If God is three Persons, why do we say Him and not They?

[laircy]

I’ve been pondering the Trinity, which is leaving me more confused than clarified, though I do realize we cannot fully understand this.

Also, another Trinity-related question: If Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, why is the Holy Spirit not considered the Father?

 

[MonikaBarbara]

Well, a priest once explained it like this to my Catholic group:

From eternity, The Father and the Son shared this boundless love, this giving of themselves to one another…
And the overflow of that love is the Holy Spirit.

I think that the easiest way, for me, to think about the Holy Trinity is in terms of water and its three forms: solid, liquid, and gas(water vapor/steam).

Its the same thing, even though it takes three different forms.
We have different names for it in its three different states: ice, liquid water, steam.
Just like we have three different names for the Trinity: Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

But is still the same thing: water. Just like the Holy Trinity is God. They are One. So we say “Him”, not “They”. Plus, using “Him” makes it really clear that we are monotheistic.

And, yes, don’t try to think about this Mystery too much. It will hurt your brain. We won’t ever be able to really understand it…I think that I read somewhere that even angels don’t fully comprehend it.

 

[Pilgrim_333]

“Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord” (Deut. 6:4).

In the Summa, Question 11: The unity of God, Saint Thomas Aquinas writes in Article 3 that it can be shown that God is one “First from His simplicity…Secondly, this is proved from the infinity of His perfection…Thirdly, this is shown from the unity of the world.” Furthermore in Article 4 he goes on to say: Bernard says (De Consid. v): "Among all things called one, the unity of the Divine Trinity holds the first place.
“I answer that, Since “one” is an undivided being, if anything is supremely “one” it must be supremely being, and supremely undivided. Now both of these belong to God. For He is supremely being, inasmuch as His being is not determined by any nature to which it is adjoined; since He is being itself, subsistent, absolutely undetermined. But He is supremely undivided inasmuch as He is divided neither actually nor potentially, by any mode of division; since He is altogether simple, as was shown above (Question 3, Article 7). Hence it is manifest that God is “one” in the supreme degree.”
So, if we say “They” and not “He” concerning God then we use a connotation of plurality to describe what is and must only be singular. The distinction of Persons within the Holy Trinity does not equate to a division of God…“three persons indeed, but one essence, substance or nature entirely simple” (Lateran Council IV: DS 800).
As for the Incarnation and the action of the Holy Spirit, we know that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father; we also know that the Son is eternally begotten of the Father. This eternal begotten-ness of the Son from the Father (who is not begotten) eternally precedes the conceiving of the Son in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit–for we know that this is a moment which took place in history, in time. Also the truth comes from Our Lord Himself, for He addresses the Father as “Father” and refers to the Holy Spirit only as “Spirit”, “Helper”, “Paraclete” etc. “And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever” (Jn. 14:16). The Father does not send or give the Father; likewise, the Father does not proceed from the Father.

 

[eamonnroma]

Of course we can also refer to God as ‘she’ - God is not male. As Pope John Paul I once said when he famously referred to God as Mother.

 

[Pilgrim_333]

Of course we can also refer to God as ‘she’ - God is not male. As Pope John Paul I once said when he famously referred to God as Mother.

Pope John Paul I was referring to the maternal-like tenderness and mercy of God, this is not a theological assertion that God is a “she” or “Mother”. Pope Benedict XVI writes, in “Jesus of Nazareth”:“God should not be referred to as a “mother” as Jesus always refers to him as “God the Father” in the Gospel, leaving out any reference to a female archetype, excluding the females from divine absoluteness which is an exclusively male privilege.”
There is no scriptural basis for referring to God as “Mother” in a sense that we can pray to God using “Our Mother” or refer to the Divine as “she”. There is also the fact of the Incarnation in which the Eternal Word, the Son of God, was made flesh–fully God and fully Man–our ikon of God is male. There is room for metaphor or simile saying: “as a hen gathers her brood” or “Can a woman forget her infant, so as not to have pity on the son of her womb? and if she should forget, yet will not I forget thee.”
I believe referring to God as “she” or “Mother” in a factual, theological sense is dangerous, as it seems to imply a Goddess. Both the Apostles’ and Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creeds affirm a belief in God “the Father”.

 

[Lynxdk]

I’ve been pondering the Trinity, which is leaving me more confused than clarified, though I do realize we cannot fully understand this.

Also, another Trinity-related question: If Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, why is the Holy Spirit not considered the Father?

