If I'm not Catholic, then what am I?

[Gabriel_of_12]

Maybe you should read the entire thread before you jump in with an opinion…

I have, thanks, and I have been waiting to tribute, and found this topic focused on masturbation is not going away fast. So I will yeild to your “judgement” of me and I will reapeat again in case you missed it “Sorry”.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

It was in the OP. I find it illuminating that on the lists of objections people have about Catholic teaching, the teachings on sexuality are embedded under a pile of “theological” concerns. This observations enjoys a sensitivity and specificity of 99.6% with a p value of 0.01.

Yes I recalled it, and I responded days earlier. I agree sexuality is a great topic of theological concerns and does need addressing, as well as Marriage and celibacy. These topics from a Catholic perspective is most valuable if practiced according to Catholic teaching. My interjection was going to deal with the doctrinal aspects, but the sexual orientation has dominated. So I have yeild to the topic at hand, and wondered why masturbation has dominated the topic of one “not being Catholic”

 

[cascherman]

I don’t know if I can be Catholic, because I cannot accept everything that the Church teaches. For one, I can’t accept the teaching that if I commit a grave sin, that Jesus Christ’s forgiveness isn’t enough, and I have to go through a priest, or I’ll go to Hell.

Someone else probably said this already, but this is how Jesus intended forgiveness to work.

The forgiveness of a priest and the forgiveness of Christ are the same forgiveness. It is how it was designed. (Jesus) said to them again,

From John 20

“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

From Matthew 9

And there people brought to him a paralytic lying on a stretcher. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Courage, child, your sins are forgiven.” At that, some of the scribes said to themselves, “This man is blaspheming.” Jesus knew what they were thinking, and said, “Why do you harbor evil thoughts? Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” --he then said to the paralytic, “Rise, pick up your stretcher, and go home.” He rose and went home.

The key in John 20 is the part of so the Father has sent me, so I send you. The apostles received a special authority from heaven to forgive sins. There is a parallel here with Matthew 9 and Luke 5 (essentially same story).

So, again, the forgiveness announced by the priest IS God’s forgiveness. The idea that one should simply pray for forgiveness for any sin and then announce it for yourself is #1) not Biblical and #2) damaging to the idea of forgiveness.

 

[MySavior]

Only Jesus can forgive sins

Col 3:12-13 says,
Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do."

 

[benedictus2]

Col 3:12-13 says,
Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do."

John Chapter 20
On the evening of that first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side.The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “**Receive the holy Spirit. ****23 ****Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” **

 

[MySavior]

John Chapter 20
On the evening of that first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side.The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “**Receive the holy Spirit. ****23 ****Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” **

That must have been a comfort to the disciples that Jesus came to them. I’m sure that the more they saw Jesus, the more they were comforted by His presence. Then, how amazing for the disciples to receive the Holy Spirit and be commssioned by Jesus in such a way. It is no wonder that the apostles had such zeal and passion for the Gospel of Christ. It was what got them through the fires of persecution and death that followed. This is the same love and zeal for Christ and His message of Salvation that we should have today.

For me, the more time I spend with Him in studying His Word and spend with Him in prayer, the me more passion and zeal to share His message. I loved the way that each disciple had the same access to Christ. Thank you Benedicuts2 for the reminder of the wonderful truths that are contained in these Scriptures. Great passage.

 

[jmcrae]

That must have been a comfort to the disciples that Jesus came to them. I’m sure that the more they saw Jesus, the more they were comforted by His presence. Then, how amazing for the disciples to receive the Holy Spirit and be commssioned by Jesus in such a way. It is no wonder that the apostles had such zeal and passion for the Gospel of Christ. It was what got them through the fires of persecution and death that followed. This is the same love and zeal for Christ and His message of Salvation that we should have today.

Jesus was not giving them “comfort” - He was giving His priests the ability to hear Confessions and give the Absolution in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. This is why He tells them, Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.

But why bother to give them this power, if Jesus is just going to override it?

 

[benedictus2]

That must have been a comfort to the disciples that Jesus came to them. I’m sure that the more they saw Jesus, the more they were comforted by His presence. Then, how amazing for the disciples to receive the Holy Spirit and be commssioned by Jesus in such a way. It is no wonder that the apostles had such zeal and passion for the Gospel of Christ. It was what got them through the fires of persecution and death that followed. This is the same love and zeal for Christ and His message of Salvation that we should have today.

For me, the more time I spend with Him in studying His Word and spend with Him in prayer, the me more passion and zeal to share His message. I loved the way that each disciple had the same access to Christ. Thank you Benedicuts2 for the reminder of the wonderful truths that are contained in these Scriptures. Great passage.

