D
ddarko
Guest
Please sit back and ask yourself what you are doing here.
Do you want the truth? Or do you want to make witty posts?
If it’s the last, just let us know so that we can go and get some sleep.
God Bless
If I am saved by faith alone, why do I need to read the Bible?
- Status
Do you want the truth? Or do you want to make witty posts?
If it’s the last, just let us know so that we can go and get some sleep.
God Bless
1
1voice
Guest
Ok … Where it says ‘Roman Pontiffs’ below … insert your expanded definition of RCC leadership … with the same resulting conclusion.Ok work with me here. You are missing a bit of logical analysis.
First, if you are saying Iranaeus is saying that he has no authority, then his claim it-self is undermined.
Second, Iranaeus is one individual speaking. You don’t listen to one Bishop. Go back to the Circumcision example. Apostles had different views. The matter was decided TOGETHER.
NOT individually.
So that was a good try, but shows that you are still not fully understanding what I am telling you. It’s not about the Pope, its not about one Bishop. IT IS ABOUT THE COLLECTION OF BISHOPS.
God Bless
Originally Posted by 1voice
I said that it applies within the RCC.
“Roman Pontiffs” never exercised jurisdiction (“supreme power,” according to Vatican I, session 3, 1870) over the whole Church.
If the Church has survived and thrived without universal papal jurisdiction for so many centuries, what makes it necessary today?
G
guanophore
Guest
In this case, ignorance appears to be quite bliss.NO. what is a bit moronic here is that I see a lot of Protestants who are arguing about the LOGIC of Catholic Theology and THEIR OWN THEOLOGY while having an irrational foundation that they didn’t put 2 cents of thought in to.
How is that suppossed to make a Catholic feel?
If they had instead DONE their HOMEWORK in analyzing the foundations for their faith they would see that THEY HAVE NO OTHER OPTION than to be Catholic. But quiet irritatingly, they keep spitting out Biblical quote after quote
I think the source of the biggest FAITH CRISIS of the 21st century is the abandonment of reason. Thanks to that we have thriving Protestantism and Atheism.
God Bless
D
ddarko
Guest
Ok so now your argument is that the Church has survived, so we don’t need the Apostles?
Again a misunderstanding.
The Apostles are their to TEACH with authority.
Right now, you have one view of salvation for an example. FAITH alone. Catholics have one view, FAITH and WORKS. Who is right?
You turn to … APOSTLES.
So the Apostles are still there and will always be there to GUIDE the Church on matters of FAITH and MORALS.
Do you see what I am saying? So the Church is there today because it needs to be there. Clearly, the fact that we are having this discussion here and you refusing to believe FAITH and WORKS are both important for salvation PROVES the need for someone with Authority to decide.
What we have here is something just like the circumcision debate. Except instead of listening to the Apostles, you are suggesting we all say a personal prayer and interpret Scripture our own way.
God Bless
1
1voice
Guest
So let me get this straight … Werent you the one that approached me?Please sit back and ask yourself what you are doing here.
Do you want the truth? Or do you want to make witty posts?
If it’s the last, just let us know so that we can go and get some sleep.
God Bless
ddarko, If my personality irritates you … I promise … I wont sit in the pew next to you .
P
PRmerger
Guest
Huh?
D
ddarko
Guest
I approached you and you ran away.So let me get this straight … Werent you the one that approached me?
ddarko, If my personality irritates you … I promise … I wont sit in the pew next to you .
I just want you to stop running. Stop saying random stuff. Start thinking.
Right now you are debating us as if you know your position is true even though you have no reasons to defend it with.
So I am telling you to step down. Start from scratch. Follow where reason takes you.
You got the existence of the Holy Trinity nailed down by personal experience. Start from their and make your way forward.
When you are interested in doing so, let us know. Otherwise I don’t have time to go the merry-go-round with you.
God Bless
G
guanophore
Guest
The rampant fragmentation of the Church caused by the heresy of Sola Scriptura has brought the need for the Petrine gifts into sharp focus.
If it was not necessary for God’s flock to have someone visible to be responsible for the care and feeding, then Jesus would not have wasted HIs breath appointing Peter to the task. If the HS did not want this ministry continued, then He would have communicated this to the Church.
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Many of the envangelizing Protestants have no catechism. The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church catechizes and as you are aware there is a history of catechumens. In other words you are taught about what you are about to commit to before you commit.
Protestant theology is not necessarily written down formally for the novice Protestant. The Protestant does this.