I actually refer to them as They quite often. I like to notice, especially when I’m praying, the different perspectives of Yahweh. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

I agree with the idea that it can seem confusing to some folks, to think of something as being One (Singular) and Many (Plural) at the same time, but there’s a lot of good examples all around us that can help make it easier. Most Atoms are made up of electrons, neutrons and electrons. Three different things, that make a whole, that are very hard to separate under normal circumstances

As to the second question, I would say Yahweh, “Them”(The Singular Whole), are “Our Father”. I like to think of the Holy Spirit as “God’s Outreach Program”… and I don’t take that lightly, because I’ve been moved by the Spirit rather futher than I’ve wanted to go at times… but it’s all good =)

Another perspective I have on this is that God is present in the act of creating each and every new person. Our mothers and fathers and God, working together, to create each new and unique one of us. Another trinity, of sorts =)

God is all around us, and working in each of us, in His own ways.

Peace be with you,

Sean

 

[Lynxdk]

I believe referring to God as “she” or “Mother” in a factual, theological sense is dangerous, as it seems to imply a Goddess.

There’s a scriptural basis for God as Mother, actually. Quite a few of them, if you ask God, herself.

Genesis 1:27
And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.

“They” are Both Male and Female, Alpha and Omega, and many other opposing forces on the Universe.

I think this “God as Male Only” sort of thinking implied by “leaving out any reference to a female archetype, excluding the females from divine absoluteness which is an exclusively male privilege” is what’s dangerous.

Trying to impose Limits on Our Father is dangerous.

 

[glendab]

Simple answer: Because God revealed Himself to us as Jesus Christ and we are to refer to Him as a Him because He is 100% male. Using “They” would imply polytheism and could get confusing as to which Person of the Trinity you are referring to when speaking of God in conversation.

Glenda

P.S. For those who feel a need to be inclusive and allow the term “mother” to be used for God and call yourselves Catholic, shame on you. You do know better.

 

[Lynxdk]

P.S. For those who feel a need to be inclusive and allow the term “mother” to be used for God and call yourselves Catholic, shame on you. You do know better.

It’s part of my “job” to think about these things. Catholic means Universal, which makes it, by default, the One True Church, as far as I’m concerned. All Inclusive, like God.

Discussing these topics in a philosophy thread is an exercise in getting to know Yahweh Better, especially for people that have no direct path because of the obstacles in their way.

Jesus is One Part of the Trinity, and seeing it that way, as strictly male, is a mistake people have been making for 2000 years now (more really, but we don’t need to go back that far to talk about this). God is So much More than One Person, however important that person might be. God is big enough to be called a few names. I’m sure he’ll get around to correcting people about the ones he doesn’t like, in His own time

Sean

 

[JimG]

Some basics.
There is one God, not three.
God does not have parts, thus, the Persons of the Trinity are not ‘parts’ of God.
Each Person of the Trinity possesses the one divine nature whole and entire.

Only the second Person of the Trinity became man, and is called Jesus. As God, he is in full possession of the one divine nature, thus he is God. As man, he is in full possession of a human nature. Thus, he is a human being. But he is not a human Person, but a divine Person.

 

[Lynxdk]

 

[Lynxdk]

I just want to add, so it’s clear (I’m sure you know).

Modalism tries to define God as “one person at a time”, as if they exist separately from each other at different times and places. Separate “modes” as it were, rather than a Union.

God Transcends time, and everything else, for that matter.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Of course we can also refer to God as ‘she’ - God is not male. As Pope John Paul I once said when he famously referred to God as Mother.

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Are you saying the Holy Spirit is female?

 

[Lynxdk]

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Are you saying the Holy Spirit is female?

The words “Male” and “Female” imply a Physical Only sort of maleness or femaleness.

The idea is the important thing (when thinking in philosophical terms) Our Father Transcends Gender. Saying it this way, is a good way to see that, without fear of repercussions. God Wants us to think for ourselves, otherwise how can He tell if we’re choosing to Act accordingly? (Free Will)

But in the strictest terms, to combat the irony of the sort of thinking that God is a “Male Person”, I would say Yes.

Pax,

Sean

 

[balto]

The words “Male” and “Female” imply a Physical Only sort of maleness or femaleness.

Agreed.

The idea is the important thing (when thinking in philosophical terms) Our Father Transcends Gender.

Also agreed.

But in the strictest terms, to combat the irony of the sort of thinking that God is a “Male Person”, I would say Yes.

I disagree. The Holy Spirit is not female nor is He feminine. None of the three Persons are male, yes, but they are all masculine. In fact, there is nothing more masculine than God is. Compared to God, all humans (male and female) are spiritually feminine. Why? Masculinity involves the pouring out of one’s essence into the feminine. God is the source of all that exists, therefore He plays the masculine role in relation to all of creation. He pours out His being, His knowledge, His goodness, His life, His love, etc. into creation and humanity. The titles of “Father,” “Son,” and all masculine pronouns are intended and are appropriate. This in no way implies that men are greater than women because, as you rightly noted, God transcends human categories of gender and sex.

