If I am being held at gunpoint

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Without looking it up, I recall vaguely what the Jewish commentaries say about conflicts in obeying the (613) commandments. There are four commandments that you can never disregard, one of these is denying your faith in God and another is committing murder. I haven’t read all the preceding posts; nevertheless, I don’t recall the Catechism rendering an opinion about these conflicting commandments of the OT.

So, you’re not supposed to work on the sabbath, but if your life is threatened, you can work on the sabbath. But, you can’t deny your faith in God or murder another person.
 
But AFAIK, the Catholic definition of “evil” goes far beyond “causing someone else to be a victim”. If that was the definition, then consensual sex acts, drug abuse, etc., wouldn’t even be an issue, since they do not cause “someone else to be a victim”. (And St. Maria Goretti would be an idiot, not a saint.)
I didn’t state that that was the definition of evil. I was trying to differentiate between choosing to harm/kill someone else to avoid anything bad happening to you vs. choosing between 2 levels of harm that directed at you either way. In the rape scenario you are being harmed no matter what. Any evil act performed still harms yourself and is only done to limit further harm to yourself.

In the OP scenario you are choosing to perform a morally evil act to avoid harm to yourself. You are acting in a self interested way rather than a selfless way and are willing to perform an evil act for your self interest to ensure no harm comes to you, even at the expense of another.

My mentioning this before was not to place one wrong higher or lower than another, but rather to show that the dynamics and choices of the analogies were rather different.

Also, consensual sex acts do cause harm to one another spiritually, as well as to spouses (current or future), can cause relationship/trust issues, etc… Drug abuse hurts the families, society, etc… so they are not “victimless” crimes.
I also noticed that you did not address the case of the rapist who got his victim to cooperate, not by threatening her with physical harm, but by threatening her child with harm. That I think is the most appropriate analogy to the OP’s scenario.
This scenario is a somewhat more appropriate analogy, though instead of being asked to harm someone else, your choice is between harm coming upon your child, or harm coming upon your self. Enduring the rape would possibly be an act of self sacrifice; a giving over of one’s own well being to save the well being of the child.
I agree, but if this was the case all prostitutes would be guilty of mortal sin, and the only exception would be those who are literally kidnapped into sexual slavery. But AFAIK the Church does NOT reach that.
You are again trying to judge the level/state of sin of a particular person. We cannot do this, but can only judge the morality of acts. We can say that someone has performed a morally evil act, but we cannot judge their culpability. Circumstance (duress, threats, social pressure, addictions, culture, etc) all contribute to the individual responsibility for actions. Two prostitutes could perform the exact same actions and one may be more culpable than another because of circumstances.
Again, what about the scenario of a rapist threatening to harm his victim’s child? If the victim hadn’t capitulated, but, say, had fought back, only to be overpowered, or had run away and called the police, and the rapist had followed through on his threat. Would she be at all responsible for his sick actions?
No, you are not responsible for the evil conducted by someone else. As a parent, you do have a responsibility to protect your children as best you can, but in a scenario like this, you are not choosing anything morally evil. Sacrificing your self for others is one of the the greatest forms of love, but you are also not culpable for the morally evil acts of others if there is no possible morally good way to stop them.
I agree that there is only the illusion of choice in this scenario. But I would also say that is the case for the OP’s scenario.
I still see a more definitive choice present in the OP’s scenario.
 
I completely agree with that, BUT I would also apply this to the victim in the original scenario.
I agree as well. I stated this in a previous post.
And while I can’t think of any real life scenarios that completely mirror the OP. I can think of cases where a bank manager helped bank robbers to rob the bank she worked at, because they were holding her family hostage. She was actually almost arrested herself, though in the end the authorities decided to let her go. I believe she was fired, or at least demoted, from her job however.
Then there was the case of the man who robbed a bank with a bomb strapped around his neck. Interestingly, although he claimed to be a completely innocent victim, who was coerced to commit the crime, the people who had strapped the bomb around his neck claimed he had actually been complicit in the crime and he actually wanted to use the bomb as a way to get off scot-free by claiming he was coerced. But I’m not sure if I believe them, either.
Theft involves property. Protecting human life (of self or others) is of a higher priority than protecting possessions/ownership of material goods.

