If I am saved by faith alone, why do I need to read the Bible?

[hn160]

One isn’t saved by faith alone, one is saved by faith through Christ, Christ is the object of our faith.

 

[guanophore]

Jesus specifically stated that the sin that would not be forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

That is because it is the sin of final impenitence. A person can blaspheme the HS most of their life, repent, be baptized, and enter eternal life. But if a person remains impenitent to the last minute, such a one will not avail himself of the salvation that has been purchased for him on the cross.

 

[1voice]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
Jesus specifically stated that the sin that would not be forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

That is because it is the sin of final impenitence. A person can blaspheme the HS most of their life, repent, be baptized, and enter eternal life. But if a person remains impenitent to the last minute, such a one will not avail himself of the salvation that has been purchased for him on the cross.

??? … I realize that you feel that you speak from a position of history and tradition and the authority of the Catholic Church and … so on…
But …
The verse has nothing to do with what you are saying… It just doesn’t.

 

[mwok]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
Jesus specifically stated that the sin that would not be forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

The way I heard it explained on Catholic Radio by one of the apologists is that the sin of blaspemy against the Holy Spirit is referring to the belief that one cannot be forgiven so doesn’t ask for forgiveness. This is essentially saying that God is powerless to forgive, which He isn’t. Also, since God infinitely respects our freewill He won’t forgive if we don’t want forgiveness.

 

[rinnie]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
Jesus specifically stated that the sin that would not be forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

??? … I realize that you feel that you speak from a position of history and tradition and the authority of the Catholic Church and … so on…
But …
The verse has nothing to do with what you are saying… It just doesn’t.

Now here is where it gets good. Jesus left us the Church and he took all that time and appointed Apostles to TEACH in that Church and teach us.

Now we got you saying No, it just doesn’t!

 

[1voice]

Now here is where it gets good. Jesus left us the Church and he took all that time and appointed Apostles to TEACH in that Church and teach us.

Now we got you saying No, it just doesn’t!

rinnie,

You cant just say whatever you want and then defend it by saying … Im a Catholic. I mean you can… obviously. You can say red is blue … and believe it with all your heart …

 

[guanophore]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
Jesus specifically stated that the sin that would not be forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

??? … I realize that you feel that you speak from a position of history and tradition and the authority of the Catholic Church and … so on…
But …
The verse has nothing to do with what you are saying… It just doesn’t.

I can understand why it would seem that way to you, since you are standing in a faith tradition that has been separated from the history and tradition of the aposltes for 500+ years. Many modern Christians do not realize that the Scripture is to be interpreted in the light of the Teaching of the Apostles. Some are so far removed from that teaching that they believe the CC “added” things to scripture.

 

[guanophore]

rinnie,

You cant just say whatever you want and then defend it by saying … Im a Catholic. I mean you can… obviously. You can say red is blue … and believe it with all your heart …

The problem with that is, 1voice, the apostles did not teach that red is blue. They taught One Faith. That faith has been passed down to us infallibly by the power of the Holy Spirit. Because that One Faith produced the New Testament, there is nothing in that One Faith that contradicts what is written. The contradiction appears when those who have departed from the One Faith read the bible apart from the faith that produced it. When this happens,all sorts of diverse understandings result. Some of them don’t even believe the HS is a person!

 

[PJM]

=guanophore;

Where do find Paul saying this?

TRY 1st. John 5:16-17

I see nothing in the passage that indicates this either. I think where we differ is that Catholics do not extract doctrines form various verses, so we have no NEED to see this here. We receive our doctrine from the Apostles. For us, the NT reflects the Christian faith, but is not the Source of it. Our faith comes from Christ. It is reflected in the New Testament because the NT was written by, for, and about Catholics.

.** 1John.1 Verses 8 to 10:** "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

** 1John.5 Verses 16 to 17**"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. ** There is sin which is mortal**; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, ** but there is sin which is not mortal. **

** John.20 Verses 20 to 23**]" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. ** Jesus said to them ** again, “Peace be with you. ** As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” ** And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Not at all. And honestly, I can’t think of anywhere that Paul addresses this subject.

**?? “Rom. 3: 2]” **For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. [23] since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"…**Rom. 6:23 “23] **For the wages of sin is death,[SPIRITUAL] but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

It would be an error to assume that, because something is not written in Scripture, it did not happen. In truth, we don’t know how the early church prayed for these unfortunate people. However, if God revealed to Peter that these two committed the unforgivable sin, then he would not pray for them. Mourn, perhaps, but not go against the will of God.

It certainly was a practice WELL ESTABLISHED in the OT, and no reason to belief it was discontinued.

Eph. 2: 19.” So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,”

Heb. 12: 1 “Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, [SAINTS in heaven] let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.”

** Heb. 13: 7** “Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith”

Rev.5: 8 “And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; “

2 Mac. 12: 39 –45 “On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchres of their fathers. Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; ***and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” ***

You keep making reference to a sin which "leads to " death. The effect of mortal sin is immediate. It is deadly. It does tend to lead to more death, but it is clear from the passage about Ananias and Sapphira that there was no “leading” going on. They were already there at the door of death, and people carried them out… The sins result in death. They are mortal. They kill the life of the Spirit in one. It is not like there is a process (“leads to”) to get there. The effect is immediate.

