If I am saved by faith alone, why do I need to read the Bible?

[GaryTaylor]

Right, well here’s the thing…

In order to SAVE our Souls we have an obligation to keep our Faith. Faith is not a blind or Vague concept.

Faith is an infused supernatural virtue which all Baptised receive at the moment of Baptism. Nevertheless this virtue does not always remain in every Baptised soul. In many case’s it is lost through free-will and temptation. We must be aware we have an “obligation” to preserve our Faith. This is accomplished through the gift of Grace given by the Lord through His church. Established through Peter and the Apostles with the authority to Bind and Lose.

The basis of Salvation is our faith. Faith alone is not enough but is absolutely needed, If faith is taken from us we cannot be saved unless we regain our Faith:shrug:

Many think they can do good on their own, or that any Good they have is not through the Grace of God. Its easier to live without Air than Gods Grace.

The Athanasian Creed pretty much sums it all up. As does Matthew and John.

 

[rinnie]

Right, well here’s the thing…

In order to SAVE our Souls we have an obligation to keep our Faith. Faith is not a blind or Vague concept.

Faith is an infused supernatural virtue which all Baptised receive at the moment of Baptism. Nevertheless this virtue does not always remain in every Baptised soul. In many case’s it is lost through free-will and temptation. We must be aware we have an “obligation” to preserve our Faith. This is accomplished through the gift of Grace given by the Lord through His church. Established through Peter and the Apostles with the authority to Bind and Lose.

The basis of Salvation is our faith. Faith alone is not enough but is absolutely needed, If faith is taken from us we cannot be saved unless we regain our Faith:shrug:

Many think they can do good on their own, or that any Good they have is not through the Grace of God. Its easier to live without Air than Gods Grace.

The Athanasian Creed pretty much sums it all up. As does Matthew and John.

Agreed, And people read the word of God, define what it says and run with it.

They are not proclaiming Gods truth they are proclaiming their own truth.

I feel bad for these people who continue to be taught what other people portray as the truth. The Church is the pilar of all truth.

The bible itself tells us, we do not have the Gift of the Holy Spirit TO INTERPRET Scripture. Yet People continue to do so and go against the teachings of the Church.

It is not our faith that saves us, although living out that faith through the Grace of God is a very very good start. But only God can judge us in heart and soul rather we passed or failed.

When people say I know I am saved then they are making themself God. Because only GOD can make that decision.

 

[pablope]

OK, how about: Romans 10:9???

Evidently that doesn’t mean anything to Catholics???

What about Rom 10:9

9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

But you see, Ronin…this is just one part of the Bible, and you seem so focused on it that you miss other parts.

We catholics look at the whole Bible, not just isolated parts.

Let me ask you this then: Why don’t you also tell us about the following verses and harmonize them with Rom 10:9

Romans 11:

20That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Question: What does being “cut off” mean? And “cut off” from what?

Heb 10:

26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.

Question: What is needed to “receive what is promised”?

Matt 7:21:

21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Question: What does "saying “Lord, Lord” mean?

And what is needed to enter the kingdom of heaven?

After answering this, who do you think is confused?

 

[1voice]

OK, how about: Romans 10:9???

Evidently that doesn’t mean anything to Catholics???

Faith is the instrument by which a person is saved. Faith is also the instrument by which salvation is maintained as well. Faith must be exercised and strengthened continuously. “The righteous live by faith” … “Without faith it is impossible to please God.” “Stephen… full of faith”
By contrast…
Ananias and Sophira started out on the right foot by having faith in God … but then lost sight of the truth when they were tempted by greed and reverted to faith in themselves…

Salvation must be maintained. “Work out your salvation” Phil 2:12

In the Book of Revelation Jesus clearly states that it is possible to leave your first love by focusing on the wrong things or developing a wrong attitude.

 

[Supercatholic]

I like the posts about The Bible running second to The Church. I like it because it needs to be clarified. The Bible itself says The pillars and foundation of the truth is the church. It doesn’t say the pillars and foundation of the truth is this book. Jesus himself said if you have a problem take it to the church. He didn’t say resolve it with a scripture reading. WHY?? Because his mission was to establish one authoritative teaching church that has endured for many centuries, not a book that has 10s of 1000s of opinions called “denominations”. Like an owner’s manual that comes with an automobile, the manual does not tell you how to drive your car nor does it drive the car for you. But it does have pertinent information you will need to know, but no matter how much you have read and/or have memorized, it’s your driving of the car that gets you to your destination. Well the Catholic Church is like a bus on the way to heaven and all the faith and owner manual readings in the world isn’t going to get you anywhere if your not on that bus.

 

[Rightlydivide]

PRmerger;8143720]I think your error lies in equating eternal life with being saved. 1 John 5 does not mention being “saved” but rather “eternal life”. *“These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life,”
*
Do you have a Scripture verse that says that when one has eternal life he is guaranteed a spot in heaven?

