If I am saved by faith alone, why do I need to read the Bible?

[CopticChristian]

Originally Posted by 1voice
I have come to the conclusion that the claiming of complete jurisdiction of the truth … based on a spurious claim to physical lineage just doesnt hold up to inspection. … No offense.

John the Baptist knocked down that argument a long time ago…

I know this is off the subject … but here goes… Your premise is that within Catholicism alone … ‘The lineage is not merely physical, it is spiritual, doctrinal, theological, sacramental, historical.’
Given that premise … here is a real world … where the rubber meets the road example …
… What is the missing ingredient that caused over 50% of Catholics to vote for the man that had one of the strongest pro abortion/ pro death to unborn children … stances among our US Gov’t leaders. I realize that there were other issues involved in the decision … but it seems that for the majority of Catholics … the Ted Kennedy / Nancy Pelosi school if Catholicism rules… From what I remember reading back then … Without the Catholic vote … This current President would most likely not have gotten elected. Catholics voted for Mr. Obama over Mr. McCain by a nine-point margin - 54 percent versus 45 percent - That … is a landslide.
When people such as yourself speak with confidence about your value system being the only one that stands the test of time … and then I see the leadership that system produces … I … well … You get what I mean? Its really … really confusing.

Conversely … 2008 - evangelicals: 74% - McCain 25% - Obama Margin: McCain +49%

I have heard things like … Well he talked a good game … and he seemed like the right choice overall … but where it counted … the evangelicals were more than able to see the handwriting on the wall … Since he took office … I have read and heard that Catholic doctors and nurses and hospitals have come under tremendous political/regulatory pressure to provide abortions … or lose their license.
… Jesus said … By their fruit you will know them … am I supposed to ignore the fact that my children can be strongly influenced to become wishy washy on the right to life issue if I encourage them to absorb those values and emulate the recent political leadership within the Catholic faith … and, by extension, the results that those values have produced ?

You have made the assumption that Catholics are perfect and all are catechized to the maximum and all are fully obedient. What is missing is that there are those that as Paul says are in the Covenant but not of the Covenant. Nothing is new today that was not happening yesterday. You cannot judge the Church by it’s defecient members. Humanity is defecient and we do not condemn humanity because of one man Jesus who provided us the opportunity to be Children of God. The world is insane however there are those that are in the world that are sane. The perfection you look for is not to be found by judging voting or one man’s actions. Sometimes when you look at the glass that is half empty you forget that it is half full. We could dwell on the imperfections of man and what is new. On our own we can do nothing. We might look to see what it is that God has done with the Church. The Old Covenant was preserved in spite of its stiff necked people, in spite of the grumbling, murdering, lying, adultery and the like. Has God abandoned His people, by no means and the same can be said of the New Covenant. We sometimes remain stiff necked, wandering, complaining, lying and yet God gave to the Church the utterances of Scripture and He Curses who He will curse and He blesses who He will bless. The Church is on a Journey and you can be within it or not. There is much wonder it what you do not see, insofar as all I see you doing is examing the imperfections of the humanity and not the divinity that lies within.

Paul saw what he saw as scales fell from his eyes. Your eyes, my eyes, our eyes, may be scaled too.

 

[1voice]

You have made the assumption that Catholics are perfect and all are catechized to the maximum and all are fully obedient. What is missing is that there are those that as Paul says are in the Covenant but not of the Covenant. Nothing is new today that was not happening yesterday. You cannot judge the Church by it’s defecient members. Humanity is defecient and we do not condemn humanity because of one man Jesus who provided us the opportunity to be Children of God. The world is insane however there are those that are in the world that are sane. The perfection you look for is not to be found by judging voting or one man’s actions. Sometimes when you look at the glass that is half empty you forget that it is half full. We could dwell on the imperfections of man and what is new. On our own we can do nothing. We might look to see what it is that God has done with the Church. The Old Covenant was preserved in spite of its stiff necked people, in spite of the grumbling, murdering, lying, adultery and the like. Has God abandoned His people, by no means and the same can be said of the New Covenant. We sometimes remain stiff necked, wandering, complaining, lying and yet God gave to the Church the utterances of Scripture and He Curses who He will curse and He blesses who He will bless. The Church is on a Journey and you can be within it or not. There is much wonder it what you do not see, insofar as all I see you doing is examing the imperfections of the humanity and not the divinity that lies within.

