Semitic world. The Hebrews used this same word, which is plural in form, as singular in sense to refer to a single being. One might say that this is a somewhat ackward use of a plural noun.

In any case, the plural “Us” reflects the common usage of the name for the God of Israel, Elohim, as being plural in form.

In addition, many commentators are of the opinion that the plural form suggests God’s majesty and fullness.

Since the plural form is used in Genesis 1:26, this enabled a number of early Christian writers to find this as one of the hints of the Trinity in the Old Testament. An opportunity like this was not to be passed over by the great St. Augustine.

In the New Testament, there are a number of references to God as a Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Over time, many Catholic theologians developed fuller explanations of the Trinity. There is the work of Boethius, and St. Augustine’s *De Trinitate, *and so on. And let us not forget the illustration of the Trinity with the Shamrock and its three leaflets.:shamrock2:

intinerant1 :tiphat:

 

[2ndGen]

I don’t recall the Church creating Torah, where this statement appears. You might find a few dozen or hundred christian and jewish scholars who would disagree with what is meant by the use of the plural in this verse.

 

[2ndGen]

Here’s an anti-Catholic site that does a good job with Old Testament references to The Trinity:

(Hey, even a broken clock is right twice a day or a second)

bible.ca/trinity/trinity-texts-genesis1-26.htm

Plural pronouns used of God proving the trinity:

Click here for detailed study of plural references to God

A. Three plural pronouns, (We, Us, Our) used 6 different times in four different passages. Remember the word God (elohim) is also plural every time it is used in the Old Testament. Gen 11:7 also includes a plural verb (confuse) which even further, through grammar reinforces the plural “elohim” and the plural pronoun US.

“Our” Gen 1:26
“Us” Gen 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8
“We” Isa 6:8
B. These are the four passages where God speaks for Himself and uses plural pronouns:

"Then God [plural elohim] said, “Let Us [plural pronoun] make man in Our [plural pronoun] image, according to Our [plural pronoun] likeness” Genesis 1:26
"Then Yahweh God [plural elohim] said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us [plural pronoun], knowing good and evil” Genesis 3:22
“Come, let Us [plural pronoun] go down and there confuse [plural form of balal] their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.” Genesis 11:7
“Then I heard the voice of the Lord [plural elohim], saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us [plural pronoun]?”” Isaiah 6:8
II. Christ is the identical image of God, angels are not

A. Jesus Christ is our co-creator who is the exact image of God.

"see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. " 2 Corinthians 4:4
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. " Colossians 1:15
"And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, " Hebrews 1:3
B. There is no reason to suggest the plural pronoun is the “plural of Majesty”, since both Jesus and the Father are described as having the same image.

Click here for a full discussion of “plural of Majesty”

III. Angels are not included in “we” and “us”:

A. Anti-Trinitarians claim that when God said, “Let US make man in OUR image”. (Gen 1:26) he was speaking to angels.

Angels are not created in the image of God, only man.
If angels are included in “Let US make”, then angels AND God are equally our creator.
Jehovah’s Witnesses actually get this one right: The US includes (at least) the Father and Jesus in this creation. Jesus, being God, is the creator of all things: "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. " John 1:3

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Then according to you,
Boyscouts who could create fire with flints and wood do this by God’s power and “not” by scientific principles?

And…you saying that Angels were there is different than saying that angels were used to create man. I don’t remember anybody arguing whether angels were there or not.

The angel “touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock.” The angel didn’t grind on the rock to create sparks. Like I implied you are only seeing half the story on these things.

 

[2ndGen]

Genesis supports Genesis on The Trinity:

Genesis 1:
26
Then God said,
“Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky
and over the cattle and over all the earth,
and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

27
God created man in His own image,
in the image of God He created him;
male and female He created them.

Here, the scriptures tells us that God refers to Himself plurally, but the text refers to Him singularly. It literally states that God (singular) created man with no mention of any other being (angels, etc…) contributing to man’s creation.

So, if we are to believe that God was referring to angels when He said Us, then the rest of the text would be false in referring to God as the only individual to create man when it said “God” and not “God and angels” or “they” created man.

Where else is the plural form of God mentioned?

Genesis 3:22
Then the LORD God said,
“Behold, the man has become like one of Us,
knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”

Has an angel ever been known to take of the tree of live?

Even the archangel Lucifer didn’t touch the tree.

Genesis 11:7
“Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language,
so that they will not understand one another’s speech.”

Now, when did angels have power to confuse man’s language?

Only God is known to do this.

Another mention of any God having anything to do with men’s languages is The Holy Spirit (coincidentally, a person of The Trinity) in The Upper Room in the Book of Acts.

And…

Exodus 4:11
The LORD said to him, "Who has made man’s mouth?
Or who makes him mute or deaf, or seeing or blind?
Is it not I, the LORD?

Even when Gabriel spoke to Zachariah and he was silenced, Gabriel stated that he stood “in The Lord’s presence”.

This places him “outside” of God in that he was in front of God, therefore couldn’t be included as “part of” God and God Himself was there with Zachriah. It was God who silenced Zachariah.

Where was there an angel mentioned when Zachariah was unsilenced? No where.

 

[2ndGen]

The angel “touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock.” The angel didn’t grind on the rock to create sparks. Like I implied you are only seeing half the story on these things.

What did he “create”?

Fire always existed.

God created fire.

The angel pro-created it.

Burning cakes?

That’s your evidence for God and angels creating man?

How many times did angels correct men for worshipping them?

Had they been one with God, then they would’ve “been” God and thus men could worship them and the angels woudn’t have had to have corrected men for worshipping them.

Moses used a staff to work miracles.

Is he God too?

Did he too create?

Did the angel create the fire?

Or did the staff do it as Moses’ staff worked miracles?

If you had shown an angel phsyically touching the cake with their hands, that would be diffferent.

According to your depiction, it was the staff that “created” (I say pro-created) the cake fire.

Right?

So then, is the staff God?

 

[2ndGen]

The angel “touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock.” The angel didn’t grind on the rock to create sparks. Like I implied you are only seeing half the story on these things.

Wait a minute, the scripture states that he put forth the staff and touched the cake with the wood, not that he himself touched it.

That’s a misrepresentation of the scritpure.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Wait a minute, the scripture states that he put forth the staff and touched the cake with the wood, not that he himself touched it.

That’s a misrepresentation of the scritpure.

I was refreshing your memory that the angel didn’t simply touch rod to rock to create sparks like a boy scout would. I already posted the whole verse earlier.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

What did he “create”?

Fire always existed.

So did the dirt already exist that Adam was made from. Not always as you say, but before that point.

So all this will inevitably come down to you said, I said – you say it was God and Jesus, I say God and the angels. That’s it.

 

[Valke2]

2nd Gen.

The fact that the verse immedietly following the plural refers to God in the singular, has actually been used as an argument against Trinity being found here. God may have said “us” to the angles, much as a King will include others in his decision out of politeness, but the action was all God without any third party involvement.

If there was a trinity hint here, why would it not remain in the very next verse?

Anyway, as I posted earlier, my preferred explanation does not lie in a Royal “we” or God speaking to angels. BUt rather that this language mimicked the pagan language of a divine council, putting to rest that there are other gods by making it clear that God is responsible for our creation, not other GOds. This is reinforced by the next verse which you quoted.

 

[2ndGen]

So did the dirt already exist that Adam was made from. Not always as you say, but before that point.

So all this will inevitably come down to you said, I said – you say it was God and Jesus, I say God and the angels. That’s it.

Not what “I say”, but what the Scriptures that I posted said.