Catechism states:
2408 The seventh commandment forbids theft, that is, usurping another’s property against the reasonable will of the owner. There is no theft if consent can be presumed or if refusal is contrary to reason and the universal destination of goods. This is the case in obvious and urgent necessity when the only way to provide for immediate, essential needs (food, shelter, clothing . . .) is to put at one’s disposal and use the property of others.190
Protecting human life would negate the concept of theft and the property taken would be being used to provide for immediate, essential needs (bank manager family, Brian Wells, etc…) Refusal of turning over the goods would be contrary to reason and the universal destination of goods.
 
If I am being held at gunpoint, and am told to murder someone or else my family and I will be shot, would I commit a mortal sin if I murdered the person?
It would not be the right thing to do to murder the innocent person under this scenario or any scenario. As other posters have mentioned quoting from the CCC, the commandment Thou shall not kill which involves the deliberate murder of an innocent person cannot be lawfully and rightly done under any circumstances such as here under gunpoint or from any good intentions. It is an intrinsically evil act and we are not to do evil that good may come of it whether to save our own lives, our family, or a whole country. Jesus said what good is it for a man to gain the whole world and suffer the loss of his own soul; Any man who wishes to save his life will lose it and he who looses his life for my sake and the gospel will save it; There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. If the person under gun point here shot the innocent person that’s hardly loving your neighbor or laying down your life for him.

It’s possible that if the person under gunpoint did shoot the innocent party, there could be, but not absolutely necessarily, a mitigating of culpability. A person who knows the right thing to do according to God’s law in this scenario and still shoots the innocent party could very well be guilty of mortal sin. I don’t think the mitigation of the culpability necessarily goes from mortal to venial sin either although that is possible. I think it is possible that the mitigation of culpability may stay in the category of mortal sin but lesson the gravity of it. Being held at gunpoint doesn’t necessarily diminish culpability. The fact of the matter is that there are or can be situations in life where God may ask of us to sacrifice our life for his sake and the gospel. Jesus gave us an example of this by his life and teaching as well as the martyrs and saints and many christians who have not been canonized but we read about throughout the history of christianity. If a person holds you at gunpoint to deny Christ to save your life and you deny Christ, good luck with answering that to Christ when you die and meet him. Jesus said he who acknowledges me before men I will acknowledge before my Father in heaven; he who disowns me before men I will disown before my Father in heaven.

In my estimation, under the scenario you present here, if the person under gunpoint shot the innocent person who could be just a nine year old girl to save his own and his family’s lives, this person is not a very good person or if this person is a christian, not a very good christian.
 
If I am being held at gunpoint, and am told to murder someone or else my family and I will be shot, would I commit a mortal sin if I murdered the person?
(Objectively) Yes. The gunman is not a runaway train- a mere mechanical force with no moral agency. Ultimately, in this scenario, he has control over who gets murdered. But he cannot force you to murder, since you are a sentient moral agent. He can only coerce you to do this evil, but you need not relent and you must not “do evil so that good may come”.

No matter what a persons threatens, the power for him to do or not do does not lie in you, but in him. Likewise, you retain the power to direct your own will. You may not murder in the hopes of saving another.

The difference with the runaway train situation is that in that scenario you are not intentionally aiming and pulling the trigger to kill someone. Instead, you are on the bullet(train) and you can merely leave it be and have it kill people or redirect it to another path which will unintentionally kill someone else.

The issue with diminished culpability is present with EVERY mortal sin. The trouble is that human beings are not completely rational creatures. We have many layers to our nature- emotional, instinctive, etc… apart from the rational. And thus we often do not truly know what we will do in such a given extreme and not fully anticipated situation. God knows all of this and will judge us accordingly.

But to try to get out of the predicament by appealing to diminished culpability is firstly, doomed as a logical philosophical moral argument and secondly, a sure way to justify yourself into Hell.
 
(Objectively) Yes. The gunman is not a runaway train- a mere mechanical force with no moral agency. Ultimately, in this scenario, he has control over who gets murdered. But he cannot force you to murder, since you are a sentient moral agent. He can only coerce you to do this evil, but you need not relent and you must not “do evil so that good may come”.

No matter what a persons threatens, the power for him to do or not do does not lie in you, but in him. Likewise, you retain the power to direct your own will. You may not murder in the hopes of saving another.

