If I lived circa 170 AD......

[joe370]

This is my last thread non-Catholics…I think… Always wondering, so who knows…If I lived circa 170 AD and wanted to follow Jesus by belonging to the church that He founded, (I will build MY church) - where would I have gone? Would I have gone to the present day CC or would I have gone to one of the present day PC’s? Please don’t tell me that I would have gone to the catholic church with a small c; that makes no sense to me. By the way, I have really enjoyed dialogging with everyone here at CAF…

 

[Kaninchen]

One that had learned that putting code in thread titles doesn’t work?

 

[joe370]

One that had learned that putting code in thread titles doesn’t work?

You might as well be speaking Spanish; I have no idea what you are talking about…Sorry…

 

[Kaninchen]

You might as well be speaking Spanish; I have no idea what you are talking about…Sorry…

You tried to make part of the header bold, you can’t, so you got the bracketed stuff.

While we’re at it - I’ve got a 23 inch monitor which isn’t exactly big but not exactly small and some of your threads take up three lines when they appear on the main CAF forum page. Have you not thought of how many lines they take up for people with small monitors or using notebooks? Of how long they have to scroll down to see forums lower than ‘Non-Catholic Religions’ when one of your threads happens to be the latest?

In the old days it was called ‘netiquette’ - not doing things that make things difficult for others. Thread titles don’t have to be as long as you’re making them in order to make a point.

 

[Catholic90]

…If I lived circa 170 AD and wanted to follow Jesus by belonging to the church that He founded, (I will build MY church) - where would I have gone? Would I have gone to the present day CC or would I have gone to one of the present day PC’s?

By a “PC” I assume you mean protestant. Considering the Reformation had not yet occurred in 170 AD, there were no protestant churches. There was just the Catholic Church.

What the others are saying is don’t make your titles so long. It messes up the formating on others’ computers.

 

[GEddie]

This is my last thread non-Catholics…I think… Always wondering, so who knows…If I lived circa 170 AD and wanted to follow Jesus by belonging to the church that He founded, (I will build MY church) - where would I have gone? Would I have gone to the present day CC or would I have gone to one of the present day PC’s? Please don’t tell me that I would have gone to the catholic church with a small c; that makes no sense to me. By the way, I have really enjoyed dialogging with everyone here at CAF…

Meaningless question, as in AD170 there was only one “church.” Sure, there were distinct local church leaderships, as well as heretics such as the Gnostics; and the sacramental rubrics were still in a developmental stage; but in AD170 there were no “modern day PC’s”. If in that year you sought the true, Christian faith, you would have gone to what you call the “CC.”

The idea that a BODY can maintain life in hundreds of pieces, as we have now, had not yet occurred in AD170.

ICXC NIKA

 

[tester]

Joe370:
Your post has a faulty premise:
You are assuming that your definition of “church’ is the one used in 170 AD…

By using the actual definition of the word: (see below)

It is impossible for a believer to NOT belong to the church that Jesus founded:

from biblecommenter.com/1_timothy/3-15.htm

“Church” does not mean in a place of public worship, nor does it refer to propriety of deportment there.
It refers rather to the church as a body of believers, and to converse with them. The church is called the “house of God,” because it is that in which he dwells. Formerly, his unique residence was in the temple at Jerusalem; now that the temple is destroyed, it is the church of Christ, among his people.

the greek is here at biblos.com/1_timothy/3-15.htm

the word is ekklēsia

defined here at strongsnumbers.com/greek/1577.htm

Original Word: ἐκκλησία
Transliteration: ekklésia
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-klay-see’-ah)
Short Definition: assembly

Word Origin
from ek and kaleó
Definition
an assembly, a (religious) congregation
NASB Word Usage
assembly (3), church (74), churches (35), congregation (2).

From a compound of ek and a derivative of kaleo; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both) – assembly, church.

here are 33 other uses of the word in the NT:
concordance.biblos.com/ekkle_sia.htm

 

[tester]

so by using the Biblical defintion that a church is a body of believers…

If Joe370 and Tester are believers ; then they are together in the church that Jesus founded:

But if the man sitting next to Joe370 in a pew is NOT a believer; then he is NOT in the church that Jesus founded:

 

[Publisher]

This is my last thread non-Catholics…I think… Always wondering, so who knows…If I lived circa 170 AD and wanted to follow Jesus by belonging to the church that He founded, (I will build MY church) - where would I have gone? Would I have gone to the present day CC or would I have gone to one of the present day PC’s? Please don’t tell me that I would have gone to the catholic church with a small c; that makes no sense to me. By the way, I have really enjoyed dialogging with everyone here at CAF…

I think it would depend on where you lived. If you lived in Asia Minor, you most likely would have been “following Jesus” through the ministry of the Marcionites…they were the predominant “version” of Christianity at that time in Asia Minor…in fact their version of Christianity was the only version many of the congregations there had ever experienced.