Paul saw what he saw as scales fell from his eyes. Your eyes, my eyes, our eyes, may be scaled too.

I understand that people are not perfect. The point I am making is that …

If the following claim is true …

---

Originally Posted by SteveGC:
The lineage is not merely physical, it is spiritual, doctrinal, theological, sacramental, historical.

---

… and …

Evangelical Christians do not have the relationship with God that comes from all that is associated with that exclusive lineage described above.

Then …
… Why is it that 74% of Evangelicals make a stand where it really counts … Know what is right to do … and do it.
… and 54% 0f those who have access to all of the truth … use their God given right to vote … to vote for the death of unborn children … People here are attempting to establish logic as the standard of discussion … well … It should take very little thought or discussion to convince my Catholic friends that you just dont vote for genocide … yet they do so in huge numbers … enough so to swing an election … when the loser said that he was pro life… If logic is the standard for Catholic faith … more than half of voting Catholics are not even able to reason clearly where the most serious life and death issues are concerned.

Based on that one issue alone … it stands to reason that Evangelicals are able to hear the truth … live the truth … and see the difference between good and evil … and choose correctly. … That does not happen in a weak spiritual environment. The anti Christian / anti Life message is relentless … It takes wisdom and courage to stand against that antiChristian onslaught that is so prevalent in this society.

 

[mwok]

It’s the Catholic Church that has always condemned abortion, even before this country was established. However, because we are free to choose whether to accept truth and live it or to deny it, there are those that claim to be one thing and live another. As a Catholic I was appalled at how many claiming to be Catholic voted for a pro-choice candidate, but I didn’t discredit the Church. Just that there are a lot of people who put their own priorities above Gods, as it is to be human, which is why we need grace for the strength to live up to Gods standards. And of course, if grace is offered to you you have to actively accept that grace. Just as if you were dehydrating and God offered you a glass of water, you have to reach out for the water and drink it in order for the water to save you.

 

[SteveGC]

I understand that people are not perfect. The point I am making is that …

If the following claim is true …

---

Originally Posted by SteveGC:
The lineage is not merely physical, it is spiritual, doctrinal, theological, sacramental, historical.

---

… and …

Evangelical Christians do not have the relationship with God that comes from all that is associated with that exclusive lineage described above.

Then …
… Why is it that 74% of Evangelicals make a stand where it really counts … Know what is right to do … and do it.
… and 54% 0f those who have access to all of the truth … use their God given right to vote … to vote for the death of unborn children … People here are attempting to establish logic as the standard of discussion … well … It should take very little thought or discussion to convince my Catholic friends that you just dont vote for genocide … yet they do so in huge numbers … enough so to swing an election … when the loser said that he was pro life… If logic is the standard for Catholic faith … more than half of voting Catholics are not even able to reason clearly where the most serious life and death issues are concerned.

Based on that one issue alone … it stands to reason that Evangelicals are able to hear the truth … live the truth … and see the difference between good and evil … and choose correctly. … That does not happen in a weak spiritual environment. The anti Christian / anti Life message is relentless … It takes wisdom and courage to stand against that antiChristian onslaught that is so prevalent in this society.