See how Catholics understand what eternal life is:

[veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/1_John_5E]](http://www.veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/1_John_5E])

Interesting the commentary you linked skips the verse I cited. It just flat skips it. Well…this is one way to handle a passage…

So according to your definition eternal life is present now?

 

[PRmerger]

OK, how about: Romans 10:9???

Evidently that doesn’t mean anything to Catholics???

Catholics use the entire Word of God to understand how we are saved.

We believe that we were once saved
Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5-8

We are currently being saved.
1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12

And we hope to be saved.
Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15

 

[PRmerger]

Faith is the instrument by which a person is saved. Faith is also the instrument by which salvation is maintained as well. Faith must be exercised and strengthened continuously. “The righteous live by faith” … “Without faith it is impossible to please God.” “Stephen… full of faith”
By contrast…
Ananias and Sophira started out on the right foot by having faith in God … but then lost sight of the truth when they were tempted by greed and reverted to faith in themselves…

Salvation must be maintained. “Work out your salvation” Phil 2:12

In the Book of Revelation Jesus clearly states that it is possible to leave your first love by focusing on the wrong things or developing a wrong attitude.

Hi, 1voice.

Could you please answer the question that I posed in post #183?

Why would, then, Jesus tell his apostles to “retain” sins? How does that work in your paradigm?

 

[PRmerger]

We catholics look at the whole Bible, not just isolated parts

'zactly.

Catholics believe what the Bible says about how we are saved:

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By his Cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)

 

[PRmerger]

[veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/1_John_5E]](http://www.veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/1_John_5E])

Interesting the commentary you linked skips the verse I cited. It just flat skips it. Well…this is one way to handle a passage…

So according to your definition eternal life is present now?

Let’s not get diverted, yet, Rightly.

Firstly, is there a Scripture verse that tells you that eternal life equals a guaranteed spot in heaven?

(According to John 17 eternal life is knowledge of God, not salvation.)

Secondly, the Haydock commentary is simply that, a commentary. It is not to be confused with Catholic doctrine. That it skips a verse is, well, a testament that it is not comprehensive in its commentary. Nothing more than that.

 

[PRmerger]

So according to your definition eternal life is present now?

Eternal life is present in those of us who receive the Eucharist.

Eternal life is knowledge of God; it is a qualitative presence, not a quantitative entity. That is, it is not a either/or (either one has eternal life or one doesn’t have it.)

Our participation in the eternal life of God is through the Sacraments, in particular the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[1voice]

Originally Posted by 1voice
When a person sins … they break fellowship with God… God has given a way of escape from broken fellowship. That way is through the faith to know that God always honors true repentance… and we are guaranteed complete restoration the instant we repent. … 70 X 7

The instant?

Why would, then, Jesus tell his apostles to “retain” sins? How does that work in your paradigm?

If a person forgives an apologetic co-worker for a direct/ cutting insult … and there is true remorse and true forgiveness … is the sin retained … unless a Priest gets involved?

 

[1voice]

Hi, 1voice.

Could you please answer the question that I posed in post #183?

Why would, then, Jesus tell his apostles to “retain” sins? How does that work in your paradigm?

He didnt tell them to retain everybody’s sins.
Retaining sin is a disciplinary tool where applied in the context of the gospels and epistles. It is not the default position of a Christian until a Priest gets involved.

He said that they could hold back forgiveness… when they felt it to be justified.
Retaining sin is a tool to be used in circumstances where repentance is clearly not present … such as Ananias and Sophira.

I think it was Paul the Apostle who expounded on the subject and created more clarity when he described the scenario where one Christian goes to another to get him/ her to repent … upon refusal it goes to the elders … then it goes to the entire body. Only at that point is the sin formally retained… and with dire consequences.

I recall where Paul also warned people to get their hearts right before he got there … so that discipline was not necessary. Turning people over to satan and retaining sins were both extreme disciplinary actions reserved for specific circumstances of unrepentence.

Example: Jesus said that if his message was rejected by a town … then the messengers should shake the dust off and know that judgement was imminent. Their sins were retained (by the messengers) because the people refused to repent.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Eternal life is present in those of us who receive the Eucharist.

Eternal life is knowledge of God; it is a qualitative presence, not a quantitative entity. That is, it is not a either/or (either one has eternal life or one doesn’t have it.)

Our participation in the eternal life of God is through the Sacraments, in particular the Blessed Sacrament.

Worthy or unworthy? Both?

 

[PRmerger]

If a person forgives an apologetic co-worker for a direct/ cutting insult … and there is true remorse and true forgiveness … is the sin retained … unless a Priest gets involved?

Did the co-worker ask God for His forgiveness?

(BTW: No priest is needed for forgiveness of venial sins, provided that the sinner asks God for forgiveness.)

 

[PRmerger]

He didnt tell them to retain everybody’s sins.

This is true, but a non-sequitur. No one here has posited that they “retain everybody’s sins”.

Retaining sin is a disciplinary tool where applied in the context of the gospels and epistles.