And thus the term “Mortal” as it Mortally wounded. Mortal sin completely severs our personal relationship with Christ. This is an IMMEDIATE responce to Mortal sin. The UNION is NOT reistablised until and unless the MS is Confessed and Forgiven. [Jn.20:19-23].

LISTEN TO GRANNY she knows what shes talkiing about:thumbsup:

 

[guanophore]

TRY 1st. John 5:16-17

LISTEN TO GRANNY she knows what shes talkiing about:thumbsup:

Thanks for the great post, but you are preaching to the choir. The purpose of my post was to point out that passages were being attributed to Paul that were not written by Paul.

This is a common mistake of Paulists. They derive their doctrines primarily from reading Paul, and somehow cannot comprehend that other relevant passages have a context other than Paul.

 

[1voice]

Thanks for the great post, but you are preaching to the choir. The purpose of my post was to point out that passages were being attributed to Paul that were not written by Paul.

This is a common mistake of Paulists. They derive their doctrines primarily from reading Paul, and somehow cannot comprehend that other relevant passages have a context other than Paul.

Im not a 'Paulist" … I’ve never heard the term before… I simply made an error of attribution.
It is interesting to know that there is a box for that.

 

[1voice]

The problem with that is, 1voice, the apostles did not teach that red is blue.

To be honest … when you guys play tag team going down these theological rabbit trails … I lose track of your logic … and very soon cant remember what the original conversation was about … and when I try to retrace … I just get confused.
Thats one of the reasons I gave up on Catholicism…
The Bible is crystal clear. You guys are confusing.

I have read the manual … followed the instructions … and gotten healed of several major medical problems… and prayed for others with the exact same results.

I have seen people with addictions, deep emotional scars and major sin in their lives … transformed by the power in God’s word in the Bible … and the love and nurturing of caring Church family.

The Bible says … Follow the instructions… you will know the truth … and the truth will set you free … simple and clear .

 

[ddarko]

To be honest … when you guys play tag team going down these theological rabbit trails … I lose track of your logic … and very soon cant remember what the original conversation was about … and when I try to retrace … I just get confused.
Thats one of the reasons I gave up on Catholicism…
The Bible is crystal clear. You guys are confusing.

I have read the manual … followed the instructions … and gotten healed of several major medical problems… and prayed for others with the exact same results.

I have seen people with addictions, deep emotional scars and major sin in their lives … transformed by the power in God’s word in the Bible … and the love and nurturing of caring Church family.

The Bible says … Follow the instructions… you will know the truth … and the truth will set you free … simple and clear .

Hey,

I don’t mean to jump in here but I think you need to look at your foundation for your faith.

Right now you are accusing each other of theological inconsistency. But I really don’t see any rationale in the Protestant position to even believe the Bible to begin with.

So I think the root of the debate is not Faith vs. Works or Theological issue X vs. Y.

The issue is in first obtaining the right religion to have faith in. Then the correct theology follows. So what is your reason to believe in Reformed Christianity? What is your authority to claim that the Bible is the word of God? Please keep in mind that a biblical verse cannot confirm that the Bible is the word of God. I can just as well include that verse in a book I write, would that make it the word of God? So why exactly do you believe the Bible is the word of God?

God Bless

 

[PRmerger]

The Bible is crystal clear. You guys are confusing.

If “the Bible is crystal clear”, can you please address why there are tens of thousand of Christian denominations, each reading this same Bible, and each coming to completely different understandings of this “crystal clear” text?

You guys can’t even agree on what 1 Peter 3:21 means.

Does Baptism save you? Yes, say the Lutherans. No say the AOG.

Is Baptism a sacrament? Yes say the Episcopalians. No Calvary Chapel.

Must Baptism be done by immersion? Yes say the JWs. No say the Methodists.

Can infants be baptized? Yes say the Presbyterians. No say the Baptists.

How can the Bible be “crystal clear” if there’s a multitude of understandings, just on this one issue?

 

[JonNC]

If “the Bible is crystal clear”, can you please address why there are tens of thousand of Christian denominations, each reading this same Bible, and each coming to completely different understandings of this “crystal clear” text?

You guys can’t even agree on what 1 Peter 3:21 means.

Does Baptism save you? Yes, say the Lutherans. No say the AOG.

Is Baptism a sacrament? Yes say the Episcopalians. No Calvary Chapel.

Must Baptism be done by immersion? Yes say the JWs. No say the Methodists.

Can infants be baptized? Yes say the Presbyterians. No say the Baptists.

How can the Bible be “crystal clear” if there’s a multitude of understandings, just on this one issue?

Does the Bishop of Rome have universal jurisdiction? Yes, says Rome. No, say the Orthodox.

The issue of disagreement regarding the teaching of scripture - and Tradition - extends to all of Christianity.