If you lived more toward the African continent…you may have been a member of a Gnostic group that woshipped along side the emerging “proto-orthodo/catholic” groups or you may have been part of a docetic group and never read any other gospel other than the “Gospel of Peter”.

If you lived further down toward Ethiopia…you may have been a member of the church there…who were the predecessors of the Ethiopian Orthodox.

You may have been a member of a “Johanine community” of believers that used the gospel of John and had begun developing a more detailed “Christology”…or perhaps the only gospel you read was the “gospel of Thomas” and been a member of one of their congregations, one which focused on the teaching of Jesus of Nazareth instead of the 'emerging" disputes concerning his divine nature.

If you would have lived in Rome, you most likely would have been a member OF the emerging “proto-orthodox/catholic” group that only now was beginning to consolidate their resources and establish set beliefs concerning Jesus of Nazareth.

Depending on which part of the Empire you were living in would determine which “version” you belonged to…some of these groups were so isolated, their version was the only version anyone had heard of.

 

[Todd520]

Joe370:
Your post has a faulty premise:
You are assuming that your definition of “church’ is the one used in 170 AD…

Yes, Joe is very devious and tricky
I hope he doesn’t create unfair multiple choice tests for a living

 

[Todd520]

tester gets my vote for best answer.

This also fits with the proper interpretation of the Christ building his Church on the WORD.

so by using the Biblical defintion that a church is a body of believers…

If Joe370 and Tester are believers ; then they are together in the church that Jesus founded:

But if the man sitting next to Joe370 in a pew is NOT a believer; then he is NOT in the church that Jesus founded:

 

[jlhargus]

so by using the Biblical defintion that a church is a body of believers…

If Joe370 and Tester are believers ; then they are together in the church that Jesus founded:

But if the man sitting next to Joe370 in a pew is NOT a believer; then he is NOT in the church that Jesus founded:

What did people do the first time the gospel was preached by Peter? Acts2:41 Then THEY THAT gladly RECEIVED HIS WORD were BAPTIZED: and the same day there WERE ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls. 42 And THEY CONTINUED steadfastly IN the APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP (mass), and in BREAKING OF BREAD, and in PRAYERS. [Those that received his word were baptized. They were ADDED into the Church by baptism and CONTINUED steadfastly in the APOSTLES DOCTRINE, that they may ALL be One VISIBLE Holy Catholic Apostolic Fellowship, as Christ prayed in the garden. [Jn17:21 THAT THEY ALL MAY BE ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that thou hast sent me.]

1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS CHRIST 10 I appeal to you BREATHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and THE SAME JUDGMENT. 1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR [Therefore we do not listen to men, the spirit of error, to be taken in by false teachers and every wind of doctine men can devise.]

[Mk 9:38 And JOHN answered him, SAYING, MASTER, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and HE FOLLOWETH NOT **US: and WE FORBAD HIM, because HE FOLLOWETH NOT US. 39 But JESUS SAID, FORBID HIM NOT: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against US is on OUR PART.] Christ established, and SENT one fellowship to TEACH the whole world and said I will be WITH YOU till the end . The Holy Spirit works thru those separated denominations not in visible union with the Apostles Fellowship. Uniting them to the ONE fellowship in a spiritual way. So yes all Christ’s children are spiritually, although not visibly nor holding the apostles doctrine fully, united to the Church or body of Christ. [1Tm3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself IN THE HOUSE OF GOD, which is THE CHURCH of the living God, THE PILLAR AND GROUND OF TRUTH.] There can’t be thousands of households of God teaching contradicting doctrine. There is only ONE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD that is the pillar and ground of truth the apostles fellowship.

Paul even checked his teaching with that one fellowship, to be sure he was not teaching another doctrine or gospel. [Gal2:1 Then fourteen years after I WENT UP AGAIN TO JERUSALEM with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up BY REVELATION, and ]COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM that GOSPEL which I PREACH among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, LEST BY ANY MEANS I SHOULD run, or HAD RUN, IN VAIN.]

