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Dakota_Roberts
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that violates conservation of energy, either energy or mass would have to disappear
If God is so merciful, why does he let Satan exist to do evil things to us?
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LifeIsAbsurd
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Ahh, agreed. We’re stating different, non-contradictory things–you, that his issue as stated violates physical laws–me, that we can restate his argument to avoid violating the laws of physics but then he runs into other issues.
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tonyrey
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tonyrey
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Spock
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No, it is not the same principle. You are talking about humans, while the thread is about Satan.
If everything else fails, certainly. But not for everybody (contrary to what you say) and not for all instances (also contrary to what you say). Are you unable to concentrate on the actual topic?
You are really “thick”. When you say that you favor free will, you are also favoring the evil. If you cannot understand that, that is your problem.
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Spock
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As usual, you are wrong. We might be aware of God’s existence, but that would compel no one to worship or love him. If God would accept my open invitation for a friendly chat, and if God would not able to convince me (by using rational arguments) that all the gratuitous evils are really necessary for some “greater good”, then you can bet your last penny, that I would not worship him.
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Nita
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Do you have a child? Suppose you know he is taking drugs. He is causing serious harm to himself by taking these drugs. Are you going to lock him up in his room until he promises not to? Locking him up again each time he fails to keep his promise?You find out he intends to start selling drugs. What do you do? Police can’t arrest him before the crime is committed. …
Re God just not creating people who He knows will commit serious crimes:
There are lots of acts that I consider seriously evil - sometimes involving others, sometimes involving only oneself. (Eg. suicide and murder are serious evils.) Some serious evils harm or kill life in the body and in the soul. Other serious evils harm or kill life in the soul but leave the body untouched. It is death in the soul which is most serious, because if there is not repentance it becomes an eternal state of existence, (Whereas the dead body does not remain in the grave; it will be raised again and united to it’s soul – either to a soul filled with “life”, or a soul filled with “death”.)
God of course has knowledge/foreknowledge of all of these serious evils. I think there would be very few people on earth if He just “simply” didn’t create any who He knows at some time will commit a “serious evil”.
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Nita
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Spock
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Well, let’s play the hypothetic scenario, step by step. I do have a child, he is grown up. No, he does not take drugs, he sometimes drinks half a glass of beer, but mostly only fruit juices. Now, if he would take drugs, I would try to talk him out of it. Of course taking drugs only harms himself, so it is not a good example. Suppose I would know he contemplates selling drugs. I would warn him that I would give him up if he started to do that. I would hope such a warning would be enough. If it were not enough, then I would fulfill the threat.
I cannot answer this part, since we have no common ground. Soul and eternal life are none of my concerns.
My answer is simple: “so what?”. Why is having more people (who commit actual serious evils, especially if they do not repent), preferable to have a handful who lead a life which is pleasing to God?
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tonyrey
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Nita
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By “giving him up”, I presume you mean reporting him to the authorities. I would agree with that. But that is AFTER he has committed the evil act. Your statement in Post #14, which I was responding to, was that you would intervene in some way so that the evil act could never take place – with force if necessary. Perhaps you’ve forgotten what you said. Here it is::
Post #14
Yes. If I had positive knowledge that he wants to commit some seriously evil act, then **I would do whatever it takes **to stop him. Peacefully if possible, forcefully if necessary. If it were possible to change his mind, that would be great. It this method does not work, then physically prevent him/her from carrying out his intentions. If I had positive knowledge before he was born, then I would simply not create him.
I’m sure you are concerned with “soul” – according to the philosophical definition. Or are you a total materialist? (No such thing as free will; only material atoms that physically move in such a way that they totally determine your actions, emotions etc.)
Since you’ve brought God into the picture, my answer is also simple: it is because God desires to have more people. “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth.” (Gen 1:28)
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roselily
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:curtsey:And will you understand all God ways?
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JDaniel
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Cho:
Your Athiest friend does not believe in God: why should he now believe in Satan? Does he really believe Satan exists if God doesn’t? If he doesn’t, his is no argument. If he does, he needs help!
God bless,
jd
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Spock
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No, I did not forget it. Since I am a limited being I would have to resort to the ways and means available to me. And within those constraints I would do everything to prevent his actions.
I am afraid your picture about “materialsm” is way off the mark. I am not going to explain to you in detail, since that would derail the thread.
Well, the Bible is not much of a supporting argument. Or do you think that the quoted text should be interpreted as “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth until there is no standing room left.”? Do you think that God is that stupid and illogical? And that God does not care about the quality, only the quantity? Not the first time I have to point out that you apologists are so irrational and illogical that your arguments work against God instead of supporting him.
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Spock
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No, it would not (and now miracles are constantly occuring? Not just once in a blue moon?). Even if God would mainfest himeself in front of me, I would not “worship” him, if he could not prove (to my satisfaction) that the visible picture of the world is really wrong. That all the evils and injustices are somehow necessary to that alleged “greater good”. That without Satan the world would NOT be a better place.