'kay. And how does your church apply this disciplinary tool?

It is not the default position of a Christian until a Priest gets involved.

Again, no one here has posited that it is the default position.

He said that they could hold back forgiveness… when they felt it to be justified.
Retaining sin is a tool to be used in circumstances where repentance is clearly not present … such as Ananias and Sophira.

'kay. And how is it that the Apostles could know whether someone was repentant or not, or even what her sins are, unless she confessed them to the Apostles?

I think it was Paul the Apostle who expounded on the subject and created more clarity when he described the scenario where one Christian goes to another to get him/ her to repent … upon refusal it goes to the elders … then it goes to the entire body. Only at that point is the sin formally retained… and with dire consequences.

Is this how your church does it? Your congregants must confess their sins to another, and then to the elders, and then to the entire church?

You actually have someone stand in front of the entire congregation to confess his unrepentance?

Really?

 

[rinnie]

Originally Posted by 1voice
When a person sins … they break fellowship with God… God has given a way of escape from broken fellowship. That way is through the faith to know that God always honors true repentance… and we are guaranteed complete restoration the instant we repent. … 70 X 7

If a person forgives an apologetic co-worker for a direct/ cutting insult … and there is true remorse and true forgiveness … is the sin retained … unless a Priest gets involved?

No not according to the bible, that is what is called venial sin. But when a person is in a state of Mortal sin, yes he must get a Priest involved. At least according to SS and ST.

For mortal sin to be persent sufficient knowledge, full consent, and the sin must be a grave matter. If all of the 3 exists, Yep you need a Priest.

IF all 3 are not present your soul is not in grave danger.

Now I got a question for you, why does Jesus tell his Apostles to go and forgive sin, and what they forgive is forgiven and what is retained is retained? I keep looking for your scripture and this guarantee of complete restoration, could you show it to me.

By the way why would GOD give a Priest the power to forgive sins (moral that is) if we could do it on our own ??

 

[rinnie]

He didnt tell them to retain everybody’s sins.
Retaining sin is a disciplinary tool where applied in the context of the gospels and epistles. It is not the default position of a Christian until a Priest gets involved.

He said that they could hold back forgiveness… when they felt it to be justified.
Retaining sin is a tool to be used in circumstances where repentance is clearly not present … such as Ananias and Sophira.

I think it was Paul the Apostle who expounded on the subject and created more clarity when he described the scenario where one Christian goes to another to get him/ her to repent … upon refusal it goes to the elders … then it goes to the entire body. Only at that point is the sin formally retained… and with dire consequences.

I recall where Paul also warned people to get their hearts right before he got there … so that discipline was not necessary. Turning people over to satan and retaining sins were both extreme disciplinary actions reserved for specific circumstances of unrepentence.

Example: Jesus said that if his message was rejected by a town … then the messengers should shake the dust off and know that judgement was imminent. Their sins were retained (by the messengers) because the people refused to repent.

Hold on here I am lost, you said he didn’t tell them to retain anyones sins?

John 20:23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven and whose sins you retain are retained.

Now you are saying we don’t need a Priest to forgive our sin. Thats what YOU say, But John 20:23 thats what Jesus says.

Where does Jesus put any conditions on the Apostles. DId he not give them the GIFT of the Holy Spirit, did you miss that part maybe. Could it possibly be that the Church could be right on this one, and when they received the GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT they could be having GOd work through them. Did that ever cross your mind at all. Something for you to think about.

BUt anyway we all have the Gift of the HS to do different things. Thier gift of the HS is to forgive or retain sin. At least thats what the word of GOd says.

What is your take on that scripture?

 

[rinnie]

Faith is the instrument by which a person is saved. Faith is also the instrument by which salvation is maintained as well. Faith must be exercised and strengthened continuously. “The righteous live by faith” … “Without faith it is impossible to please God.” “Stephen… full of faith”
By contrast…
Ananias and Sophira started out on the right foot by having faith in God … but then lost sight of the truth when they were tempted by greed and reverted to faith in themselves…

Salvation must be maintained. “Work out your salvation” Phil 2:12

In the Book of Revelation Jesus clearly states that it is possible to leave your first love by focusing on the wrong things or developing a wrong attitude.

Yes I agree with you there Salvation must be maintained. Word out your salvation, I agree. But you said its our FATH that saves us, remember we are saved by Faith, not grace and you never mentioned our work. You have me confused here, Now are we saved by faith as you stated, or are you beginning to COME AROUND on the teachings of the Church that it is by Grace that we are saved and by the Grace of GOd given faith to do Gods work here on earth, we are working out our Salvation like ST Paul in fear and trembleing?

 

[PRmerger]

Hold on here I am lost, you said he didn’t tell them to retain anyones sins?

rinnie, I think 1voice’s point is that he didn’t tell the Apostles to retain everyone’s sins.

This is a strawman, as no one has ever posited that priests must retain everyone’s sins.