That the Catholic Church is Christ’s choice to be the preserver and safeguard of revealed Truth does not necessarily (nor by default) make the Church’s members more righteous and holy than non members. But if you want to know why your statistics say what they say, I’ll tell you…

The Catholics that voted for Obama did so against the prevailing guidance of The Church. Because the Church cannot twist the arm of Her members, walk into the voting booth with them, and ensure they cast their vote for someone who does not promote a culture of death, members who have decided to continue to label themselves “Catholic” and oppose Her guidance, obviously retain free will to do as they please. This shows up as the “Catholic” vote because you indeed can be Catholic and not Catholic at the same time. In one sense, being baptized into the Church makes one a lifelong Catholic…but baptism does not ensure the existence of an obedient and loyal Catholic. That’s a person’s choice, and your statistic shows you one small example of what happens when the wrong choices are made.

Surely you’ve heard that the Catholic Church is not a hotel for saints…it is a hospital for sinners.

And to judge the primacy that the seat of Peter in Rome has retained due to Christ’s proclamation, based on the voting pattern of Catholic’s in an election, reveals a lack of understanding of why it is important to explore Christianity before the Reformation, before Bibles were in the hands of the population, before the Bible was even officially canonized. How much history of all this do you know?

And all that aside, I wonder…do you keep statistics of the actions of all Evangelicals over the course of history, 1voice? I’d think it only fair of you to show us how a vast majority of those who would label themselves as Evangelicals on Gallup polls have made many more “correct” and “righteous” choices than Catholics have over time. Or is your whole argument about Christ’s appointed authority based on the 2008 election?

 

[CopticChristian]

I understand that people are not perfect. The point I am making is that …

If the following claim is true …

---

Originally Posted by SteveGC:
The lineage is not merely physical, it is spiritual, doctrinal, theological, sacramental, historical.

---

… and …

Evangelical Christians do not have the relationship with God that comes from all that is associated with that exclusive lineage described above.

Then …
… Why is it that 74% of Evangelicals make a stand where it really counts … Know what is right to do … and do it.
… and 54% 0f those who have access to all of the truth … use their God given right to vote … to vote for the death of unborn children … People here are attempting to establish logic as the standard of discussion … well … It should take very little thought or discussion to convince my Catholic friends that you just dont vote for genocide … yet they do so in huge numbers … enough so to swing an election … when the loser said that he was pro life… If logic is the standard for Catholic faith … more than half of voting Catholics are not even able to reason clearly where the most serious life and death issues are concerned.

Based on that one issue alone … it stands to reason that Evangelicals are able to hear the truth … live the truth … and see the difference between good and evil … and choose correctly. … That does not happen in a weak spiritual environment. The anti Christian / anti Life message is relentless … It takes wisdom and courage to stand against that antiChristian onslaught that is so prevalent in this society.

and Paul said that the Gentiles who have not the law are a law unto themselves and God is God of all and not impartial. It is possible that putting others to shame may wake them up to what they have?

 

[ddarko]

… Why is it that 74% of Evangelicals make a stand where it really counts … Know what is right to do … and do it.

Technically speaking, IF Faith AND Works are required for SALVATION, then 100% of evangelicals are WRONG where it REALLY MATTERS.

… and 54% 0f those who have access to all of the truth … use their God given right to vote … to vote for the death of unborn children … People here are attempting to establish logic as the standard of discussion … well … It should take very little thought or discussion to convince my Catholic friends that you just dont vote for genocide

Why do you fear logic?

While it is true that for you, genocide right now looks like a pretty bad thing. For someone who has been mislead by others, the only way he can evaluate that Genocide is bad is by REASONING.

You see, unless someone lives under a rock, there are multiple views out there in the world. Different people, depending on how and where they were born, would FEEL that different things are GOOD. For someone in Pakistan, the Gospel is bad news. For someone like you, the Gospel is good news. For you the Koran is false, for them that is true.

So the way people CHOOSE the RIGHT one is through rational discourse. i.e. logically.

Even simpler, think about what you are doing on this forum. You are trying to LOGICALLY justify that because “people know genocide is bad without reasoning” we don’t need reason. That it-self is attempt at reason.

Perhaps you have never thought about this, but to even abandon REASON, you end up using REASON which then means that you are engaged in trying to disprove yourself.

