If I am saved by faith alone, why do I need to read the Bible?

[1voice]

'kay. And how is it that the Apostles could know whether someone was repentant or not, or even what her sins are, unless she confessed them to the Apostles?

Peter knew … when Ananias and Sophira sinned … and knew what God’s judgement was.
… that was an extreme breach though … that required a drastic action.
Paul knew… and sent a letter imploring repentance … before he arrived … so that he would not have to exercise discipline and judgement.
John knew … because Jesus instructed exactly what was going on in the 7 Churches.
Extreme rebellion required extraordinary steps.

But…
Jesus himself gave clear,simple,specific instruction,for those with a humble , contrite spirit … to deal with sin … "Father in heaven … forgive us our sins … as we forgive.
That is a direct instruction to speak directly to God… plus nothing.

Where in the Bible does it say that it is required of a truly repentent person … to confess sin and receive forgiveness from anyone except God and the person that is wronged.

Assuming, of course, that they are not in denial and therefore requiring a disciplinary process perhaps as described in the Gospel… leading to excommunication / dis fellowship/shunting (different terms, different churches) … in rare /extreme cases.

 

[pablope]

Peter knew … when Ananias and Sophira sinned … and knew what But…
Jesus himself gave clear,simple,specific instruction,for those with a humble , contrite spirit … to deal with sin … "Father in heaven …** forgive us our sins … as we forgive.
That is a direct instruction to speak directly to God… plus nothing**.

in rare /extreme cases.

On this part…it just says “forgive our sins as we forgive those who sin against us”…it is just asking for the mercy of God and that we should also be merciful when we pray…it does not say how to confess. I think you are extending the verse very elastically to say this is saying the manner of confession .

The Our Father is a model of how to pray, not an instruction of how to confess.

And if as you are saying that “Jesus himself gave clear,simple,specific instruction” to deal with sin, isn’t then Jesus is contradicting Himself with His instruction to the Apostles in John 20 v23?

How do you reconcile this conflict?

 

[1voice]

Okay you said GOd in his GRACE provides faith to be saved. Now if this is true how can it be FAITH ALONE. Because you see that is what we are arguing about.

BY the Grace of GOd it is Possible to have faith, the more GRACE you have the easier it is to live OUT your faith. BUt what if you have faith but refuse to live it out? You still have faith but you refuse to us it. Are you still saved?

The “faith alone” phrase was established in direct response to the ideas like … climbing up hundreds of steps on your knees with broken glass on each step…while saying the Rosary … was the way to God.

 

[1voice]

On this part…it just says “forgive our sins as we forgive those who sin against us”…it is just asking for the mercy of God and that we should also be merciful when we pray…it does not say how to confess. I think you are extending the verse very elastically to say this is saying the manner of confession .

The Our Father is a model of how to pray, not an instruction of how to confess.

And if as you are saying that “Jesus himself gave clear,simple,specific instruction” to deal with sin, isn’t then Jesus is contradicting Himself with His instruction to the Apostles in John 20 v23?

How do you reconcile this conflict?

There is no conflict.

For circumstances where people are humble before God…
Jesus said to ask God … directly to forgive our sins. it could not be more clear. He also clearly said that we have the right to go directly to the Father and “ask ANYTHING in my name”… because of his sacrifice.

The gift/ power to retain or forgive is applied when circumstances demand the breaking down of strong holds in the accounts in epistles and gospels.

The instruction to the Apostles was used effectively in the following ways…

For circumstances where new ground is being taken by those specially equipped … if you enter a town and they reject the gospel … retain their sin.(paraphrased of course)

For circumstances where strong discipline is required…
Peter used the right to retain sin when he dealt with Ananias and Sophira.

For circumstances where Paul was building and encouraging the churches he planted…He wrote and reminded people of his right to bring judgement (retain sin) if they did not take the initiative to repent on their own before he arrived.

When Simon the Sorcerer wanted to buy the ability to minister Gods power … His sin was retained.

… for people living the Christian life … that walk with God … Jesus said … Go to your Father and ask … anything.

 

[PRmerger]

Peter knew … when Ananias and Sophira sinned … and knew what God’s judgement was.
… that was an extreme breach though … that required a drastic action.
Paul knew… and sent a letter imploring repentance … before he arrived … so that he would not have to exercise discipline and judgement.
John knew … because Jesus instructed exactly what was going on in the 7 Churches.
Extreme rebellion required extraordinary steps.

'Tis true, this.

So are you saying that all of the Apostles who received the gift of the Holy Spirit knew everyone’s sins and the degree of their repentance?

 

[PRmerger]

Hi, 1voice. Just wondering if you could address these questions I posed earlier:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRmerger View Post
'kay. And how does your church apply this disciplinary tool?
Quote:
'kay. And how is it that the Apostles could know whether someone was repentant or not, or even what her sins are, unless she confessed them to the Apostles?
Quote:
Is this how your church does it? Your congregants must confess their sins to another, and then to the elders, and then to the entire church?

