If God is omnipotent, wouldn't he be able to create an environment in which everyone retains free will, but still goes to heaven?

  • Thread starter Thread starter calvinh
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I am not circling back to my original argument. This argument is saying that, if people are affected by their environments in their either deciding to join the faith or leave it, then everyone doesn’t have the same likelihood of choosing to go to heaven. If someone is by chance born to a very loving religious family, they might be more likely to choose to go to heaven than if they were born to a stressed, atheist, single mom whose husband left as soon as he found out she was pregnant. The situation changes one’s likelihood of choosing to go to heaven.
 
Everyone does have freewill, and everyone has the opportunity to go to heaven…if we choose to go, or not, is not a matter of the environment provided, but what direction we chose to take.
 
God judges with perfect justice. Don’t you think that perfect justice involved taking the environmental factors into account?

And I think too that God judges our hearts. Christ saw into the heart of the rich young man before He told him to go and sell all his possessions…

God also judges with perfect mercy.
 
Fair enough. In that case, though, it could be that someone who does terrible things could still go to heaven if they do those terrible things only because of the influence of the environment around them.
 
Because God is love. And love conditions everything else we can say about God. That includes power and knowledge.

If we want to know God’s nature, we must start with love.

And the answer to all these questions about suffering is: love only exists in freedom.
Love only exists in freedom. Freedom is an integral part of love. Love presupposes two parties that are free to love. Don’t know how else to say it.

God doesn’t violate free will. It’s not in his nature to do something that’s not in his nature.
 
calvinh said:
If someone is by chance born to a very loving religious family, they might be more likely to choose to go to heaven than if they were born to a stressed, atheist, single mom whose husband left as soon as he found out she was pregnant. The situation changes one’s likelihood of choosing to go to heaven.
Click to expand...
It is not about choosing to go to heaven or hell, but rather, about choosing to respond to God’s grace. Grace is freely given to everybody, and God’s Laws are written in everyone’s heart. God is Truth, Beauty, and Love itself; thus God calls and draws us to Himself.

But Christ Himself said “to those to whom much was given, much will be required.” Thus if someone was born into the wealth of the True Faith, and given the treasures of the 7 Sacraments, and the fortune of a good family, then one really has no excuse. Salvation is a free gift for those who want it. The gift of salvation can be lost, squandered, or altogether rejected. Sin is the rejection of God and salvation. If we choose to steal, to lie, to worship false gods, to destroy, to hate, and commit all sorts of abominations, we go against God and neighbor, and condemn ourselves.

The 10 Commandments are like guard rails and road sign to help us stay on the road that leads us home; they prevent us from going the wrong direction, from taking the wrong road.

Thus God does not send anyone to hell; hell is a consequence, like blindness is the consequence of plucking your own eyes out. Mortal sin is a free choice. We will be judged on our deeds toward God and neighbor. Thus God call us to repent, to love, and to forgive. Those who do not do these things are on the road to perdition. It is the task of the Church to instruct, to invite, to admonish, to inspire, to urge, to seek out and intercede for those that are on the road to hell. Jesus said: “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” Lk 5:31

Catholics have a militant function in the world and are responsible for the salvation of others. Thus we were given all the tools and weapons for the battle. We are called to intercede through prayer, sacrifice and deeds, for those who are lost in the world and in most need of God’s mercy.

The seven sacraments are fountains of sanctifying grace given to us in overflowing measures for our sanctification, for the sake of others— that we may be the light of truth and goodness of Christ in a dark world. Those who have all these gifts and will be held to a higher standard, especially those who teach about it. As Scripture puts it, “Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.” James 3:1

Heaven is not a theme park; heaven is the Beatific Vision of God. God is Infinite, thus every soul in heaven will have a different degree of this vision, depending on how the capacity of the soul and how it responded to God’s grace on earth. But all in heaven will be satisfied.
Here is an illustrated video that will help you grasp these realities a little better:

 
Then scratch that, and make it “If someone is by chance born to a very loving religious family, they might be more likely to choose to accept God’s grace than if they were born to a stressed, atheist, single mom whose husband left as soon as he found out she was pregnant.” The idea is still there. People’s decisions are at least partially influenced by their environments.
 
Influenced, but not determined. We’re not robots.

My question is, what leads you to ask all of this? Clearly this is a pretty important question to you.
 
@calvinh Your OP and related questions are actually important theological questions that have been answered in various ways by people in the Catholic Church. The issue is squaring free will with predestination, grace with nature, free will with God’s omniscience, and so on. So these are rather complicated topics, and they actually may be more complex than what some people are suggesting on here. For your specific question is actually rooted in some of these more basic (but very complex) topics.

What you are asking is, why didn’t God set up a world (out of all the possible worlds) where everyone who exists ultimately ends up choosing God?

Unlike some replies so far, I think God could have done this. If this is a possible world — where everyone who lives ends up choosing God — then God could have certainly set this up.

There are a few other points I’d want to bring in. God is not required to make the best possible world. Imagine a world in which each tree meant a better world. So +1 tree gives the world a “+1 goodness point.” Well, I suppose then there could be an infinite number of possible worlds, with each one getting progressively better, because each one could have one more tree than the prior one! So if God is ever going to create at all, He must settle on one outcome, even if there is always another better possible world.

Second, what we do know is that the world God did create only involves evil if that evil will bring about a greater good.

Third, anyone who goes to hell freely does so. If we think it is a scandal that God creates a world where people choose hell, then perhaps we misunderstand what hell is, in the first place. It is NOT arbitrary punishment. It is the very effect of turning away from God, in the first place.