Also it does not make sense to say for an example that

“law of contradiction does not apply to me”.

Because in the above, I am saying that I accept that there are those who ACCEPT the Law and those who DO NOT accept the Law and they are not the same. In other words, I am saying there is a contradiction between those who accept and those who do not accept.

So there is no escape my friend. You need REASON. It is from REASON that leads us to the TRUTHS that we must believe. It is with FAITH that we believe in the TRUTHS.

Right now, out of some misconception, you are abandoning REASON just to preserve your FAITH because it lacks any foundation. I merely telling you to discover the foundations and then you will have a more complete picture.

What you should DO is embrace REASON, find out which religion is true and THEN have FULL FAITH in that religion. You can’t find out which religion is true BY FAITH. That is the mistake you are making right now.

God Bless

 

[CopticChristian]

Technically speaking, IF Faith AND Works are required for SALVATION, then 100% of evangelicals are WRONG where it REALLY MATTERS.

Why do you fear logic?

While it is true that for you, genocide right now looks like a pretty bad thing. For someone who has been mislead by others, the only way he can evaluate that Genocide is bad is by REASONING.

You see, unless someone lives under a rock, there are multiple views out there in the world. Different people, depending on how and where they were born, would FEEL that different things are GOOD. For someone in Pakistan, the Gospel is bad news. For someone like you, the Gospel is good news. For you the Koran is false, for them that is true.

So the way people CHOOSE the RIGHT one is through rational discourse. i.e. logically.

Even simpler, think about what you are doing on this forum. You are trying to LOGICALLY justify that because “people know genocide is bad without reasoning” we don’t need reason. That it-self is attempt at reason.

Perhaps you have never thought about this, but to even abandon REASON, you end up using REASON which then means that you are engaged in trying to disprove yourself.

Also it does not make sense to say for an example that

“law of contradiction does not apply to me”.

Because in the above, I am saying that I accept that there are those who ACCEPT the Law and those who DO NOT accept the Law and they are not the same. In other words, I am saying there is a contradiction between those who accept and those who do not accept.

So there is no escape my friend. You need REASON. It is from REASON that leads us to the TRUTHS that we must believe. It is with FAITH that we believe in the TRUTHS.

Right now, out of some misconception, you are abandoning REASON just to preserve your FAITH because it lacks any foundation. I merely telling you to discover the foundations and then you will have a more complete picture.

What you should DO is embrace REASON, find out which religion is true and THEN have FULL FAITH in that religion. You can’t find out which religion is true BY FAITH. That is the mistake you are making right now.

God Bless

Reason can lead you in many ways and if reason was all that mattered then where would we be?

It is not necessarily reason. Was Paul converted or caused to see by reason? Did the scales fall from his eyes by reason? Does the Holy Spirit lead you into all truths by reason?

7So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 8Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

We plant seeds. That is all we can do. I can’t make a plant grow any faster that it is to grow by putting more water, more fertilizer, more sunlight, telling it to grow, it is a lilly in the field and the splendor of that creation, like 1voice is not at my command. Frustration is born of lack of patience. I have seen Guanophore state, perhaps, the time is not now, there is lack of readiness and to be frustrated is not planting seeds.

Reason on. Many can reason that God does not exist with reason. Many can reason that God exists. Reason is not the basis of Faith. For by Faith you have been saved, the substance of those things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. Reason is not mentioned. Faith, Hope and love abide and it is Charity that endures forever.

 

[1voice]

Technically speaking, IF Faith AND Works are required for SALVATION, then 100% of evangelicals are WRONG where it REALLY MATTERS.

Why do you fear logic?

While it is true that for you, genocide right now looks like a pretty bad thing. For someone who has been mislead by others, the only way he can evaluate that Genocide is bad is by REASONING.

You see, unless someone lives under a rock, there are multiple views out there in the world. Different people, depending on how and where they were born, would FEEL that different things are GOOD. For someone in Pakistan, the Gospel is bad news. For someone like you, the Gospel is good news. For you the Koran is false, for them that is true.