This passage must not be confused with the Pentecost in Acts, the descent of the Holy Spirit which was the birthday of the Church.

The giving of the Holy Spirit here is the sign that when the apostles and their succesors forgive our sins or retain them in the sacrament of confession, then they are doing so under the guidance of the Holy Spirit with the specific commissioning by Christ.

They are not forgiving the sins off their own bat, rather in obedience to the Holy Spirit which Christ has specifically bestowed upon them.

You can look at it this way, say you have sinned against your father. But your father has said to your older brother beforehand : “I am going away, but I am giving you the power to forgive those who has wronged me and if you forgive them so do I.” Anyone who comes to the older brother therefore,to ask for forgiveness, and forgiven by the older brother is forgiven by the father.

Jesus did not have to do it this way. But He chose/ willed to do it this way. To go against this, is to go against His Will.

 

[cascherman]

TBolt,

Has this thread helped you in any way with your understanding of Confession or even what you should call yourself?

 

[MySavior]

This passage must not be confused with the Pentecost in Acts, the descent of the Holy Spirit which was the birthday of the Church.

The giving of the Holy Spirit here is the sign that when the apostles and their succesors forgive our sins or retain them in the sacrament of confession, then they are doing so under the guidance of the Holy Spirit with the specific commissioning by Christ.

They are not forgiving the sins off their own bat, rather in obedience to the Holy Spirit which Christ has specifically bestowed upon them.

You can look at it this way, say you have sinned against your father. But your father has said to your older brother beforehand : “I am going away, but I am giving you the power to forgive those who has wronged me and if you forgive them so do I.” Anyone who comes to the older brother therefore,to ask for forgiveness, and forgiven by the older brother is forgiven by the father.

Jesus did not have to do it this way. But He chose/ willed to do it this way. To go against this, is to go against His Will.

I write this with respect Benedictus2, so please do not take this in any other way than the spirit in which I write it.

Just for curiosity, what if the brother doesn’t really like me?

I realize that Pentecost is a separate issue and a separate event. I believe Pentecost was a baptism of power, not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. There are probably some Pentecostals that may disagree with me on this one.

And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit" (John 20:22). The “breathed” that is used here is used no where else in the New Testament. It is the same word that is used in the OT by the Septuagint translators of Genesis 2:7 (I think that’s neat!) “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” I think it’s interesting that He used the same word for the beginning of something important in both cases. On the very day of Christ’s resurrection, the new creation had begun. The same way that Yaweh quickened Adam, is the same way Christ quickened the disciples for service.

In the light of what you say verse 20:23 means, what do you then do with Mark 2:7 "Who can forgive sins but God only?’ I personally don’t believe that God meant to defeat or change this principle when He commissioned His disciples. One of the reasons I believe this is that I don’t see a testimony of this in either the Acts or Epistles to tell me any different. I see again in Acts 13:38 “Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.” I don’t believe He gives the apostles something that in other places he holds for Himself. I believe that this would go against His nature. I personally think that if He had intended for us to be able to forgive sins FOR Him that we would see some examples of it in Acts or in the Epistles.

I do believe that at times it’s important for believers to confess to one another for accountability and for the reasons that are expressed in James 5:16 “Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.”

 

[benedictus2]

Just for curiosity, what if the brother doesn’t really like me?

And that is why He said first, “Receive the Holy Spirit”. A person filled with the Holy Spirit will not act according to likes and dislikes. It is only by the guidance of the Holy Spirit that they are able to do it. By filling them with His Spirit, it is in fact His Spirit in them that gives them the power to forgive sins.

I realize that Pentecost is a separate issue and a separate event. I believe Pentecost was a baptism of power, not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. There are probably some Pentecostals that may disagree with me on this one.

I have noticed that protestants are very much hung up on this “power”. One must understand that Christ’s spirit is a spirit of love. Then again I am probably misunderstanding what you mean by power here. So perhaps you should clarify what you mean by that.

And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit" (John 20:22). The “breathed” that is used here is used no where else in the New Testament. It is the same word that is used in the OT by the Septuagint translators of Genesis 2:7 (I think that’s neat!) “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” I think it’s interesting that He used the same word for the beginning of something important in both cases. On the very day of Christ’s resurrection, the new creation had begun. The same way that Yaweh quickened Adam, is the same way Christ quickened the disciples for service.

You are right here. It is interesting that this is the same word that was used to give life in Genesis. **Sin causes death and that is why Christ’s triumph over sin gives us eternal life. So therefore by giving the disciples the power to forgive sins, he is infact giving them power over death. By forgiving their sins, the disciples are actually given power to give spiritual life. **So you are right, the breathing gives them life.