Get Saved, the sheep hear my voice, how can you believe if you have not heard, preach and then confess. Poof you are a Protestant. You are told to get a bible, usually start with the Gospel of John, get into a bible study and find a bible believing Protestant church.
You need to read a bible to learn the theology. You are taught the theology as you go piecemeal. It is taught at every function.
Your life becomes Sunday Service, Bible study. Then it becomes Sunday Service, Bible Study and Wednesday at the Church for Church Service. Then it becomes Sunday, Wednesday and Friday functions and Bible study. Your life becomes encompassed by the Church as your lifeline to learn the theology and keep you away from anyone that does not think or believe like you.
They don’t tell you that the theology is Regeneration, Justification and for many Sanctification. You learn the Sanctification later.
Protestants don’t teach, OK. We are this Protestant Christian group and here is what we believe. We are going to preach, because we believe you have to hear to believe, you have to confess to accept Jesus. You are going to get saved. We believe that all the other stuff will come later but there is this thing called Sanctification. Oh, yeah and as we teach you our stuff, we are going to compare and contrast how everyone else is wrong. We will teach you about the cults and the non-christian groups, etc. So before you consider getting saved, we want you to study for about 6 months to a year before you get involved in this committment. That never happens.
This is why they need to read the bible. This information was abstracted by attending too many Protestant functions out of courtesy.
1
1voice
Guest
You rejected my reference to experience … as documented in the New Testament … so I accommodated.I approached you and you ran away.
I just want you to stop running. Stop saying random stuff. Start thinking.
Right now you are debating us as if you know your position is true even though you have no reasons to defend it with.
So I am telling you to step down. Start from scratch. Follow where reason takes you.
You got the existence of the Holy Trinity nailed down by personal experience. Start from their and make your way forward.
When you are interested in doing so, let us know. Otherwise I don’t have time to go the merry-go-round with you.
God Bless
You rejected my reference to Scripture … so I stopped.
You rejected my reference to current Papal writing …
You rejected my reference to Papal authority as being inaccurate… so I incorporated your expanded definition of authority … which resulted in no response from you.
You rejected my reference to the writing of the early church father…
You ignored my reference to the fact that the RCC has never had universal jurisdiction of the whole Church …
if my responses dont fit your paradigm … I cant help that … they are crystal clear and direct in mine.
1
1voice
Guest
I have a varied experience with what you would classify as protestant churches … spanning 40 years… none of them fit the description that you describe above
this is what the standard is…
“We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith”
Irenaeus, in the second century,
S
SteveGC
Guest
So, you believe Irenaeus here. Ok. Do you also believe him here:…
Irenaeus
“It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about” (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).
“But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul—that church which has the tradition and the faith with which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world. And it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (ibid., 3:3:2).
“Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time” (ibid., 3:3:4).
“Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth, so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. . . . For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient churches with which the apostles held constant conversation, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question?” (ibid., 3:4:1).
“*t is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church—those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the infallible charism of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth” (ibid., 4:26:2).
“The true knowledge is the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient organization of the Church throughout the whole world, and the manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which succession the bishops have handed down the Church which is found everywhere” (ibid., 4:33:8). *
1
1voice
Guest
I said that my position was based on experience. You rejected that. I searched the scriptures that you tell me to stop quoting … out of desperation … I found the way, the truth and the life.
My experience includes being healed of spinal arthritis and scoliosis … with all of the excruciating pain that goes along with that. the doctor said I would probably end up in a wheel chair
… migrane headaches that crippled me for years … blinding sinus headaches … allergies that made me feel like I had the flu all the time.
Back injury that made it nearly impossible to get out of bed … for years… the doctor said … get used to it … its gone.
I am perfectly healthy …
I have prayed for people that were instantly healed of cancer, broken back … with tests to prove it that confounded the doctors. My sister had a deformed foot … popped into perfect shape in the midst of prayer to my Savior. I prayed … and then watched a little girl with cerebral palsy grow muscle in her legs then … straighten her atrophied legs for the first time in her 7 years of life … and begin to walk. I have prayed to my savior for many migraines and heard the person say … its gone… I have prayed for cataracts that cleared up on the spot… there are many more (true) miraculous stories that I could relate…
I realize that none of the above will put a dent in your paradigm … or your desire to fix me … but it is only a small part of the lifestyle that the Holy Spirit has given me …
The proof is in the pudding as they say…
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
I haven’t read all of the responses here yet but I believe that you can expect to get a semantically driven argument from our Protestant friends on this one. I agree with your exegesis and would add, why get baptized, married or have a burial ceremony and so on?.. Sola Fide isn’t Biblically or Traditionally correct and it doesn’t make any sense either…
Let the semantics begin…
.