So the way people CHOOSE the RIGHT one is through rational discourse. i.e. logically.

Even simpler, think about what you are doing on this forum. You are trying to LOGICALLY justify that because “people know genocide is bad without reasoning” we don’t need reason. That it-self is attempt at reason.

Perhaps you have never thought about this, but to even abandon REASON, you end up using REASON which then means that you are engaged in trying to disprove yourself.

Also it does not make sense to say for an example that

“law of contradiction does not apply to me”.

Because in the above, I am saying that I accept that there are those who ACCEPT the Law and those who DO NOT accept the Law and they are not the same. In other words, I am saying there is a contradiction between those who accept and those who do not accept.

So there is no escape my friend. You need REASON. It is from REASON that leads us to the TRUTHS that we must believe. It is with FAITH that we believe in the TRUTHS.

Right now, out of some misconception, you are abandoning REASON just to preserve your FAITH because it lacks any foundation. I merely telling you to discover the foundations and then you will have a more complete picture.

What you should DO is embrace REASON, find out which religion is true and THEN have FULL FAITH in that religion. You can’t find out which religion is true BY FAITH. That is the mistake you are making right now.

God Bless

Reason is based on evidence. “Faith is the evidence of things unseen”

“Faith comes by hearing.”

“If you hear … then obey”

“Those that hear … and obey … realize that it produces freedom” … Jesus.

That is the Gospel.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Uncharitable behavior makes me very angry…

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Lets post charitably and with respect for the other poster.
MMmmmkay?

 

[CopticChristian]

Reason is based on evidence. “Faith is the evidence of things unseen”

“Faith comes by hearing.”

“If you hear … then obey”

“Those that hear … and obey … realize that it produces freedom” … Jesus.

That is the Gospel.

You have Faith. You have reason.

Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth—in a word, to know himself—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves (cf. Ex 33:18; Ps 27:8-9; 63:2-3; Jn 14:8; 1 Jn 3:2).

You know God. Continue to reason towards the fullness of truth in Faith.

 

[1voice]

"At the end of life we will not be judged by how many diplomas we have received, how much money we have made, how many great things we have done.
We will be judged by “I was hungry, and you gave me something to eat, I was naked and you clothed me. I was homeless, and you took me in.”
— Mother Teresa

 

[CopticChristian]

"At the end of life we will not be judged by how many diplomas we have received, how much money we have made, how many great things we have done.
We will be judged by “I was hungry, and you gave me something to eat, I was naked and you clothed me. I was homeless, and you took me in.”
— Mother Teresa

Amen, amen and Amen

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Technically speaking, IF Faith AND Works are required for SALVATION, then 100% of evangelicals are WRONG where it REALLY MATTERS.

Why do you fear logic?

While it is true that for you, genocide right now looks like a pretty bad thing. For someone who has been mislead by others, the only way he can evaluate that Genocide is bad is by REASONING.

You see, unless someone lives under a rock, there are multiple views out there in the world. Different people, depending on how and where they were born, would FEEL that different things are GOOD. For someone in Pakistan, the Gospel is bad news. For someone like you, the Gospel is good news. For you the Koran is false, for them that is true.

So the way people CHOOSE the RIGHT one is through rational discourse. i.e. logically.

Even simpler, think about what you are doing on this forum. You are trying to LOGICALLY justify that because “people know genocide is bad without reasoning” we don’t need reason. That it-self is attempt at reason.

Perhaps you have never thought about this, but to even abandon REASON, you end up using REASON which then means that you are engaged in trying to disprove yourself.

Also it does not make sense to say for an example that

“law of contradiction does not apply to me”.

Because in the above, I am saying that I accept that there are those who ACCEPT the Law and those who DO NOT accept the Law and they are not the same. In other words, I am saying there is a contradiction between those who accept and those who do not accept.

So there is no escape my friend. You need REASON. It is from REASON that leads us to the TRUTHS that we must believe. It is with FAITH that we believe in the TRUTHS.