 

[woodland_poet]

In 170 AD you would have found a group of people who call themselves Christians. You would have recognized many of them as appearing as Jews and some others as Gentiles. On Sunday, the first day of the week, you would have seen many of them gather to celebrate and remember the Risen Lord, He who was crucified, the Christ, the Son of God. They would have begun the liturgy with a prayer of thanks. You would then have heard them read readings from what we now call the Old Testament and would have sung the Psalms together. You would have then seen them proclaim the Gospel, either written or not, the Good News of Christ among men who died and was risen. Then, most importantly, you have broken bread and drank wine. But first, the celebrating priest or bishop, an Apostle of Christ would have spoken a prayer over these gifts of bread and wine, invoking the Holy Spirit of God to transform them into the very Body and Blood of Christ. The participents present would be willing to die for their belief that Jesus Christ was truly present under these species of bread and wine. One would only present themselves if worthy, free of sin, and in communion with Christ and the Christian community. There would be a time to reflect, a final prayer and blessing and the community would disperse giving thanks to God.

 

[tskrobacz]

You would live in a time when Christians were being publicly executed as entertainment for not submitting to the Roman gods. You also would be living in a time with more than 30 Gospels…many of which were later discarded in favor of “clarifying” the faith - Bishops of the day were faced with a need to clarify the faith so people understood exactly what they were dying for. You would also be living in a time were there were no “churches” per se - most services were held in private homes. It wasn’t until 313 when Christianity became the state religion that we ended up in our present day situation - probably quite different than Jesus had envisioned.

 

[woodland_poet]

Actually, many of the false “gospels” were not written until the 3rd and 4th centuries.And what of the Holy Eucharist? The Eucharist was celebrated from the very beginning of the Catholic Church, the real presense of Jesus Christ, Body and Blood in bread and wine. Where do you find the Eucharist today? Only in the Catholic Church. Jesus was a Church builder, not a book salesman. Only through the Catholic Church do we have the Bible.

 

[tskrobacz]

Actually, many of the false “gospels” were not written until the 3rd and 4th centuries.And what of the Holy Eucharist? The Eucharist was celebrated from the very beginning of the Catholic Church, the real presense of Jesus Christ, Body and Blood in bread and wine. Where do you find the Eucharist today? Only in the Catholic Church. Jesus was a Church builder, not a book salesman. Only through the Catholic Church do we have the Bible.

While the earliest copies of many gospels were in fact dated to the 3rd and 4th centuries, it is unknown when many of the originals of these gospels were actually written. The Bible as it stands was a very necessary step in the formation of the early church however the transition to a state religion in the year 313 is a topic of debate to this day as it exchanged many of the early forms of contemplation and soul work for ritual and doctrine. Many would argue that modern 12-step programs are more in step with pre-313 practices in spirituality.

 

[JHow]

…In the old days it was called ‘netiquette’ - not doing things that make things difficult for others. Thread titles don’t have to be as long as you’re making them in order to make a point.

Hee hee ! I have lived long enough to see a “traditional” view of the Internet!

“Young whippersnappers and their dang typin’ machines!”

 

[Kaninchen]

Hee hee ! I have lived long enough to see a “traditional” view of the Internet!

“Young whippersnappers and their dang typin’ machines!”

Have to admit to a decade and a half of it all - a survivor of the ‘Wild West’ days of no moderation, massed troll invasions, even survived ‘All your base are belong to us’.

I’m a allowed a bit of grouchiness.

Somebody did a nice precis of the original thread title, by the way.

 

[jlhargus]

I think it would depend on where you lived. If you lived in Asia Minor, you most likely would have been “following Jesus” through the ministry of the Marcionites…they were the predominant “version” of Christianity at that time in Asia Minor…in fact their version of Christianity was the only version many of the congregations there had ever experienced.

JL: Not so, not at all, where did you come up with this, have you got evidence or a source?
newadvent.org/cathen/09645c.htm Heretical sect founded in A.D. 144 at Rome by Marcion and continuing in the West for 300 years, but in the East some centuries longer, especially outside the Byzantine Empire. They rejected the writings of the Old Testament and taught that Christ was not the Son of the God of the Jews, but the Son of the good God, who was different from the God of the Ancient Covenant. They anticipated the more consistent dualism of Manichaeism and were finally absorbed by it. As they arose in the very infancy of Christianity and adopted from the beginning a strong ecclesiastical organization, parallel to that of the Catholic Church, they were perhaps the most dangerous foe Christianity has ever known. The subject will be treated under the following heads:

If you lived more toward the African continent…you may have been a member of a Gnostic group that woshipped along side the emerging “proto-orthodo/catholic” groups or you may have been part of a docetic group and never read any other gospel other than the “Gospel of Peter”.
JL: newadvent.org/cathen/06592a.htm A collective name for a large number of greatly-varying and pantheistic-idealistic sects, which flourished from some time before the Christian Era down to the fifth century, and which, while borrowing the phraseology and some of the tenets of the chief religions of the day, and especially of Christianity,
Publisher;7182376:

If you lived further down toward Ethiopia…you may have been a member of the church there…who were the predecessors of the Ethiopian Orthodox.