Here is a longer expose on the subject by Peter Kreeft: peterkreeft.com/topics-more/sexual-symbolism.htm

 

[Lynxdk]

I disagree. The Holy Spirit is not female nor is He feminine. None of the three Persons are male, yes, but they are all masculine. In fact, there is nothing more masculine than God is. Compared to God, all humans (male and female) are spiritually feminine. Why? Masculinity involves the pouring out of one’s essence into the feminine. God is the source of all that exists, therefore He plays the masculine role in relation to all of creation. He pours out His being, His knowledge, His goodness, His life, His love, etc. into creation and humanity. The titles of “Father,” “Son,” and all masculine pronouns are intended and are appropriate. This in no way implies that men are greater than women because, as you rightly noted, God transcends human categories of gender and sex.

Here is a longer expose on the subject by Peter Kreeft: peterkreeft.com/topics-more/sexual-symbolism.htm

I Agree, but in a simpler way:
C.S. Lewis: That Hideous Strength:
“The male you could have escaped, for it exists only on the biological level. But the masculine none of us can escape. What is above and beyond all things is so masculine that we are all feminine in relation to it. You had better agree with your adversary quickly.’”

I have met the Director, Personally. ~HER~ name is Yahweh.

Sean

 

[Jared2914]

We have one body with many parts. We are created in the image of God, so God is similar to us, though perfect in every way unlike us. God has one body with many parts, specifically God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The one difference is that each part of God can work independently, but all work perfectly for the will of the whole God. I believe the exact specifics will forever be a mystery on earth. Only when we see God face to face in Heaven will the mystery be revealed.

Our own body parts do have some independence though. For example, pulling your hand away from a burning hot pan usually doesn’t involve the brain. The local nerves decide what to do. The local nerves of course pass on the signal to the brain (and you feel it), but the reflex happens before that signal even reaches the brain.

 

[Lynxdk]

Our own body parts do have some independence though. For example, pulling your hand away from a burning hot pan usually doesn’t involve the brain. The local nerves decide what to do. The local nerves of course pass on the signal to the brain (and you feel it), but the reflex happens before that signal even reaches the brain.

“JaRed… The meaning of the name is “he who descended” (Hebrew root YRD). In the Book of Enoch it is explained that Mahalaleel named Jared because during his lifetime the angels of the Lord descended to earth.”

This guy, knows what he is talking about.

I Live in the Reign,

It’s been comin’ for some time.

Shining down like water.

Sean

 

[Lynxdk]

I believe the exact specifics will forever be a mystery on earth. Only when we see God face to face in Heaven will the mystery be revealed.

Forever a Mystery… to an extent, I agree, but only because there’s so much to learn from our God, but we need not fear death. They’re coming back. I thought Catholics recognized that, or have we just become too worldly in our beliefs?

They move me, all the time. It’s scary sometimes. It’s scary right now. I still Love and Trust them =)

But this is an important concept to express, because before, people used to get all caught up in Only the Masculine attributes of Yahweh, and disregarded that They are Both, The Most Masculine and The Most Feminine. It says so right in Genesis.

Unfortunately people keep changing the words. I remember reading something about those who change the words at the end of the book, too =/

Sean

 

[glendab]

Hello Sean.

It’s part of my “job” to think about these things. Catholic means Universal, which makes it, by default, the One True Church, as far as I’m concerned. All Inclusive, like God.

Discussing these topics in a philosophy thread is an exercise in getting to know Yahweh Better, especially for people that have no direct path because of the obstacles in their way.

Jesus is One Part of the Trinity, and seeing it that way, as strictly male, is a mistake people have been making for 2000 years now (more really, but we don’t need to go back that far to talk about this). God is So much More than One Person, however important that person might be. God is big enough to be called a few names. I’m sure he’ll get around to correcting people about the ones he doesn’t like, in His own time

Sean

If thinking out side the box is your “job,” then you should be getting paid plenty.

Your re-definition of the Trinity and the “mistake” you see the Church as making for two thousand years in identifying God as male is your own mistake. Jesus is 100% male. The Son of Man isn’t an exercise in semantics for the sake of discussion. It is settled dogma. Yeah like 2000 plus year old settled. To disagree with that is dangerous not to mention hurtful to others. If you’ve called God a few names because He’s big enough to take it, you might want to take your outside-the-box thinking into the Box for a good Confession but some sins are reserved to the Holy See.

Glenda