Fourth, maybe just maybe (and this kinda goes against my first point), this world is the “best possible world” in some sense. Maybe this is just the kind of world that needed to exist for the right combination of good result that God wanted us to have – including the number of people who go to Heaven.
 
Last edited:
It would depend on his own personal culpability.

We do not know all the details of how God judges us. We need to have faith that He will do so with complete justice and complete mercy, and that is what we need to know, since that is what He told us.

One thing we do know that He takes into account is how we forgive others. “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.”

Makes you think, doesn’t it?
 
Last edited:
Well nobody starts taking drugs thinking that they want to ruin their physical and mental health and relationships and waste time and money etc… they are after the pleasure drugs provide and these other things are side effects. The pleasure is overwhelming and addictive and so the drug user pursues it in spite of the negatives.

Same with any sin - sin is often pleasurable and always has some sort of upside or benefit for the sinner. It also has the attached consequence if unrepented of hell. Which is nothing more or less than eternal separation from God. It is the sin that people choose, and the separation which unfortunately follows.
 
Unfortunately your example does not work. There is an absolute maximum goodness, namely everyone getting into heaven - regardless of the number of actual people. This is not a “numbers game”. And that is easy to achieve. Create everyone directly into heaven.
Click to expand...
This still suggests that something is wrong, objectively, with someone going to hell. As if it impedes on God’s perfection.

To do so misunderstands the nature of hell, or even God. Which is why we move on to the following…
Show me the scenario, where someone actively bangs on the door of hell, and demands admittance declaring: “I want eternal torture inflicted on me!!”. The bare minimum would be a guided tour of heaven and hell, and then a choice presented: “which one do you want?”
Click to expand...
Maybe no one goes to hell. The point of Christ and the Church’s teachings is that it’s possible to ultimately and finally develop your will against God. My favorite image of hell, given by the most self-giving person in history, Jesus Christ, was the one of the tree bearing fruit. If you do not bear fruit and wither, it is a natural result that you are taken off the tree and thrown “into the fire.” By choosing against God, who is being and goodness itself, we become less human. Hell is not alternative to Heaven, as Red is to Green. It is more like the comparison of an empty glass of water to a full glass of water. Humans are meant for the latter.

No one is tricked into hell. This is obvious from the Catholic teaching on mortal sin, which can only be committed with freedom and knowledge. No one goes to hell unless they freely do so.

If you think that’s absurd, fine. The point remains that no one is forced or tricked to go to hell. And it may be the case that most people end up needing to be purified of their wills in what Roman Catholics calls Purgatory.
 
Last edited:
BadgerHoney said:
“Maybe” is not an argument. And if the number of people who get into heaven is LESS than the number of people overall, then this is NOT the best possible world.
Click to expand...
God by definition is not required to make a best possible world. What would that be and by whose definition, anyway?
 
BadgerHoney said:
And that is easy to achieve. Create everyone directly into heaven.
Click to expand...
I don’t remember Jesus saying:
""Yea I say unto thee, lock thy loved ones into the basement room, that thy loved on may never go outside and be hurt. “”
Who does that? It is tragic that such distorted visions of love are held.
 
calvinh said:
Then scratch that, and make it “If someone is by chance born to a very loving religious family, they might be more likely to choose to accept God’s grace than if they were born to a stressed, atheist, single mom whose husband left as soon as he found out she was pregnant.” The idea is still there. People’s decisions are at least partially influenced by their environments.
Click to expand...
Yes, obviously, thus the need to spread the gospel. Suffering and evil is the result of sin. Thus Jesus set the example and reached out to people who were lost in the world. that’s the task of the Church. As for atheism, that is usually someone who is closed to God’s grace.
 
My computer is at 2% so I barely got to read your reply and can’t answer in detail right now.

But just remember that according to Catholicism, which I at least accept is the most biblical faith, that God desires all people to be saved. That is, the Bible is at least that clear as well. It’s not just a Catholic rationalization.

And (2) God provides sufficient grace/opportunity for every person to be saved. And (3) grace is not contrary to nature but perfects it, so that even in differing circumstances (environment, genetics, psychology, society, culture, etc.), God can still invite any individual into relationship with. No one goes to hell merely because he has this or that gene, or because this lady is born in that country, or whatever. Grace comes to all.

Hell is only for those who freely do so. Does anyone in fact do this? I’m not sure.
 
Last edited:
‘Why can’t God make it so that, despite our free wills, we are still able to live our lives in such a way that everyone voluntarily accepts God’s grace?’

This is a fundamental question. God is all-powerful, thus he could, if he wanted to, save all.

I read ‘You want God to make it so that we all go to heaven–which we must freely choose to do ‘. We do not freely choose to go to heaven. We need grace to do anything meritorious, and this is a gift from God.

‘We determine if we are saved or not’ his is not correct. We do not save ourselves.

‘Love only exists in freedom.’ Dos this imply there is no love in heaven, as souls there do not have the freedom to sin?
 
RealisticCatholic said:
This still suggests that something is wrong, objectively, with someone going to hell. As if it impedes on God’s perfection.
Click to expand...
As Hell is regarded as eternal suffering, assuming that everyone can agree that eternal suffering is bad, having a person go to Hell is objectively bad. I could understand it if the church taught that Hell was just a place where you can do earthly things, and all the negative aspects just come as a result of the lack of God’s presence, and not from torture. This Heaven and Hell situation could be further improved if the people in Hell could also choose to go back to God after they chose to go to Hell. Why wouldn’t the perfect God do it this way?

The only solution that doesn’t sacrifice God’s perfection would be that we as humans have the wrong idea of what perfection is, and maybe the wrong idea of what love is, too.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top