Right now, out of some misconception, you are abandoning REASON just to preserve your FAITH because it lacks any foundation. I merely telling you to discover the foundations and then you will have a more complete picture.

What you should DO is embrace REASON, find out which religion is true and THEN have FULL FAITH in that religion. You can’t find out which religion is true BY FAITH. That is the mistake you are making right now.

God Bless

Hmmm… let me see if I am understanding you correctly.

If anyone believes in Jesus Christ, they should logically be Catholic?

And by logic you mean: Reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Uncharitable behavior makes me very angry…

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/nun_slapping_ruler_hg_clr-1.gif

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/11.gif

Lets post charitably and with respect for the other poster.
MMmmmkay?

That nun gave me so many flashbacks!!!

 

[guanophore]

It’s a mystery of faith.

Frankly, that comes across as a cop out. Scripture is clear about the nature and purpose of the Church. The idea that Scripture can be disregarded on these points is, as has been pointed out, illogical.

 

[guanophore]

I know this is off the subject …

Not entirely because one could also ask “if I am saved by faith alone, why do I need the Church?”

but here goes… Your premise is that within Catholicism alone … ‘The lineage is not merely physical, it is spiritual, doctrinal, theological, sacramental, historical.’

This is not the case, actually. Catholicism recognizes that the Eastern Orthodox also have valid aposotlic succession, and that it may also exist in some separated communities in Norther Europe.

Given that premise … here is a real world … where the rubber meets the road example …
… What is the missing ingredient that caused over 50% of Catholics to vote for the man that had one of the strongest pro abortion/ pro death to unborn children … stances among our US Gov’t leaders. I realize that there were other issues involved in the decision … but it seems that for the majority of Catholics … the Ted Kennedy / Nancy Pelosi school if Catholicism rules… From what I remember reading back then … Without the Catholic vote … This current President would most likely not have gotten elected. Catholics voted for Mr. Obama over Mr. McCain by a nine-point margin - 54 percent versus 45 percent - That … is a landslide.

There are a number of missing ingredients here. One is poor catechesis. Catholics don’t know their faith well enough as a result of abysmal instruction.

Another is the influence and contamination of the church by modernism. This is the same root of Christians around the world embracing immoral behaviors like accepting birth control, tolerating other sexual sins, and the corruption of the New Age movement.

I am sure this is a good topic for a new thread, but it has nothing to do with valid Aposotlic Succession. Those who believe and stand within that succession do not engage in these behaviors.

When people such as yourself speak with confidence about your value system being the only one that stands the test of time … and then I see the leadership that system produces … I … well … You get what I mean? Its really … really confusing.

The Word of God preserved infallibly in the Church through the Holy Spirit is not a “value system” that originates in man. It is God’s Word. Yes, it does communicate a value system, but it’s authenticity does not rest in the faithfulness of man, but of God. You don’t judge the value of what Jesus taught by looking at Judas’ choices, do you?

… Jesus said … By their fruit you will know them … am I supposed to ignore the fact that my children can be strongly influenced to become wishy washy on the right to life issue if I encourage them to absorb those values and emulate the recent political leadership within the Catholic faith … and, by extension, the results that those values have produced ?

No, you should not ignore that at all. However, the evaluation of the fruit applies to individuals, not to the TEaching of the Church. We know by the fruit of Judas’ choices that he did not embrace Jesus’ teachings. We know by faithless Catholics that they do not follow the Teaching of Jesus that He has placed in His ONe Body, the Church. This is not an imputation on the Teaching, but on those who fail to embrace it.

 

[guanophore]

Based on that one issue alone … it stands to reason that Evangelicals are able to hear the truth … live the truth … and see the difference between good and evil … and choose correctly. … That does not happen in a weak spiritual environment. The anti Christian / anti Life message is relentless … It takes wisdom and courage to stand against that antiChristian onslaught that is so prevalent in this society.