D
ddarko
Guest
This is why I keep telling you to take your personal experience for what it is.
Think about it. If I had a personal experience after praying to God, then I went and worshiped the books of Shakespeare as the word of God, that is stupid right?
So from personal experience, one needs to take a rational path to the next step. Personal experience merely gives you REASON to seek the next step.
You also have to keep in mind that there are others in other religions who claim the same thing you do. Do you think that there God/s are true too?
Of course. I am not denying the above is possible. I am merely pointing out that to go from that to the next step, one must use reason.
In your case you prayed to Jesus, he answered. All that tells you is that Jesus loves you and listens to your prayers.
So now you have to use reason to find him. You can’t just pick a book that talks about him. The Koran talks about him too.
What you need to do is use reason to find what Christ taught. Then the natural thing to do is to listen to the Apostles.
If personal experience of Christ tells us everything, then Jesus did not have to teach or tell his Apostles to teach. He could have just gone around ONLY doing miracles. BUT, instead he also taught and commanded his Disciples to TEACH as well.
The Holy Spirit has given you so much motivation to seek the truth. Instead you have chosen to jump irrationally to the Bible.
The good news is that as a result you have somethings right. It’s better off than you picking the Koran.
The bad news is that since you missed the intermediate steps, you have missed the need to believe in Tradition and Authority of the Apostles.
So I am honestly not attacking you here, I am just telling you what you’ve missed. You can’t get back what you missed by looking at Scripture either. Because Scripture comes from those very things you missed. This is why you need to go back to that personal experience, and then truly ask yourself, how do I go from my personal experience to the Bible. If you honestly do that, you will find something more complete.
God didn’t give you all this to end up half way with a book. He gave you more. If all he wanted to give you was a book, Christ would have told his disciples to write down everything he said. As you can see, a book is not sufficient either. You have one view, I have one view, the Protestant Joe down the road has another view. Whose to say who is right? Whose to say they are all right?
So please think about this. If you don’t want to discuss it publicly, send me a PM.
God Bless
C
CopticChristian
Guest
My experience spans at least the equivalent of yours. I did not say all, I said most, I did create a framework. It is difficult to make a one size fits all. So that I may understand your response help me understand from your perspective what you find in my positing unacceptable so that I can learn. I have a framework that I am willing to modify. This framework came from experience, reading, asking and so I am asking you.
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Miracles are ever present. Lourdes has a record of miracles.
1
1voice
Guest
No one comes to the Father unless the Holy Spirit draws him/her.
The Scriptures are inspired by the HS.
The HS is more than able to keep us from falling and present us unstained at God’s glorious throne … at the same time free will is never removed from the equasion … we all have the same ability to make choices that Adam had…
I have been associated with what you would classify as ‘Protestants’ for over 4 decades … I never met even one that believed you can repent / get saved … and then skate. ‘Faith alone’ … means total dependence on the promises of God written down in the Scripture (Sola Scriptura) beginning with personal repentance and renouncing the old life … right on through to walking the streets of gold.
D
ddarko
Guest
But if you were starting from your personal Experience, you don’t know that the above is true.
You have to come step by step my friend. You are missing a lot of steps right now and as a result you are missing everything other than Scripture. AND THERE IS A LOT more important things that go hand to hand with Scripture.
The above is once again Theological exegesis. To perform theological exegesis, you need the complete set of truths. You can’t start off with just the Bible.
But again, you don’t see the complete set because you are missing the steps. Hence my appeal to you to start from your personal experience and make your way forward.
Again, this is theological exegesis. You are just coming up with a logically consistent interpretation to fit the truths you know. There are many possible interpretations like this.
Remember the conspiracy theorist friend you told me about? The problem with him is that he has discarded many other truths which are essential to form his theory. If he took all the truths in to consideration, considered what is TRUTH, he would know that his theory is false.
So you have got to stop doing what he is doing.
Btw, don’t forget POST #394
God Bless
1
1voice
Guest
Lourdes … if I remember correctly, was a call to repentance … … Miracles were a sign that confirmed Gods word to those who came to receive the truth and the grace to believe and truly repent.
The miracles in my life are a confirmation of his word as well. I never had a chance to go to Lourdes … that frustrated me … but it spurred me to search the scriptures with a fine tooth comb and discover what they contained … I found life. and God has shown that he is ‘no respecter of persons’ … he gives freely to ‘whosoever will’
These signs will follow you … You will pray for the sick … and they will be healed.
- Status