If I am saved by faith alone, why do I need to read the Bible?

[PRmerger]

I still think it’s pretty simple. Maybe God blessed me with lesser intelligence

While what you say is true–paraphrasing St. Augustine, Christianity is simple enough for a child to wade through but deep enough for great theologians to dive into and never reach bottom.

At any rate, we are commanded by Christ to love him with our MIND. Coming here and discussing/dialoguing/debating is the fulfillment of this part of the commandment.

It is a cop-out for any man with an intellect to say, “I don’t have to do anything except say I’m a Christian.”

 

[SteveGC]

Dude, stop talking about circular logic… Last time I check Peter, Paul, Matthew, etc were apostles and disciples.

You over complicate things.

We are saved by the Grace of our Lord.
We hear the word of God and Faith is born and starts to work on us.
We come in obedience to Baptism and wash away our sins and are reborn in Christ Jesus.
We renew our minds with the Word of our Lord.
Faith is a work in progress, it never ends.

Why do we come to Jesus?
He said it Himself, “No one can come to Me, unless he is drawn to me by the Father who sent me” (Recited from memory, feel free to correct)
By God’s Grace we come to Jesus.

You do understand that the entire Bible is about Jesus?

You seem to worry more about the legalities of religion and logic than the Word of God. That does not mean you are to be irresponsible or gullible. However, it is impossible for our human race to rationally explain the Holiness of our Lord.

Drop your salvation checklist and surrender yourself to your faith and let Jesus work in you. And this does not mean I support any other religious denomination, that I agree with what they practice, that this and that… Or you can just go ahead and burn people, that don’t agree with your beliefs, at the stake. Charge them with heresy or whatever… And that does not mean I agree with that either, in fact, I’ll probably try to protect them or you, if they want to burn you at the stake because of your religion beliefs. Unless it is about putting other lives in danger, etc… I think I’ve covered the major disclaimers…

I still think it’s pretty simple. Maybe God blessed me with lesser intelligence

All of your responses are Bible quotes. this is ddarko’s point. He’s wondering why you believe the Bible to be the word of God, and you respond with biblical quotes…and this indeed is circular reasoning. I realize you were responding to the OP, but the conversation occurring at the moment you did that revolved around the reasoning used to verify the Bible is the word of God, and how it should be properly interpreted.

Ddarko is wondering why some use the Bible itself as validation of the fact that it is indeed the word of God. Doubtful that he needs a lesson on how we’re saved and how grace works, but I understand that you probably are just coming into the discussion late and his responses to you were unexpected.

 

[SteveGC]

Name one person in the New Testament that didnt have a first hand supernatural experience before they became a disciple /follower of Jesus.

… Jesus’ desire and ability to manifest thousands of miracles … that made the ruling class look weak and ineffective … and that turned Israel upside down … was the main reason that the Sanhedrin wanted him dead.

It is clear that God wanted everyone to have a personal encounter with his glory and power… It was foundational. It established his authority and kindled unshakable faith.

Do you think that having a first-hand supernatural experience is the way someone becomes a Christian? If so, most Christians in the world (inside and outside of Catholicism) are not valid Christians.

 

[1voice]

Do you think that having a first-hand supernatural experience is the way someone becomes a Christian?

No.
what you read was my response to ddarko’s statement.

ddarko indicated that referring to experiences as evidence was not valid.

I referred to the Bible …
If it was not valid proof of anything … as he believes…then … the mention of such events… over and over by the founders of Christianity… sure took up a lot of needless space.

 

[ddarko]

If you believe that … there is no common ground to even have a conversation.

Your response is a typical way of rejecting that which does not fit your paradigm.

WHAT???

Buddy, you are the one who is irrationally believing in a random book that you happen to come across called the Bible. Now when I ask you how you went from the existence of Jesus to the Bible, you are stuttering and telling me about personal experience.

Am I the one who is suffering from common ground issues? NO. You are. The common ground here is reason. If you abandon reason to arrive at your faith, to talk about Theology afterwards is meaningless.

Theology uses reason. To talk about reason after abandoning reason is pointless.

Conviction of sin and realization of salvation … in real time … IS the Christian message. Paul said … I did not come to you with strong arguments … but with the demonstration of God’s power.

Stop quoting the Bible for crying out loud.

What part of FIRST justifying your faith in the Bible don’t you get?