If it turned out that you guys are actually right and that is the best God could do, then why should I “worship” such a bumbling, incompetent God?
No, I don’t have to do that. The world is constantly changing, and the trend of the change is for the better. There is a wise observation: “The good, old times are today”. The world is getting a better place, slowly, but surely.
If God wanted to help the process, then Jesus should have made one more strongly worded teaching instead of those supposed “miracles”. His teaching should have been: “Wash your hands, you idiots!”. That simple commandment would have decreased the pain and misery coming from diseases tremendously. All the deaths of women dying in childbirth fever could have been prevented by one simple decree. As it is, the world had to wait long centuries until medical science discovered that diseases are caused by microbes and not “demons”. And that lice are not the “pearls of God”.
You incessant nagging for a “detailed blueprint” is a dumb joke. One little “commandment” would have made an incredible difference.
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JDaniel
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Spock:
You may not find this a fully satisfactory answer to your question. But, at least it appears that you were not the first one to ask it. St. Thomas asked it as well and gave it lots of thought. After much thought, he recognized a couple of things: (1) that Satan and the demons, in all of the early literature and Scripture, looked to be inhabitants of lower realms, inclusive of earth. And, (2) from all of the earliest literature, sacred writings and Scripture, it appears that good Angels were created with unshakable goodness. None were ever called on the carpet, or rebuked, or scolded - anywhere in any of the literature. And, this is so even of Satan and his followers.
How Satan and his followers embody evil is still an unanswered question, as Satan even now possesses the Angelic qualities of perfection determinant of Angels. St. Thomas explains that an Angel is created in a state of Perfection, and that perfection cannot be altered so long as that Angel remains in his realm. But, God brought all of the Angels up into the higher realm, the Vision realm, with himself. There an Angel could choose to reject being there, as they were given free will. Some Angels, like Satan, chose to remain in the lower realm.
In the lower realm - the angelic realm, which extends from the bottom of the Vision realm down to include the Earth, the fallen Angels chose to remain. There, they could not duplicate God, for even they know that is impossible, instead they were so enamored with their own self-glory that the delight they enjoyed in themselves was enough to cause them to err in their thinking. Satan committed to this lower realm of existence. He and his followers were thus cast down to these lower realms, which includes the angelic realm and the earthly realm.
That is why the Earth is included in Satan’s territory. Once an Angel is created, that Angel remains in existence from then on. He has a beginning but no ending. He has been cast out of the realm called the Vision, but is permitted to exist in the lower realms. Notwithstanding all his power and strength, the human soul has been given more than enough strength and power to not only resist his enticements, but also, to vanquish him from our hearts. The people of Earth are here for the purpose of replacing Satan and the fallen Angels who were cast out of the realm of the Vision. Only the elect will be allowed into the realm of the Vision. (I am planning to be one of those elect - I hope.)
I spent much of the holidays researching this subject because I knew it was important to you. The best explanation may be found in The Teaching of the Catholic Church, Vol I, chap VIII, The Angels.
God bless,
jd
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Spock
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Dear JD, you misunderstood my question. I opened a new thread about the subject, because I think it is important. Its title is: “The Ultimate Question”.
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JDaniel
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A small, but important correction: above I said that Angels were created in a state of Perfection, I do not mean that in any way to be reminiscent of God’s Perfection, which is Infinite. And, neither did St. Thomas. Angels are regarded as finite beings. So, it’s only the perfection attainable to finite being-ness.
God bless,
jd
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tonyrey
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How do you know miracles are not constantly occurring? Do you monitor every event?
“to my satisfaction” is the key phrase. If Satan didn’t exist you would find another excuse. Hasn’t it occurred to you that your fault-finding exercise is itself negative and destructive? And that you yourself may be bumbling and incompetent in your judgment? What **do **you worship?
Exactly the same principle applies to all beings created with free will.
The very fact that you favour the psychological equivalent of leucotomy reveals your disregard for human rights.
If we are genuinely in favour of free will we have to accept evil as an inevitable consequence. The alternative is a castrated mind. If no one ever chose evil it would demonstrate that no one can do so.
It would also presuppose moral omniscience! All evil is a form of ignorance because it corrupts our personality. But it is culpable ignorance when we act against our conscience. If we deliberately harm others we ultimately do more harm to ourselves. Egoism is a form of self-destruction because it alienates others.
It is also ironic that you presuppose the reality of evil in an amoral universe. Human conventions and subjective opinions have no bearing on whether God is merciful. Only objective facts are significant in that respect.
(I delete your insults and irrelevant comments which merely reveal weaknesses in your argument and character).
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Nita
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According to science, man has been around for _____ millions of years already – and there is still plenty of standing room left. I recall hearing once that all the people on the earth could fit into Texas with about 1000 sq ft for each of them. Now I haven’t verified that. But, it’s not God’s fault if people choose to gather into small areas by the millions instead of spreading out a bit.
And, should it ever get to where there truly isn’t any standing room left, God will probably decide it’s time for His second coming and the end of the world.
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