 

[pablope]

There is no conflict.

For circumstances where people are humble before God…
Jesus said to ask God … directly to forgive our sins. it could not be more clear. He also clearly said that we have the right to go directly to the Father and "ask ANYTHING

 

[1voice]

And when you ask anything of the Father, isn’t it according to the Father’s will, not according to our will? So if the Father’s will is not to forgive your sin directed at Him, so how will you know if the sin is forgiven or not?

 

[PRmerger]

pablope;8153127:

“God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world”

Forgiveness … and reconciliation of a broken relationship with God has been the focus of God’s plan since Adam fell … All the way down through history.

If you ask your father for a loaf of bread … will he give you a stone?

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and** just**

, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity.

“A bruised reed he will not break.”

2And opening his mouth, he taught them, saying:

3Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4Blessed are the meek: for they shall possess the land.

5Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

6Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after **justice**: for they shall have their fill.

“Justice … and mercy … shall kiss.”

Catholics, of course, give a hearty to the above.

However, we just understand that God set up a way for us to have our sins forgiven, and who are we to say that we reject this way, simply because we find it unpalatable to have to confess our sins to a man?

This is the essence of the non-Catholic’s argument against confession: it’s kind of icky to have to admit one’s sins, say them out loud and hear another human being acknowledge our sinfulness. So rather than take God at His Word, the non-Catholic has succumbed to the words of the serpent, uttered millenia ago: “Did God really say…” and decided, “Nope, God really didn’t say…”

 

[pablope]

If God gave you the bread directly, then you would become lazy. And so, yes, He will give you a stone…so that you can make something out of it to make or earn your bread…you can make a tool out of it, so that you can make or learn how to earn your bread.

In the same vein, Jesus instituted the the sacrament of confession so that we can merit his forgiveness, for it takes a lot of courage and fortitude to confess your sin orally to a priest. It is not an easy thing to do…it takes humility, and through humility, one can wean themselves away from sin.

And this is why God ordered Eliphaz in this passager to go through Job to be forgiven:

Job 42:

Epilogue
7 After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. 8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.” 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the LORD told them; and the LORD accepted Job’s prayer.

So, my question to you: Why did God just not directly forgive Eliphaz and this two friends, since God spoke to him directly? Why did He tell them to go through Job?

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and** just**

, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity.

This just tells us that if we confess, he is faithful to forgive, but the passage does not give you the manner of how to confess. To be forgiven, wouldn’t you want to follow the command of the Lord on how to confess? And not follow somebody’s opinion?

 

[rinnie]

The “faith alone” phrase was established in direct response to the ideas like … climbing up hundreds of steps on your knees with broken glass on each step…while saying the Rosary … was the way to God.

You lost me there. Where is it said in the bible about these climbing up hundreds of steps on your /////////////////////

When we pray it is because it is what Jesus commanded and taught us to do. Jesus got on his hands and knees and he prayed, that is how we learned it.

Jesus also taught us to pray for one another and ask others to pray for us.

Could you show me where you feel the two are the same?

We ask the Blessed Mother and others Saints to pray for us the same reason God told Job’s friends to ask Job to pray for them. Because Job was righteous.

 

[rinnie]

pablope;8153127:

“God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world”

Forgiveness … and reconciliation of a broken relationship with God has been the focus of God’s plan since Adam fell … All the way down through history.

If you ask your father for a loaf of bread … will he give you a stone?

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and** just**

, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity.

“A bruised reed he will not break.”

2And opening his mouth, he taught them, saying:

3Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4Blessed are the meek: for they shall possess the land.

5Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

6Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after **justice**: for they shall have their fill.

“Justice … and mercy … shall kiss.”

If Christ did not come to this world to condemn the world why does scripture state otherwise.

Also if this is the world Of Christ as you state why does Christ say this is not my world. If this was my world the world would love me, but it hates me, and remember when you are hated that I was hated first.

If Christ does not condemn the ways of the world why does he state that this world is not of him it is of the evil one?

 

[rinnie]

1voice, you said Jesus said we are to ask God directly to forgive our sins. What makes you think that when we confess our sins to a Priest we are not speaking directly to God?

Do you reject the Power to forgive sins that Jesus had given to him by his Father, Remember the scripture when he was forgivng sins? Do you feel he had the AUTHORITY to forgive sins? When he spoke to Mary Mag. and said go and sin no more, do you feel he had the authority to do so. Was Jesus not also Human, a man?

SO if you agree that Jesus had the power to forgive sins, why do you reject the power he gave to his Apostles and told them to go and forgive sins in my name. All authority of heaven and earth has been given to me, and I now give it to you. What part of that scripture do you reject? All of it I would presume.