I can’t say I believe that X = Y because when I assume 2X = 2Y, it turns out to be true. That is a variation of circular logic.

I have personally witnessed the Holy Spirit … in action many, many times … confirming the truth spoken to people hungry for God’s reality … full of conviction …and powerfully persuaded and awakened to God’s presence touching their minds and hearts for the first time. The light comes on for the first time …and they know that they know that they know… The beginning of wisdom … Is fear of the Lord. It is a conscious reaction to a real experience. As real as Paul’s experience on the Damascus road.

STOP READING MORE THAN YOU CAN IN TO YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.

Seriously dude, if I had a personal experience and started having a donkey statue in my backyard and worshiped it, does that make it RATIONAL?

No offense but your argumentation really downgrades Christianity to some irrational superstition. Christianity is NOT superstition or irrational.

So start using REASON. You are all to happy to use reason to do Theology but you don’t even want to face it when it comes to explaining how you arrived at your faith. THAT IS IRRATIONAL.

I have witnessed deep repentance … with tears of sorrow… and then joy … It is an amazing blessing to see God at his best… saving a soul that was bound for an awful future. That does not occur in a vacuum. God does it… and it is incredible to witness.

God does it yes. But it does not tell you that the BIBLE IS REAL, or that YOUR PRAYERS DID IT or anything about Christianity. Muslims claim the same thing. I don’t know where you’ve been living but EVERY religion claims miracles after praying to their God.

All those experiences state is that there is a God that cares and answers prayers. To go from that to Bible is the word of God or the Koran is the word of God is IRRATIONAL.

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

Dude, stop talking about circular logic… Last time I check Peter, Paul, Matthew, etc were apostles and disciples.

You over complicate things.

NO.

Try and understand this.

When you believe that Christ is real, you have to REASON your way to the Bible. You can’t just say Christ is real, so the Bible is true.

Paul was NOT an original Apostle. He was instituted by the original 11. My point to you and all your protestant buddies is why are you so keen to accept teachings of Paul but equally keen to REJECT teaching of Apostles of today?

Please give reason.

Secondly, issues such as circumcision were decided by Apostles. Not the faithful who prayed for personal experience. So why are you following this new standard of personal interpretation? Should you not be listening to the Apostles today?

We are saved by the Grace of our Lord.
We hear the word of God and Faith is born and starts to work on us.
We come in obedience to Baptism and wash away our sins and are reborn in Christ Jesus.
We renew our minds with the Word of our Lord.
Faith is a work in progress, it never ends.

Why do we come to Jesus?
He said it Himself, “No one can come to Me, unless he is drawn to me by the Father who sent me” (Recited from memory, feel free to correct)
By God’s Grace we come to Jesus.

You do understand that the entire Bible is about Jesus?

Do you understand anything that I am saying?

First you need to go from Jesus to the Bible. The only link is through the idea that “one must accept teachings of the Apostles”.

Then the question becomes as to why Protestants are going around doing their own personal thing and rejecting the Apostles today in the Catholic Church?

Do you get what I am saying?

You seem to worry more about the legalities of religion and logic than the Word of God. That does not mean you are to be irresponsible or gullible. However, it is impossible for our human race to rationally explain the Holiness of our Lord.

I am not asking you to explain the rationale behind the holiness of our lord. What on earth are you talking about?

I am saying you have to explain how you arrive at your faith. If you make irrational jumps then your faith is illogical.

To explain more clearly, this is what I mean.

Let us say I have a personal experience and now I know Jesus is real. But then if I go and worship the works of William Shakespeare as the word of God THAT IS IRRATIONAL. Why? It does not logically follow from the existence of Jesus that I must believe the works of Shakespeare are divinely inspired.

So same with the Bible. The only way to make the connection between the Bible and Jesus is through the idea that one gives assent to the teachings of the Apostles. Once you realize that, it should be apparent to you why Protestantism was such big logical mistake.

Drop your salvation checklist and surrender yourself to your faith and let Jesus work in you. And this does not mean I support any other religious denomination, that I agree with what they practice, that this and that… Or you can just go ahead and burn people, that don’t agree with your beliefs, at the stake. Charge them with heresy or whatever… And that does not mean I agree with that either, in fact, I’ll probably try to protect them or you, if they want to burn you at the stake because of your religion beliefs. Unless it is about putting other lives in danger, etc… I think I’ve covered the major disclaimers…

I still think it’s pretty simple. Maybe God blessed me with lesser intelligence

Trust me, God blessed you with intelligence. You are trying pretty hard to be lazy and ignore it.