Yes, this is the TEaching of the Catholic Church.

It is a sad fact that many Protestants, who have received a truncated gospel, live more purely according to the fragment they have received than Catholics who have been baptized into the fullness of the faith.

 

[guanophore]

Reason is based on evidence. “Faith is the evidence of things unseen”

“Faith comes by hearing.”

“If you hear … then obey”

“Those that hear … and obey … realize that it produces freedom” … Jesus.

That is the Gospel.

Yes, of course it is, 1voice. However, what I think you will have to admit is that everything that goes into a persons’ ears also goes thru the filter of their mind (which has been darkened by sin) and is subject to their PERCEPTIONS. For that reason, people can “hear” as many different things that are being preached as there are belly buttons. All committed Christians, faithful, and obedient, some of them embracing diametrically opposing doctrines. This is what causes the fragmentation that exists in the Body of Christ today.

 

[guanophore]

"At the end of life we will not be judged by how many diplomas we have received, how much money we have made, how many great things we have done.
We will be judged by “I was hungry, and you gave me something to eat, I was naked and you clothed me. I was homeless, and you took me in.”
— Mother Teresa

Since being on CAF does not accomplish these things, why do you invest your time here?

 

[1voice]

Quote:
Originally Posted by rinnie
Curious if you took to reading scriptures, and I believe you did, what did you do when you hit the scripture that said the CHURCH was the Pilar of all truth.

And what about the scripture that states stay true to all that you have been taught by either by word or written. Where do you get the word? Which is what we call Sacred Tradition, because its not in the bible, its in the Church like the Bible tells you?

---

Isaiah45_9

It’s a mystery of faith.

Frankly, that comes across as a cop out. Scripture is clear about the nature and purpose of the Church. The idea that Scripture can be disregarded on these points is, as has been pointed out, illogical.

This is my paradigm …

I have come to the understanding that Christianity is first and foremost … a relationship.
They will know you are Christians … by your love… not by a strict set of rules and regulations that must be adhered to in order to fit a mold of acceptance by those that make the rules.
I have Communion with God … every day. I have learned … through personal experience … that God relentlessly peruses me. His presence and love … consume me. It is impossible to destroy this understanding that I have attained … with words… Words have no strength compared to what I have in my heart.
and…
That state of constant communion is attainable by anyone … anywhere… without entering … or leaving a denomination.
Many years ago I read a book … “The Practice of the Presence of God” … By Brother Lawrence of the Cross. A Catholic Monk that lived in the 16 or 1700’s …

practicegodspresence.com/brotherlawrence/index.html

I determined to follow that same relentless pursuit of God that he did … and it worked.
I have the exact same testimony that Brother Lawrence documents so well.

As a boy,I read … “The Lives of the Saints” … and asked … What made them different?
How were they able to actually feel God’s presence and know what it felt like … Why did God talk to them … and not to me … or anyone that I knew?
fast forward to my 20’s … The Catholic Charismatic move of the Spirit of God awakened me to an understanding of the way God interacted with people that were hungry for him.
I heard about the book at that time … and found one and devoured it. It was like finding a vein of gold.
Over time … I grew in sweet communion with my Savior … It truly is amazing.
My point…
One of the things that happens when you are in God’s presence is that you become very sensitive to light and darkness… it just happens. Just as Brother Lawrence grew in sensitivity over time … I have experienced the same thing.
Discernment of spirits I think it is called.
I not only felt God’s love … I could also sense his presence , or lack of it, in others.
Something that I noticed … saw and experienced again and again was the presence of God’s bright light in people that were not Catholic. I saw that God crossed lines of denominations with his truth and light … without any problem. It was no big deal. I knew clearly that these people were my brothers and sisters in Christ without reservation. The criteria that I saw God use was truth in love. Man looks on the outside … God really does only look on the heart. I saw that the kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. The sense of brotherhood because of this communion with God was as refreshing as it was real.

I came to realize … God’s kingdom is governed by true love and obedience … nothing else.