Jon

 

[PRmerger]

Does the Bishop of Rome have universal jurisdiction? Yes, says Rome. No, say the Orthodox.

Is this a question of doctrine or of discipline, Jon?

The issue of disagreement regarding the teaching of scripture - and Tradition - extends to all of Christianity.

Jon

Absolutely not, friend.

The issue of disagreement regarding the teaching of Scripture and Tradition is an issue of authority.

In the Protestant paradigm one does not need to submit to the authority of anyone, but only his own interpretation of Scripture–and thus we have the tens of thousands of differing understandings of the Good News.

In the Catholic paradigm one must submit to the authority of the Church. And thus we have a single understanding of the Good News.

 

[rinnie]

rinnie,

You cant just say whatever you want and then defend it by saying … Im a Catholic. I mean you can… obviously. You can say red is blue … and believe it with all your heart …

lvoice I never said that. Lets back things up. WHO is the Pilar of all truth?

 

[rinnie]

To be honest … when you guys play tag team going down these theological rabbit trails … I lose track of your logic … and very soon cant remember what the original conversation was about … and when I try to retrace … I just get confused.
Thats one of the reasons I gave up on Catholicism…
The Bible is crystal clear. You guys are confusing.

I have read the manual … followed the instructions … and gotten healed of several major medical problems… and prayed for others with the exact same results.

I have seen people with addictions, deep emotional scars and major sin in their lives … transformed by the power in God’s word in the Bible … and the love and nurturing of caring Church family.

The Bible says … Follow the instructions… you will know the truth … and the truth will set you free … simple and clear .

Hey lvoice. Lets say you are right and the Church is wrong, and you claim the bible is CRYSTAL CLEAR, thats what you said.

Then if the BIBLE is CRYSTAL CLEAR how can I read a scripture and you read a scripture and we both come up with 2 totally different meanings.

If I say to you I just gave birth to my first child, and just held her for the first time thats Crystal clear. But if I say that I just held my child for the first time, thats not Crystal clear, You can assume I gave brith but did I? THat is Tradition and Scripture lvoice. You either have to assume, guess or you go to the SOURCE, THe pilar of all truth. WHO does the Bible CLAIM has this truth?

I bet you anything your own Preacher will say the bible. Whats your answer.

 

[1voice]

Originally Posted by 1voice
To be honest … when you guys play tag team going down these theological rabbit trails … I lose track of your logic … and very soon cant remember what the original conversation was about … and when I try to retrace … I just get confused.
Thats one of the reasons I gave up on Catholicism…
The Bible is crystal clear. You guys are confusing.

I have read the manual … followed the instructions … and gotten healed of several major medical problems… and prayed for others with the exact same results.

I have seen people with addictions, deep emotional scars and major sin in their lives … transformed by the power in God’s word in the Bible … and the love and nurturing of caring Church family.

The Bible says … Follow the instructions… you will know the truth … and the truth will set you free … simple and clear .

Hey,

I don’t mean to jump in here but I think you need to look at your foundation for your faith.

Right now you are accusing each other of theological inconsistency. But I really don’t see any rationale in the Protestant position to even believe the Bible to begin with.

So I think the root of the debate is not Faith vs. Works or Theological issue X vs. Y.

The issue is in first obtaining the right religion to have faith in. Then the correct theology follows. So what is your reason to believe in Reformed Christianity? What is your authority to claim that the Bible is the word of God? Please keep in mind that a biblical verse cannot confirm that the Bible is the word of God. I can just as well include that verse in a book I write, would that make it the word of God? So why exactly do you believe the Bible is the word of God?

God Bless

I’m not accusing anyone. I simply find the theological rabbit trails confusing. I gave up trying to sort them out.

… The Bible is the word of God based on the evidence of God standing behind what he says. I have witnessed solid results … as I pointed out above.
… John the Baptist sent his disciples to Jesus asking … Are you the one … Jesus answered… The blind see … the lame walk … what more evidence do I need?

 

[rinnie]

Originally Posted by 1voice
To be honest … when you guys play tag team going down these theological rabbit trails … I lose track of your logic … and very soon cant remember what the original conversation was about … and when I try to retrace … I just get confused.
Thats one of the reasons I gave up on Catholicism…
The Bible is crystal clear. You guys are confusing.

I have read the manual … followed the instructions … and gotten healed of several major medical problems… and prayed for others with the exact same results.

I have seen people with addictions, deep emotional scars and major sin in their lives … transformed by the power in God’s word in the Bible … and the love and nurturing of caring Church family.

The Bible says … Follow the instructions… you will know the truth … and the truth will set you free … simple and clear .

I’m not accusing anyone. I simply find the theological rabbit trails confusing. I gave up trying to sort them out.

… The Bible is the word of God based on the evidence of God standing behind what he says. I have witnessed solid results … as I pointed out above.
… John the Baptist sent his disciples to Jesus asking … Are you the one … Jesus answered… The blind see … the lame walk … what more evidence do I need?

You need to answer me the question what is the Pilar of ALL TRUTH?