The difference with the runaway train situation is that in that scenario you are not intentionally aiming and pulling the trigger to kill someone. Instead, you are on the bullet(train) and you can merely leave it be and have it kill people or redirect it to another path which will unintentionally kill someone else.

The issue with diminished culpability is present with EVERY mortal sin. The trouble is that human beings are not completely rational creatures. We have many layers to our nature- emotional, instinctive, etc… apart from the rational. And thus we often do not truly know what we will do in such a given extreme and not fully anticipated situation. God knows all of this and will judge us accordingly.

But to try to get out of the predicament by appealing to diminished culpability is firstly, doomed as a logical philosophical moral argument and secondly, a sure way to justify yourself into Hell.
Excellent response! 👍
 
As do I. We can judge the morality of acts, but we cannot judge the character of ones heart, nor can we distribute mortal sin certifications or get out of jail free coupons.

Ones state of grace is ultimately known only by their Creator, and no algorithm or rubric man devises can calculate exact culpability, responsibility, or guilt.
 
Are you kidding!? I’ll take the posters any day!!!

Birth control! Check
Homosexual relations. Check
Adultery. Check!

With the vast majority of posters I’ve seen I would not be held accountable for anything! Party on Wayne!

Except, uh oh, I voted for trump and my favorite pope would not match theirs.

You are right, to hell I go…
 
I would not take God’s judgement so lightly.
Also, the same goes for any sin.

Mortal Sin Check:
Serial Killing? “Only God knows.”
Serial Raping? “Only God knows”
Serial Torturer? “Only God knows”
Perpetrator of a national genocide? “Only God knows”

The above is technically correct. Perhaps the famous “evil men” of history like Stalin, Mao Zedong, Hitler, Pol Pot, Castro and the like are on their way or already in heaven with God now. And you know what? I hope they are! I hope they were just seriously misguided or repented at the last minute.

But we know that heaven is not assured and that being in the formal Church gives us a greater hope in getting there. It’s better to be slightly on the scrupulous side and try to avoid potential mortal sins, in both normal and extreme situations than to try to justify it away by appealing to subjectivism, ignorance or God’s mercy.

Ultimately, we need that mercy. But that doesn’t entitle us to justify our sins or abuse of his mercy.
 
If I am being held at gunpoint, and am told to murder someone or else my family and I will be shot, would I commit a mortal sin if I murdered the person?
I would be questioning the trustworthiness of the gunman. Yes, I’ll probably be shot dead, but I know that the gunman is already not trustworthy. So he makes a promise, I know I have no way of knowing if he will actually keep the promise.
 
Oh deacon, Even Jordan missed a turnaround jumper every once in a while. I still think you are one of the smartest people on here. You and 1ke.
There will be other shots to take!
 
I think I’ve made valid responses on this thread. Using extreme examples to make a point is an ancient and useful technique. When one is in doubt of what is wrong, I think its sound advice to choose the greater good, even if it is not morally necessary.

And while I share and celebrate your appreciation for God’s mercy, I reiterate my point that one should not use God’s mercy as an excuse for choosing a lessor good or doing evil. While I don’t presume to know God’s infinite mind, I do know his teachings and commandments. And I know that we should follow them to the best of our ability, even though we will fail and will need that mercy, too.

If someone has committed an evil in a difficult situation, I agree that we shouldn’t be pointing the finger at that individual, lest he fall into despair. However, even if it’s not directed at me, to finger wag and “judge” others for answering a theoretical moral question is nonsensical to me.

In fact, in this question we are all explicitly called to judge- Because we are not judging a real person’s heart, but rather a situation and what a person’s heart’s state might be in such a situation. These are questions which help us define and mature our understanding of morality and may well aid us to make correct moral choices when real moral challenges come to our lives.

To put up your hands and state that “We don’t know what’s sin or not- That’s for God only!” is dangerous advice. Sure, we don’t know the state of men’s hearts and their ultimate destiny. But that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t be able to distinguish between behavior that is sinful and that which is not. In fact, if the Church isn’t teaching that then its not doing its job. For the job of the Church is to save souls and the teachings of the Church help guide souls towards salvation.
 
Although this did NOT happen to me, I discussed a similarly serious situation to a priest once who informed me that cases like that would lessen the seriousness of the sin, but NOT necessarily make it as sinless.
 
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