If I said this would you think I violated the 1st commandment?

[lizaanne]

So you view the statement by the OP as “truth”?

What statement? He asked one question regarding two points of view which I commented on.

Did you miss my point?:

You can certainly respect the person, but to say that you respect their beliefs is a denial of the Truth and it’s ultimate culmination of leading souls to heaven.

Apparently not. I am not saying that we should ever condemn, hate, or ridicule a person for their ignorance, but I do not, should not, and will NEVER “respect” un-Truth.

~Liza

 

[RosaryCrusader]

Sirach, other posters agree to that which you cannot see. Quit attacking the messenger and look at the message. I will not address the red herrings you posted other than V2 did not claim to be infallible. Therefore all pronouncements must be understood in light of tradition which has rarely been seen today.

 

[Sirach2]

Lizaanne:

You can certainly respect the person, but to say that you respect their beliefs is a denial of the Truth and it’s ultimate culmination of leading souls to heaven.

It depends on your understanding of the word “respect.” That seems to be the hang-up here. Respect does not mean nonchalance, and indifference concerning their beliefs, as you are believing of the bishops. The Church has never taught that the gospel should be withheld from these non christians. From V-II and the CCC:

1. The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.” [LG 16; cf. NA 2; EN 53] [28, 856]

St. Paul wrote in Acts 17,
"Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; "for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: “TO THE UNKNOWN GOD”.

Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: "God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. "

It is clear that Paul respected where they were in their limited scope of understanding with regard to God, and proceeded to enlighten them with the Good News. As the Council stated, it is a preparation for the gospel. Yet, unless we are respectful the graces God has given non christians … where they are at any given point in time … there is no hope of winning them to the faith, and we become clanging cymbals of superiority, forgetting that our own gifts were unearned.

 

[Sirach2]

Sirach, other posters agree to that which you cannot see.

Not ALL of them, RC … not all of them. Read again.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

**
The Church has never taught that the gospel should be withheld from these non christians. From V-II and the CCC:

Your refuting things no one said.

1. The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.” [LG 16; cf. NA 2; EN 53] [28, 856]

Do you think this says we worship the same gods as non-Christians or that they worship the One True God?

St. Paul wrote in Acts 17,
"Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; "for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: “TO THE UNKNOWN GOD”.

Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: "God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. "

Please go and read verse 30 of this passage then the following commentary from Haydock:

Ver. 23. It may be asked, why they had not implicit faith, worshipping the true, though unknown, God?[5] 1st. because the worship of the true God can never exist with the worship of idols; 2nd. because an explicit faith in God is required of all; 3rd. because it is repugnant to implicit faith, to admit any thing contrary to it, as comparing this unknown God with the pagan idols; for God to be at all, must be one. Lucan towards the end of his 2nd book, hath these words:

“What, therefore, you improperly worship, that I preach to you, and instruct you in the true worship, far different from what you pay to your strange gods.”

and…

Ver. 22. Over-religious.[4] Or very superstitious. To be superstitious, or given to superstition, is commonly taken for a vain and groundless religious worship, but it is also sometimes used in a good sense. And perhaps St. Paul, in the beginning of his speech to so many men of learning, does not so openly blame them for being vainly and foolishly superstitious, but by their inscription, to the unknown[5] God, he takes notice how nice and exact they pretended to be, in not omitting to pay some kind of homage to any god, or gods of all other nations, whom they might not know. For some interpreters think, that by this altar they designed to worship every god of any nation, who was not come to their knowledge: or to worship that great God hinted at in the writings of Plato: or as others conjecture, that God of the Jews, of whom they might have heard such wonders, and whose name the Jews themselves said to be unknown and ineffable. However, from this inscription St. Paul takes an occasion, with wonderful dexterity, with sublime reflections, and with that solid eloquence, of which he was master, and which he employed, as often as it was necessary, to inform them, and instruct them, concerning the works of the one true God, of whom they had little knowledge, by their own fault: that this one true God made the world, and all things in it: that from one man he raised all mankind: that his presence is not confined to temples made by the hands of men, being every where, and in all creatures, preserving them every moment: that in him we live, move, and have our being, or subsist: that it is he, who hath determined the time, limits, or bounds of every empire, and kingdom, and of every man’s life: that this true God, who made, preserves, and governs all things in heaven and on earth, cannot be like to gold, silver, or any thing made by the art, or fancy of men. He puts them in mind that according even to one of their own heathen poets, Aratus, men themselves are the offspring of God, being blessed with a being and knowledge above all other creatures in this world: who by the light of reason ought to seek God, and by considering the visible effects of Providence over the world, and the creatures in it, might come to the knowledge of this one God, the author of all, at least to an imperfect knowledge of him, as men find out things by feeling, or as it were, groping in the dark. He then adds, (ver. 30.) that having, as it were, overlooked, and permitted men for many ages to run on in this ignorance and blindness, in punishment of their sins, (this their ignorance of one true God, the author of all things, being wilful and inexcusable) now the same true God hath been pleased to announce to all men, that henceforward they acknowledge, and worship him, that they repent, and do penance for their sins. (Witham)

 

[Sirach2]

RosaryCrusader:

Catechism:

1. The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown

yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.” [LG 16; cf. NA 2]

Do you think this says we worship the same gods as non-Christians or that they worship the One True God?

Your question should not be directed to me, RC, but to the Church, who declared this teaching in V-II documents Lumen Gentium and Nostra Aetate. I have no desire to debate with you over this solemnly-defined teaching of an ecumenical council. It is your persistent disagreement with the Church that is at issue here, as well as that of the bishops. It is not necessary for me to PROVE the teaching, since it is clearly defined, both in the documents themselves and the CCC.

The only purpose in my illustrating the example of St. Paul was to show that he took the Greeks from where they were to where he hoped to lead them. Whatever good a nonChristian may hold in their belief system, it may be “a preparation for the gospel.” I don’t need a lengthly commentary about their ill disposition, superstition, idolatry, or whatever you want to use to spin this thread into further fractioning.

You have yet to respond to whether or not you made an effort to contact the USCCB for a clearer understanding of their prayer before besmirching them in public defamation for violating the first commandment. Aren’t believers supposed to go to the person FIRST if they have an issue?

 

[PKinsale]

RosaryCrusader, where does the Cabrini quote come from?

 

[RosaryCrusader]

Your question should not be directed to me, RC, but to the Church, who declared this teaching in V-II documents Lumen Gentium and Nostra Aetate. I have no desire to debate with you over this solemnly-defined teaching of an ecumenical council. It is your persistent disagreement with the Church that is at issue here, as well as that of the bishops. It is not necessary for me to PROVE the teaching, since it is clearly defined, both in the documents themselves and the CCC.

My question is directed to you because you’re saying that Vatican II and the catechism state we worship the same god(s) as non-Christians and they worship the same God as us. You’re gravely mistaken and If you truly believe that then I’d suggest sitting down with your Priest so he can explain it to you since you are clearly having difficulty reading what the catechism and V2 are saying.

You have yet to respond to whether or not you made an effort to contact the USCCB for a clearer understanding of their prayer before besmirching them in public defamation for violating the first commandment. Aren’t believers supposed to go to the person FIRST if they have an issue?

Do you really think I should write a letter to the USCCB asking, “When you stated in the prayers of the faithful that Christians and non-Christians believe in the same god did you mean that Christians and non-Christians believe in the same god?”

Now, Sirach, here’s a little homework for you to do. Look up what the Church teaches on religious indifference. Specifically Mirari Vos by Pope Gregory XVI which deals specifically with the error of religious indifference and the syllabus of errors by Pope Pius IX which is a compilation of errors defined by many different Popes over the ages. Also, Liberalism is a Sin (Tan Books) would help out. Then, when you read V2 or choose to quote from it, realize that V2 has to be read in light of the traditional teachings of the Church.

 

[Timothysis]

Who said anything about “religious indifference?” Those who adhere to a false religion acknowledge the sameness of God whenever their beliefs coincide with the Catholic belief and understanding of God. It is the same with the Church and what she calls “ecclesial communities.” The Church regards certain of their sacraments as valid because they technically belong to the Catholic Church; though in their imperfect union they still exercise a legitimacy that the Church recognizes. False religions that believe in the necessity of Justice and the notion of doing Good as a duty to others share a common belief as the Church. What would you have the bishops do; convert them at sword point?

 

[RosaryCrusader]

False religions that believe in the necessity of Justice and the notion of doing Good as a duty to others share a common belief as the Church.

Yes, it’s great when people have a little ray of truth mixed in with error (even a rat eating rat poison gets the benefit of 98% nutritional substance with only 2% poison) and hopefully that little ray will orient that person to the reception of the Gospel and salvation but until then - we don’t worship the same God.

What would you have the bishops do; convert them at sword point?

How are prayers of the faithful at a Catholic Mass saying everyone on the face of the planet is worshipping the same God converting anyone at all? Faith is through hearing - saying we’re all worshipping the same God isn’t hearing anything of the Gospel and so no one could possibly ever expect to receive the gift of faith by such an acclamation. The absence of the Gospel is not the Gospel.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

Sirach, listen up - hopefully you’re doing your homework and will report back here soon. After that, I have another assignment for you.

Vatican II, Nostra Aetate #3 states that Muslims and Catholics adore the One True God (that’s another topic). Can you point to any part in the documents that state that this is true of all the other non-Christian religions as the USCCB has stated in their petitions?

 

[SouthpawLink]

The above quotes were actually reworded but from the USCCB’s suggested prayers of the faithful for the anniversary of the September 11 attacks as reported on another forum.

usccb.org/seia/document_2.pdf

For our brothers and sisters of different faiths, Christian and non Christian, that we demonstrate respect and love for one another since we believe in the same God who made us all and placed us together on earth, We pray to the Lord.

For those who believe differently about God than we do,** that we respect their beliefs and practices** as we would want them to respect ours, We pray to the Lord.

For all who follow Christ and use the name Christian, that we show repect for the beliefs, practices and writings of those of different faiths as we should want them to have respect for ours, We pray to the Lord.

There’s a few points to make:

1. We don’t believe in the same ‘god’ as non-Christians. We don’t believe in false deities which the Bible calls devils. Nor do non-Christians believe in Our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, or the Blessed Trinity.
2. We don’t esteem or respect false religions. We respect other human beings who may belong to these false religions but we do not esteem the religion itself; it’s beliefs, practices or writings.

This is religious indifferentism at it’s finest coming from the USCCB!

That is very, very sad indeed. The Baltimore Catechism and Mass No. 3 said that we are to be tolerant of other people, but not of their false beliefs.

And yes, the second statement is quite troubling. Two popes have said that God is only truly worshiped in the Catholic Church (Gregory the Great and Gregory XVI).

 

[Genesis315]

And yes, the second statement is quite troubling. Two popes have said that God is only truly worshiped in the Catholic Church (Gregory the Great and Gregory XVI).

That means worshipped in spirit and in truth. People of other religions can and do adore the true God (except for those that only adore idols–creatures that exist or are of the imagination but which have a contingent essense). True worship–worshipping God in spirit and in truth (especially offering the Mass in union with His Mystical Body)–is not the same as natural acts of worship, like those offered by the pagans St. Paul came across in Acts 17 who he said were actually worshipping the God he preached (he contrasts them to those worshipping idols in the nearby temples). Perfect knowledge and belief in all of revealed truth is not necessary to have a natural knowledge of God and to adore Him.

The devils of the Gentiles were not posited to have the non-contingent essence of the one Creator–they were creatures. The traditional approach to Muslims has never considered them to be idolators–in other words, they are not worshipping something other than God (unless it is said they are worshipping Muhammed or the meteor, but that is erroneous).

God can be known through natural means, but the Trinity cannot be (only through appropriation–excellence=the Father, power=the Word/Son, divinity=the Holy Spirit). So one can worship God without believing in the Trinity (that worship may be in vain of course).

St. Thomas’ commentary on the first chapter of Romans and his commentary on John 17 contain very good explanations of these principles (in the latter he even states some pagans worshipped idols but others worshipped the true God along with idols–if worship of the true God can happen in the context, it can be done by those who are not idolators).

 

[Sirach2]

RosaryCrusader:

Do you really think I should write a letter to the USCCB asking, “When you stated in the prayers of the faithful that Christians and non-Christians believe in the same god did you mean that Christians and non-Christians believe in the same god?”

Yes, of course. It costs very little for a stamp, even less for a phone call. OTOH, you have no qualms about asking the forum members what they think, so why not take it to the source who said it? You might be surprised when they give you a good answer.

Vatican II, Nostra Aetate #3 states that Muslims and Catholics adore the One True God (that’s another topic). Can you point to any part in the documents that state that this is true of all the other non-Christian religions as the USCCB has stated in their petitions?

My, you DO have selective reading, yes? For the sake of those who absorb your misunderstanding, I will respond so they can read these pertinent paragraphs.
2. From ancient times down to the present, there is found among various peoples a certain perception of that hidden power which hovers over the course of things and over the events of human history; at times some indeed have come to the recognition of a Supreme Being, or even of a Father. This perception and recognition penetrates their lives with a profound religious sense.
I note that even in Alcoholics Anonymous, God is referred to as “Higher Power,” as one understands Him." It is no different in this instance, for God has placed in the human heart a natural law which is capable of knowing that He IS even though the person may not have access to the true revelation of God as Triune, through no fault of their own.

Continuing Nostra Aetate, which underlies the prayer of the Bishops …
The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.
And with respect to the Jews …
“theirs is the sonship and the glory and the covenants and the law and the worship and the promises; theirs are the fathers and from them is the Christ according to the flesh” (Rom. 9:4-5),

Nevertheless, God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues-such is the witness of the Apostle.
And this last paragraph teaches succinctly what Jesus proclaimed in John 10:16, “I have other sheep that are not of this sheepfold. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.” The Holy Spirit will bring about this prophecy in His time.
In company with the Prophets and the same Apostle, the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and “serve him shoulder to shoulder” (Soph. 3:9).(12)

 

[Sirach2]

Timothysis:

What would you have the bishops do; convert them at sword point?

Good point, Timothy. Pope Pius XII taught in Mystici Corporis Christi that man must be free to embrace the faith. It is timely for us to remember and reflect on his words.

1. Though We desire this unceasing prayer to rise to God from the whole Mystical Body in common, that all the straying sheep may hasten to enter the one fold of Jesus Christ, yet We recognize that this must be done of their own free will; for no one believes unless he wills to believe. Hence they are most certainly not genuine Christians who against their belief are forced to go into a church, to approach the altar and to receive the Sacraments; for the “faith without which it is impossible to please God” is an entirely free “submission of intellect and will.”

Therefore, whenever it happens, despite the constant teaching of this Apostolic See, that anyone is compelled to embrace the Catholic faith against his will, Our sense of duty demands that We condemn the act.

For men must be effectively drawn to the truth by the Father of light through the spirit of His beloved Son, because, endowed as they are with free will, they can misuse their freedom under the impulse of mental agitation and base desires. Unfortunately many are still wandering far from the Catholic truth, being unwilling to follow the inspirations of divine grace, because neither they nor the faithful pray to God with sufficient fervor for this intention. Again and again We beg all we ardently love the Church to follow the example of the Divine Redeemer and to give themselves constantly to such prayer.

Unfortunately, some are all too willing to air their dissidence on the internet and spread further diivision such as this thread has witnessed, rather than quietly take the matter to prayer for evangelization with a view toward unity.

 

[illmatic]

“My brothers and sisters of different religions - Christian and non Christian - we believe in the same God who created us and put us together on earth.”

I believe this. I believe that we have different beliefs about and opinions of the same God… and although we are all independently convinced that we are correct in our beliefs, there is no way to know. One God, many religions. We’re all in this together.

 

[Timothysis]

Unfortunately, some are all too willing to air their dissidence on the internet and spread further diivision such as this thread has witnessed, rather than quietly take the matter to prayer for evangelization with a view toward unity.

Agreed. I really don’t understand the thought process behind those like the OP. Do they suggest that we shun all those who are not Catholic? Should we ignore those who do not share the same faith? There is a reason that the Church embraces the concept of invincible ignorance. While we sit here at our computers with our decent jobs, nice homes and college educations, there are billions in this world who do not and will not ever possess the knowledge and critical thinking skills that are required for one to have (at minimum) a decent working knowledge of Catholicism. How do you explain the reality of Christ present in the Eucharist to one who works in the fields all day and lives in a house without electricity or running water? Lastly, how does the OP suggest that we begin this process of educating every man, woman and child in the world on the particulars of Catholic thought and theology?

To borrow a line from A Christmas Carol, "It may be, that in the sight of Heaven, you are more worthless and less fit to live than millions like this poor man’s child. Oh God! to hear the Insect on the leaf pronouncing on the too much life among his hungry brother’s in the dust."

 

[RosaryCrusader]

Agreed. I really don’t understand the thought process behind those like the OP. Do they suggest that we shun all those who are not Catholic? Should we ignore those who do not share the same faith?

Where have I said anything implying what you just wrote? Honestly, Tim, I don’t understand how you come up with this stuff.

There is a reason that the Church embraces the concept of invincible ignorance.

How does the Church “embrace” invincible ignorance? And what do you mean by “embrace?” The Church’s mission is to spread the Gospel and proclaim the Truth - not “embrace” invincible ignorance.

Also, can you please answer my question to you:

*How are prayers of the faithful at a Catholic Mass saying everyone on the face of the planet is worshipping the same God converting anyone at all?

 

[RosaryCrusader]

Yes, of course. It costs very little for a stamp, even less for a phone call. OTOH, you have no qualms about asking the forum members what they think, so why not take it to the source who said it? You might be surprised when they give you a good answer.

My, you DO have selective reading, yes? For the sake of those who absorb your misunderstanding, I will respond so they can read these pertinent paragraphs.
2. From ancient times down to the present, there is found among various peoples a certain perception of that hidden power which hovers over the course of things and over the events of human history; at times some indeed have come to the recognition of a Supreme Being, or even of a Father. This perception and recognition penetrates their lives with a profound religious sense.
I note that even in Alcoholics Anonymous, God is referred to as “Higher Power,” as one understands Him." It is no different in this instance, for God has placed in the human heart a natural law which is capable of knowing that He IS even though the person may not have access to the true revelation of God as Triune, through no fault of their own.

Continuing Nostra Aetate, which underlies the prayer of the Bishops …
The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.
And with respect to the Jews …
“theirs is the sonship and the glory and the covenants and the law and the worship and the promises; theirs are the fathers and from them is the Christ according to the flesh” (Rom. 9:4-5),

Nevertheless, God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues-such is the witness of the Apostle.
And this last paragraph teaches succinctly what Jesus proclaimed in John 10:16, “I have other sheep that are not of this sheepfold. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.” The Holy Spirit will bring about this prophecy in His time.
In company with the Prophets and the same Apostle, the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and “serve him shoulder to shoulder” (Soph. 3:9).(12)

Sirach, you have not stated anything even remotely saying we all worship the same God.

Did you do your homework assignment? I’m not going to do it all for you - you know…

 

[RosaryCrusader]

I believe this. I believe that we have different beliefs about and opinions of the same God… and although we are all independently convinced that we are correct in our beliefs, there is no way to know. One God, many religions. We’re all in this together.

Illmatic, unfortunately you have taken all of this post-Vatican II modernism to it’s logical conclusion and come up with the error of syncretism. I encourage you to read about your faith because your soul is in mortal danger in holding to something which equates Christ w/ Baal.

II Cor. 6: 14-18:
“Bear not the yoke with unbelievers. For what participation hath justice with injustice? Or what fellowship hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath the faithful with the unbeliever? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols?”

Syllabus or Errors:
*(CONDEMNED)16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. – Encyclical “Qui pluribus,” Nov. 9, 1846. *

Vatican I:
*Consequently, the situation of those, who by the heavenly gift of faith have embraced the catholic truth, is by no means the same as that of those who, led by human opinions, follow a false religion; for those who have accepted the faith under the guidance of the church can never have any just cause for hanging this faith or for calling it into question.
*

Encyclical Mirari Vos - Pope Gergory XVI:
*
13. Now We consider another abundant source of the evils with which the Church is afflicted at present: indifferentism. This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained. Surely, in so clear a matter, you will drive this deadly error far from the people committed to your care. With the admonition of the apostle that “there is one God, one faith, one baptism”[16] may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever. They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that “those who are not with Christ are against Him,”[17] and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore “without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate.”[18] Let them hear Jerome who, while the Church was torn into three parts by schism, tells us that whenever someone tried to persuade him to join his group he always exclaimed: “He who is for the See of Peter is for me.”[19] A schismatic flatters himself falsely if he asserts that he, too, has been washed in the waters of regeneration. Indeed Augustine would reply to such a man: “The branch has the same form when it has been cut off from the vine; but of what profit for it is the form, if it does not live from the root?”[20]
*