JL: The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahido Church is one of five Oriental Orthodox Churches, also known as the non-Chalcedonian Churches. These churches do not accept the fifth church council held in Chalcedon, which decreed that Christ had two distinct natures, the Divine and the Human. angelfire.com/ny3/ethiochurch/ ] to find move down to the icon of St Tekle.

You may have been a member of a “Johanine community” of believers that used the gospel of John and had begun developing a more detailed “Christology”…or perhaps the only gospel you read was the “gospel of Thomas” and been a member of one of their congregations, one which focused on the teaching of Jesus of Nazareth instead of the 'emerging" disputes concerning his divine nature.

JL: Yes one may have been a member of a “Johanine community” which would be a community founded by John. Holding the same faith teachings as the rest of the Church.

If you would have lived in Rome, you most likely would have been a member OF the emerging “proto-orthodox/catholic” group that only now was beginning to consolidate their resources and establish set beliefs concerning Jesus of Nazareth.

JL: Well according to Paul, before he ever visited, when he wrote to the Church in Rome, it was very well established. [Rms15:14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that **ye also are full of goodness, filled WITH ALL KNOWLEDGE, ABLE also TO ADMONISH ONE ANOTHER

.]

The Church was converting, preaching and teaching the SAME faith handed on by the apostles, no matter where it was located. There was no such thing as a Christian Tower of Babal, as your post implies, as we see today with sola scriptura, with thousands of contradicting teachings and denominations.

Depending on which part of the Empire you were living in would determine which “version” you belonged to…some of these groups were so isolated, their version was the only version anyone had heard of.

JL: Anyone can make a up, or be taught a good story, as historic, saying whatever they want. Yet it is a different matter, when asked to provide evidence, to prove that story. I would like to see your evidence.

 

[Publisher]

JL: Not so, not at all, where did you come up with this, have you got evidence or a source?
newadvent.org/cathen/09645c.htm Heretical sect founded in A.D. 144 at Rome by Marcion and continuing in the West for 300 years, but in the East some centuries longer, especially outside the Byzantine Empire. They rejected the writings of the Old Testament and taught that Christ was not the Son of the God of the Jews, but the Son of the good God, who was different from the God of the Ancient Covenant. They anticipated the more consistent dualism of Manichaeism and were finally absorbed by it. As they arose in the very infancy of Christianity and adopted from the beginning a strong ecclesiastical organization, parallel to that of the Catholic Church, they were perhaps the most dangerous foe Christianity has ever known. The subject will be treated under the following heads:
Publisher;7182376:

If you lived more toward the African continent…you may have been a member of a Gnostic group that woshipped along side the emerging “proto-orthodo/catholic” groups or you may have been part of a docetic group and never read any other gospel other than the “Gospel of Peter”.
JL: newadvent.org/cathen/06592a.htm

                                                       A collective name for a large number of greatly-varying and pantheistic-idealistic sects, which flourished from some time before the Christian Era down to the fifth century, and which, while borrowing the phraseology and some of the tenets of the chief religions of the day, and especially of Christianity,

JL: The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahido Church is one of five Oriental Orthodox Churches, also known as the non-Chalcedonian Churches. These churches do not accept the fifth church council held in Chalcedon, which decreed that Christ had two distinct natures, the Divine and the Human. angelfire.com/ny3/ethiochurch/ ] to find move down to the icon of St Tekle.

JL: Yes one may have been a member of a “Johanine community” which would be a community founded by John. Holding the same faith teachings as the rest of the Church.

JL: Well according to Paul when he wrote to the Church in Rome, it was very well established. [Rms15:14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that **ye also are full of goodness, filled WITH ALL KNOWLEDGE, ABLE also TO ADMONISH ONE ANOTHER.]

The Church was converting, preaching and teaching the SAME faith handed on by the apostles, no matter where it was located. There was no such thing as a Christian Tower of Babal, as we see today with sola scriptura, with thousands of contradicting teachings and denominations.

JL: Anyone can make a up, or be taught a good story, as historic, saying whatever they want. Yet it is a different matter, when asked to provide evidence, to prove that story. I would like to see your evidence.

Friend,

I got my info from,

Richard Price “Pre-Nicene New Testament”

Bart Erhman “Lost Christianities” , “Lost Scriptures”

Burton Mack “Who Wrote the New Testament”

Elaine Pagels “Gnostic Gospels”, “Beyond Belief”, to name a few.

You should be able to find them at your local library or book store.

Peace to you,