Your comments completely overlook that the next words He says is "Whose sins you forgive they are forgiven them…". and NOT “I now quicken you for service”. Now why do you overlook that sentence when it is as plain as day?

In the light of what you say verse 20:23 means, what do you then do with Mark 2:7 "Who can forgive sins but God only?’ I personally don’t believe that God meant to defeat or change this principle when He commissioned His disciples.

Please re-read what I posted before. God is still the one who forgives, but He gave this authority to his disciples. What is so hard to understand about this. He Himself said it! If you have an issue with it then you really have an issue with Christ.

One of the reasons I believe this is that I don’t see a testimony of this in either the Acts or Epistles to tell me any different. I see again in Acts 13:38 “Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.” I don’t believe He gives the apostles something that in other places he holds for Himself. I believe that this would go against His nature. I personally think that if He had intended for us to be able to forgive sins FOR Him that we would see some examples of it in Acts or in the Epistles.

I do believe that at times it’s important for believers to confess to one another for accountability and for the reasons that are expressed in James 5:16 “Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.”

This all becomes NON-SEQUITUR because we already have it straight from Christ’s mouth that He does give the power to forgive sins to his disciples.

This is the problem with protestantism. When a passage does not suit your own pre-conceived notions, then you overlook it or twist it around. Rather than allowing the Bible to speak its truth, you muzzle it, unless it speaks only the half truth that you want it to say.

 

[Aramis]

This question is for all Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant Christians on this board. I’d love to have your oppinion on this.
So, if I’m not Catholic, then what am I? Should I try an Orthodox church?

No. Your heresy about confession is just as heretical there.

You’re catholic, but holding on to a heretical belief.

 

[jmcrae]

I write this with respect Benedictus2, so please do not take this in any other way than the spirit in which I write it.

Just for curiosity, what if the brother doesn’t really like me?

This makes his forgiveness of your sins on behalf of your father all the more powerful, because you know then that it is your father’s love that he is imaging to you, and not his own. (This is one reason why it is a very powerful experience, to confess your sins to a priest who doesn’t like you very much.)

I realize that Pentecost is a separate issue and a separate event. I believe Pentecost was a baptism of power, not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. There are probably some Pentecostals that may disagree with me on this one.

Pentecost is when the Holy Spirit came upon the whole Church.

And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit" (John 20:22). The “breathed” that is used here is used no where else in the New Testament. It is the same word that is used in the OT by the Septuagint translators of Genesis 2:7 (I think that’s neat!) “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” I think it’s interesting that He used the same word for the beginning of something important in both cases. On the very day of Christ’s resurrection, the new creation had begun. The same way that Yaweh quickened Adam, is the same way Christ quickened the disciples for service.

And what was Christ’s mission, that the Disciples were undertaking? (The forgiveness of sins.)

In the light of what you say verse 20:23 means, what do you then do with Mark 2:7 "Who can forgive sins but God only?’

In that passage, Christ shows that He has the authority to forgive sins, not only in His divinity, but also in His manhood. It follows then from that, that, having the authority, He is able to pass it on to others - namely, His disciples.

I personally don’t believe that God meant to defeat or change this principle when He commissioned His disciples. One of the reasons I believe this is that I don’t see a testimony of this in either the Acts or Epistles to tell me any different. I see again in Acts 13:38 “Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.” I don’t believe He gives the apostles something that in other places he holds for Himself. I believe that this would go against His nature. I personally think that if He had intended for us to be able to forgive sins FOR Him that we would see some examples of it in Acts or in the Epistles.

The text itself is very plain. Jesus is giving them the ability to forgive sins in Confession.

I do believe that at times it’s important for believers to confess to one another for accountability and for the reasons that are expressed in James 5:16 “Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.”

And who is more righteous than God’s priest?

 

[MySavior]

I have noticed that protestants are very much hung up on this “power”. One must understand that Christ’s spirit is a spirit of love. Then again I am probably misunderstanding what you mean by power here. So perhaps you should clarify what you mean by that.

I am speaking of the power of the Holy Spirit that the Disciples used in Acts to heal, speak in tongues, miracles, etc.

Please give me your take on Mark 2:7 “Who can forgive sins but God only?” It sounds counter to your interpretation of John 20:23.

God is still the one who forgives

So which is it? You say that God is still the One who forgives. But I thought the whole idea of what we were discussing here is that priests are the one who forgive, on a co-equal basis with God.