Don’t fall in to the trap. God left behind something more than a Bible for you. But if you are being lazy and not figuring out what else he left behind for you to clearly understand what he wanted to teach, then that is your own FAULT.

God Bless

 

[1voice]

STOP READING MORE THAN YOU CAN IN TO YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.

Personal experience is the reason that the Sanhedrin fiercely accused the man that was blind … whose sight was restored by Jesus.

If it had so little value … why put the story in a book as important as the WORD OF GOD!!!

 

[ddarko]

Personal experience is the reason that the Sanhedrin fiercely accused the man that was blind … whose sight was restored by Jesus.

AGAINNN with the BIBLE.

FIRST tell me how you go from Personal Experience to the Bible. Stop telling me QUOTES form the Bible as answers because it shows NOTHING on how you arrived at the Bible.

Do you honestly not understand what I am saying? If you don’t we can concentrate on that one issue first.

God Bless

 

[1voice]

AGAINNN with the BIBLE.

FIRST tell me how you go from Personal Experience to the Bible. Stop telling me QUOTES form the Bible as answers because it shows NOTHING on how you arrived at the Bible.

Do you honestly not understand what I am saying? If you don’t we can concentrate on that one issue first.

God Bless

No one comes to the Father unless the Spirit draws him/her.

 

[ddarko]

No one comes to the Father unless the Spirit draws him/her.

Ok, now you are repeating Bible quotes. Did you not read what I posted? The above statement is an empty statement if you can’t give any REASON to suggest that the Bible is the word of God.

Let’s make this even more simpler.

Do you OR do you NOT realize that to go from Personal Experience of Jesus/God/Holy Spirit to the belief that the Bible is true, one needs to accept the teaching authority of the Apostles?

God Bless

 

[guanophore]

Does the Bishop of Rome have universal jurisdiction? Yes, says Rome. No, say the Orthodox.

How can one have the responsibility to care for and feed a flock over which one has no jurisdiction?

Jesus did not say "you are to care and feed the flock only in this region.

On the contrary, Jesus taught that there is one shepherd, and one flock.

The issue of disagreement regarding the teaching of scripture - and Tradition - extends to all of Christianity.

Jon

Yes, I agree. If the successor of Peter does have jurisdiciton, then it extends to those who reject it, and those who do not know about it.

 

[guanophore]

Originally Posted by 1voice
To be honest … when you guys play tag team going down these theological rabbit trails … I lose track of your logic … and very soon cant remember what the original conversation was about … and when I try to retrace … I just get confused.
Thats one of the reasons I gave up on Catholicism…
The Bible is crystal clear. You guys are confusing.

I have read the manual … followed the instructions … and gotten healed of several major medical problems… and prayed for others with the exact same results.

I have seen people with addictions, deep emotional scars and major sin in their lives … transformed by the power in God’s word in the Bible … and the love and nurturing of caring Church family.

The Bible says … Follow the instructions… you will know the truth … and the truth will set you free … simple and clear .

I’m not accusing anyone. I simply find the theological rabbit trails confusing. I gave up trying to sort them out.

… The Bible is the word of God based on the evidence of God standing behind what he says. I have witnessed solid results … as I pointed out above.
… John the Baptist sent his disciples to Jesus asking … Are you the one … Jesus answered… The blind see … the lame walk … what more evidence do I need?

This being the case, one has to wonder, this being the case, why your are on CAF?

It is a puzzle why one would want to expose themselves to confusing “rabbit trails”. If one is happy with a truncated version of the gospel,why would one come to a place where the fullness is discussed?

 

[1voice]

Ok, now you are repeating Bible quotes. Did you not read what I posted? The above statement is an empty statement if you can’t give any REASON to suggest that the Bible is the word of God.

Let’s make this even more simpler.

Do you OR do you NOT realize that to go from Personal Experience of Jesus/God/Holy Spirit to the belief that the Bible is true, one needs to accept the teaching authority of the Apostles?

God Bless

I accept the various giftings in any Christian that is anointed and gifted for the building up of the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit … as Pope Benedict clearly stated …
“Protestantism has made an important contribution to the realization of Christian faith, fulfilling a positive function in the development of the Christian message and, above all, often giving rise to a sincere and profound faith in the individual non-Catholic Christian”

 

[guanophore]

I was HOPING to be supportive of what you shared so well,

God Bless,
Pat

You always are.

 

[JonNC]

=guanophore;8253564]How can one have the responsibility to care for and feed a flock over which one has no jurisdiction?

Jesus did not say "you are to care and feed the flock only in this region.

On the contrary, Jesus taught that there is one shepherd, and one flock.

Hi guan,
I guess, in large measure, it depends on what that jurisdiction entails, how it is viewed by the other patriarchs, nad how it was practiced in the early Church.

Yes, I agree. If the successor of Peter does have jurisdiciton, then it extends to those who reject it, and those who do not know about it.

Certainly in the West he has jurisdiction, and I would not argue, necessarily, with your assertion. And in fact, surely the recent ones, since Vatican II, have acted like the servants Christ called His Apostles to be.

Jon

 

[guanophore]

I realize that you believe that God only operates through Catholicism.

No, 1, this is a falsehood. It is not what the Catholic Church believes or teaches.

**

If you want to believe that everything from God filters through the RCC … and that the Roman Catholic Church, because of its belief that Papal/ Apostolic succession, gives it the right to assume all of your assertions … that is your right.**

We have no “right” to assume, or assert anything. The CC is not “Roman”, 1voice.

We have a duty to preserve what was handed down to us through the Apostles - that is that Jesus only founded ONE CHURCH and there is only ONE FAITH. That ONE FAITH espoused and taught by those who were in the upper room, subsists in Catholicism.

Other ecclesial communities such as the one you describe enjoy the working of the HS through the ONE CHURCH founded by Christ.

1voice:

I also realize that my experience is no proof in your mind. Thats fine. Im not trying to convince you.

So, why are you here?

God said … I will write my laws on their hearts…
I believe that the Holy Spirit creates righteousness without requiring the constraint of any particular denomination
… "In the last days I will pour out of my spirit on all flesh.
'the kingdom of God is righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Spirit… Against this … there is no law.

I can understand why people do not want to be “constrained” by right doctrine, or by authorities appointed over them by Christ. However, these “constraints” were placed to protect the flock, not to limit it.

 

[1voice]

This being the case, one has to wonder, this being the case, why your are on CAF?

It is a puzzle why one would want to expose themselves to confusing “rabbit trails”. If one is happy with a truncated version of the gospel,why would one come to a place where the fullness is discussed?

“Fullness” … is your point of view

or … what is the purpose of the non Catholic Religions Forum?

If Im not convinced … by confusing lines of theological logic … I should not engage at all?

 

[guanophore]

The entire Christian Faith is based on personal experience.

This is one of the most frightening and dangerous aspects of Modern American Evangelicalism. I think it is also the source of much of the fragmentation.

 

[guanophore]

"Fullness" ... is your point of view

No, actually, it is what the Apostles believed and taught. I have chosen to accept it, and conformed my point of view to it. This is what it means to receive Apostolic Teaching.

 or ... what is the purpose of the non Catholic Religions Forum?

No, I asked what is YOUR purpose for coming here. You have said that you don’t need anything but Scripture, and you have said that you don’t like talking theology. You have said that you are not here to convince anyone. One has to wonder, why are you here?

If Im not convinced ... by confusing lines of theological logic ... I should not engage at all?

It has nothing to do with your inability to reson logically, or to discuss theology. It has to do with your statements of not being interested.

 

[ddarko]

I accept the various giftings in any Christian that is anointed and gifted for the building up of the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit … as Pope Benedict clearly stated …
“Protestantism has made an important contribution to the realization of Christian faith, fulfilling a positive function in the development of the Christian message and, above all, often giving rise to a sincere and profound faith in the individual non-Catholic Christian”

Please ANSWER THE QUESTION.

Is it not true that in the early church, though there were at least 500 converts from Pentecost, ONLY the Apostles decided on matters if teaching? Take the Circumcision example.

So right now, you are not even historically accurate. You are being irrational in assuming that EVERYONE can decide on teaching WITH AUTHORITY.

As for Pope Benedict’s claim, he is not infallible with respect to his personal opinion on protestantism. Protestantism is grossly irrational.

Which you btw are not doing a good job in defending against. So whats the deal here?

Are you going to come down to REASON or are you going to jump around and hide behind biblical quotes and personal opinion quotes by Popes and Bishops?

God Bless