Because if you disagree that a Priest does not have that authority, then would you not reject the authoirty of Christ?

 

[1voice]

You lost me there. Where is it said in the bible about these climbing up hundreds of steps on your /////////////////////

“Faith alone” Is a phrase that was used to encapsulate the concept of total dependence on God for all that is needed from the first inkling that “God is” … right through all that unfolds in the process of God being the “rewarder of those that diligently seek him.”

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him. For he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

This truth was in strak contrast to the standard of the day for people, who were dedicated to the monastic life around the 15th century … and dedicated to pleasing God and “working out their salvation with fear and trembling” … who thought it necessary (in order to obey that scripture) to subdue the flesh by chastising it in the ways that I describe above … among others …( such as … sack cloth and ashes…wearing a course hair shirt scourging ones body with a whip)

 

[rinnie]

“Faith alone” Is a phrase that was used to encapsulate the concept of total dependence on God for all that is needed from the first inkling that “God is” … right through all that unfolds in the process of God being the “rewarder of those that diligently seek him.”

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him. For he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

This truth was in strak contrast to the standard of the day for people, who were dedicated to the monastic life around the 15th century … and dedicated to pleasing God and “working out their salvation with fear and trembling” … who thought it necessary (in order to obey that scripture) to subdue the flesh by chastising it in the ways that I describe above … among others …( such as … sack cloth and ashes…wearing a course hair shirt scourging ones body with a whip)

Although faith alone was never a teaching of the Church or the bible. I guees it is just another example of people taking the word of God and turning the meaning into something they want it to be, and not what God taught it to be, do you not agree?

Also what is your response on what I asked you on 252?

 

[GaryTaylor]

The Holy Stairs still exist in Rome, they were used as an indulgence. For each step required prayer, so time was taken off a chosen one in purgatory being prayed for. There was “no glass” on the stairs. My how playing telephone is in full effect here. Martin Luther had prayed on the stairs and concluded there was no validity to the indulgence.

Where was scourging ones body with a whip part of the Catholic belief…show us the LINK? My how things become taken out of context.

Obedience, penance, reparation and acts of love and charity as a prerequisite for acceptance into His kingdom, and for the reward of eternal life.

 

[rinnie]

The Holy Stairs still exist in Rome, they were used as an indulgence. For each step required prayer, so time was taken off a chosen one in purgatory being prayed for. There was “no glass” on the stairs. My how playing telephone is in full effect here. Martin Luther had prayed on the stairs and concluded there was no validity to the indulgence.

Where was scourging ones body with a whip part of the Catholic belief…show us the LINK? My how things become taken out of context.

Obedience, penance, reparation and acts of love and charity as a prerequisite for acceptance into His kingdom, and for the reward of eternal life.

What you don’t hear huh. I did hear that Luther beat himself etc, never quite understood any of that. I personally thought because of the demons that tormented him:shrug:

 

[GaryTaylor]

What is James talking about?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

St Paul is mentioned above, no-where does Paul use Faith and Alone in conjunction with each other. The connection doesn’t exist in his letters and intentionally so. Being Paul was a Genius I’m sure he would have effectively elaborated had “faith alone” been a truth. The fact he did not do so, ought to indicate it “was not” a concept the Holy Spirit guided Him to speak on.

 

[rinnie]

What is James talking about?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

St Paul is mentioned above, no-where does Paul use Faith and Alone in conjunction with each other. The connection doesn’t exist in his letters and intentionally so. Being Paul was a Genius I’m sure he would have effectively elaborated had “faith alone” been a truth. The fact he did not do so, ought to indicate it “was not” a concept the Holy Spirit guided Him to speak on.

I personally think what this faith alone came into play was people not practicing what they preached.

You not only saw it in the days of Jesus you see it today.People saying I don’t have to confess my sins, I don’t have to go to church, I don’t have to help others, I don’t have to …the list goes on and on.

But what ST Paul is saying is what Christ said to the Pharasies thousands of years ago, you need to practice what you preach.

LIke chairty begins at home. You see people who will not talk to their Mother or Father who are in need, will pass them right up, but do for a stranger

And you think HOW could they do this, But then being human and seeing how some parents have treated their children in the past, you hate to admit it, but you can relate.

My Aunt was never there for my cousin, and they have never had the relationship I have with my Mother, and as much as I cannot agree with my cousins actions, I must admit I can relate to how she feels. Its hard to forgive and forget. But you learn its not impossible to forgive, but it is to forget.

Thats when you have to pray for Grace to learn to get through these problems. But I am sad to say My cousin and her Mom have not prayed enough for that grace. They would much better compare war wounds as they say. And now that my Aunt seems to be getting closer to meeting her maker her resentment seems to hang on. And unfortunately my cousin seems to continue as she was taught.

But we can all relate to this in our family or others we are close to. It is there.

 

[PRmerger]