I believe the same as you that the Bible does speak Truth and that the Holy Spirit reveals Himself to true believers when they read His Word. That is why I believe that you have to take into account the rest of the Bible when you look at this issue. I see in Acts the power of the Holy Spirit manifested, but not in the way that you say it does, an Apostle offering forgiveness in the Father’s place. I believe in the ability of the believer to truly forgive another for sins that are committed against them. I can forgive on a personal level, but I cannot forgive on God’s behalf. Believe me when I say that there are some pretty horrendous things that have been done against me over the years. I know that it is only by the power of Holy Spirit that I have been able to forgive them at all. Before I came to a saving faith in Christ, I could not have done that.
The bottom line is that God’s Word does not mention priests, nuns, monks or popes or anyone forgiving a person of their sins on God’s behalf. If this was of grave importance, why did God not teach the Disciples to do this? He did spend time teaching them to love one another, to serve one another, to spread the Gospel and other things, but NOT to forgive sins for Him, or listen to confessions.

 

[jmcrae]

I am speaking of the power of the Holy Spirit that the Disciples used in Acts to heal, speak in tongues, miracles, etc.

Please give me your take on Mark 2:7 “Who can forgive sins but God only?” It sounds counter to your interpretation of John 20:23.

The people who were saying that were the unbelievers, though. Jesus proved to them that He had authority to forgive sins in his humanity as well as in His divinity, by healing the paralytic.

So which is it? You say that God is still the One who forgives. But I thought the whole idea of what we were discussing here is that priests are the one who forgive, on a co-equal basis with God.

The priest doesn’t forgive our sins separately from God, or instead of God. Rather, he is the instrument that God uses for His forgiveness.

What is your take on the plain sense of the words, “What sins you forgive are forgiven, and what sins you retain are retained.”

Obviously, this cannot be referrring to personal forgiveness of sins against ourselves, since we are commanded in the Lord’s Prayer to forgive all offenses against ourselves.

So, Jesus is not teaching them that they can retain sins that have been committed against themselves, since in the teaching on the Lord’s Prayer, He tells them that any sins they don’t forgive against themselves will be held against them in the Judgment as if they themselves had committed them - which means that God does not retain these sins in Heaven.

Therefore, what sins does God retain, when the Disciples retain them? Obviously, sins that are confessed to them by other people, where a greater remedy is needed than just Confession.

 

[benedictus2]

Please give me your take on Mark 2:7 “Who can forgive sins but God only?” It sounds counter to your interpretation of John 20:23.

Well take that up with Jesus Christ Himself because He is the one who said it. You have an issue with Jeus not with the Church because the words were all utterances by Christ IN THE BIBLE

---

So now you are saying that Jesus is contradicting Himself. Haven’t I just given you a plain enough explanation? Re-read my post about how Mark2:7 gells with John 20:23.

 

[MySavior]

Pentecost is when the Holy Spirit came upon the whole Church.

Aren’t you part of the Church? If you are, then the Holy Spirit has come upon or “indwelt” you too. You receive the Holy Spirit at the time of your salvation.

Wasn’t it the Great Commission? To make disciples that make disciples.

In that passage, Christ shows that He has the authority to forgive sins, not only in His divinity, but also in His manhood. It follows then from that, that, having the authority, He is able to pass it on to others - namely, His disciples.

You make it sound like a trip to Frosty where you get 1/2 chocolate and 1/2 vanilla in the same scoop. It’s actually more like 1 scoop of vanilla and 1 scoop of chocolate in the same cup. Jesus was 100% man and 100% God.

And who is more righteous than God’s priest?

I think you need to be very careful here when you follow a man instead of Christ. Romans 3:23, 3:10. There is no one who is righteous.

[/QUOTE]

 

[jmcrae]

I think you need to be very careful here when you follow a man instead of Christ. Romans 3:23, 3:10. There is no one who is righteous.

I am not following a man “instead of” Christ; I am following a man TO Christ. There is a big, huge difference, here.

 

[MySavior]

I am not following a man “instead of” Christ; I am following a man TO Christ. There is a big, huge difference, here.

Can’t you follow Christ on your own? I talk to Him everyday and communicate with Him everyday. He speaks to me through His Word, through circumstances and through the Holy Spirit. Christ is my innercessory straight to the Father. Why put a man in the middle if it’s not required? I go directly to the Lord when I have sinned and ask His forgiveness for whatever I have done.

I have enjoyed discussing this with you jmcrae. Thanks for the back and forth.

 

[MySavior]

Well take that up with Jesus Christ Himself because He is the one who said it. You have an issue with Jeus not with the Church because the words were all utterances by Christ IN THE BIBLE

---

So now you are saying that Jesus is contradicting Himself. Haven’t I just given you a plain enough explanation? Re-read my post about how Mark2:7 gells with John 20:23.

I don’t agree with your take on this, you don’ t agree with mine, but it has been good to have a discussion. Neither one of us appears willing to move. Thank you for your willingness to at least discuss it.
:thankyou: