If I'm not Catholic, then what am I?

[jmcrae]

Can’t you follow Christ on your own?

Nope. Too much of a sinner, and too prone to walk in the way that seemeth right. (Proverbs 14:12)

Alone, I am a fool, but In the multitude of counsellors, I find wisdom. (Proverbs 11:14)

That’s why I need the Church.

 

[jmcrae]

I don’t agree with your take on this, you don’ t agree with mine, but it has been good to have a discussion. Neither one of us appears willing to move. Thank you for your willingness to at least discuss it.
:thankyou:

Before you bow out, can you answer what your interpretation is of “What sins ye forgive are forgiven, and what sins ye retain are retained”? If not the plain sense of their meaning?

 

[Ag_not]

I go directly to the Lord when I have sinned and ask His forgiveness for whatever I have done.

But we are told to confess our sins to one another. Leviticus 5: 5-6. man must confess his sin, bring a guilt offering to the lord, and the priest will make atonement for him. So from the OT we can see to be forgiven, we have to 1. confess, 2. do penance 3. receive atonement/absolution from the priest. This foreshadows the set up that God was going to instigate in the NT:

James 5 16 - we are to confess our sins to one another.
1 John 1 v9 if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins.
Matthew 9 v6-8. Jesus proved he had the authority to forgive sins on earth and the crowd were afraid and glorified God that he had given such authority TO MEN
John 20 v21-23. As the father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending out the apostles, and who’s sins they forgive they are forgiven, and those retained are retained.

The formula in the OT - confess to the priest, give a guilt offering, priest interceeds for atonement for the sinner.

Formula in the NT - confess to the priest, the PRIEST has the AUTHORITY, given to HIM by JESUS to FORGIVE the SINS of the SINNER, do penance.

Seems straightforward to me - but what do I know

 

[guanophore]

I go to a mentor to get baptised, and I dont get laid to rest I just die. Do you know where the sacraments came from or what they really stand for, they come from mithraism.

A “mentor”??? what is that? There is no such position in the Church.

You are right, you just die, and your loved ones lay you to rest, more for their benefit than yours.

The sacraments came from Christ.

The fact that they were forshadowed earlier in mithraism or any other dim shadow notwithstanding.

 

[benedictus2]

I don’t agree with your take on this, you don’ t agree with mine, but it has been good to have a discussion. Neither one of us appears willing to move. Thank you for your willingness to at least discuss it.
:thankyou:

It’s not about “takes”. It’s about TRUTH. I do believe that you if you could delete Jesus’s words from the Bible you would.

You really are not following Jesus because you do not want to listen to HIS WORDS.

You refuse to listen to Christ and His words in the Bible because that would mean admitting you are wrong and that would shatter your doctrine of ‘Sola Ego’.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t know if I can be Catholic, because I cannot accept everything that the Church teaches. For one, I can’t accept the teaching that if I commit a grave sin, that Jesus Christ’s forgiveness isn’t enough, and I have to go through a priest, or I’ll go to Hell.

Jesus decided to make His forgiveness available to us through the priest. He makes provision, however, so those that do not have access to a priest can still be saved.

I also can’t accept the Catholic teachings about holy days of obligation, because it seems to contradict scripture.

Do you think we should neglect the assembly of ourselves together, as is the habit of some?

I also have great trouble accepting that things like masterbation are sinful, let alone mortal sins.

I suggest you read Theology of the Body by JP II. You will have a whole new understanding of human sexuality.

1 Cor 6:13
The body is meant not for fornication but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.

One must ask the question, how does masturbation glorify the Lord? How does this use of the Body give ourselves in worship to Him?

1 Cor 6:20
20 For you were bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body.

I sit on the fence when it comes to birth control though.

To understand this, one must understand the Jewish attitude toward children. A human life is formed when the sperm penetrates the egg. Most birth control terminates this life. However, when you study Theology of the Body this will make more sense also.

I agree with most of the Catholic teachings about Mary. I believe that she’s the mother of the Church and Mother of God, that there’s nothing wrong with asking her to pray for me, and I believe that the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption are very possibly true, because of Marian apparitions that support them. Whether I’m Catholic or not, I still desire to pray the Rosary, and possibly have other Marian devotions. I don’t have a problem with the sacrament of Confession, because of John 20:21-23,

YOu sound more Catholic than a lot of “Catholics”!

but I also think that Jesus Christ’s forgiveness is just as good or better than absolution from a priest. I also believe in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist.

I think the only problem you are having here is that you are seeing some difference of separation between the Sacrament of Reconciliation and forgiveness from Jesus. They are one and the same. Jesus forgives sins through the priest. The priest participates in His eternal priesthood.

John 20:22-23
22 When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Only God can forgive sins. It is only by His God Breathed Power that those appointed by HIm can forgive sins.

So, if I’m not Catholic, then what am I? Should I try an Orthodox church?

You are more Catholic than maybe you realize. Why would you even consider leaving the Church founded by Christ?

 

[MySavior]

Before you bow out, can you answer what your interpretation is of “What sins ye forgive are forgiven, and what sins ye retain are retained”? If not the plain sense of their meaning?

It refers to the great responsibility that is put upon the disciples as messengers of the Gospel which offers pardon for sins to those who accept it. The pardon is through the message that the disciples would deliver to the lost. It’s the same expression that was used in Leviticus 13 when a Hebrew priest pronounced a leper to be clean or unclean. It is clear that the priest could not do the cleansing, or free him from the contamination. It was merely his job to declare that the man was clean from the disease. The Apostles were unable to remit men’s sins either, but they declared that it is God who does.

In the Acts and Apostolic Letters there is not a single case where confession was recommended in this fashion, nor do we find that they confessed to any person.

In Acts 8:22 Peter told Simon to :Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." He did not say to him: go at once and confess your sin to this or the other Apostle, but “pray to God.”

This seems so clear to me. For a non-Catholic to buy what your take on this is, I think that you would need to show a place in Acts or the Epistles where a priest was used in this fashion. He would not have given the disciples this power and then not have this power shown to be used IMHO.

Now, I’m humbly bowing out. Again, thanks for your back and forth conversation and the politeness with which you expressed your views. It’s appreciated.

 

[benedictus2]

It refers to the great responsibility that is put upon the disciples as messengers of the Gospel which offers pardon for sins to those who accept it. The pardon is through the message that the disciples would deliver to the lost.

What’s so hard to understand about the word YOU? It says "Whose sins YOU forgive they are forgiven them. Whose sin YOU retain, they are retained. It is the disciples who are being given the power to forgive and retain sins.

Christ did NOT say “who soever believes in the gospel and accept through it’s message will be forgiven”:.

Sweetheart, these are HIS words and you’re messing it up.

 

[guanophore]

Mithraism? Even Protestants don’t believe that!

The vast majority of Protestants have never even heard of Mtihra.

The truth is that there are many rituals within Mithraism that prefigure the Christian Sacraments. As Scripture testifies, The God of Creation is revealed in the things that have been made.
Those entering the mysteries of Mithra passed through a chamber in which they were “cleansed” by the pouring of blood.

Evidence of similarities between Christianity and Mithraism appears about 100 years AFTER the Resurrection. The Mithra cult borrowed from Christianity. Lord: thank you for non-Catholics who actually DO have a CLUE!

The facts of eternal salvation exist in the collective unconscious of humanity, in every age, and every time.

Thanks for all your excellent posts, mercygate.

 

[benedictus2]

Please give me your take on Mark 2:7 “Who can forgive sins but God only?” It sounds counter to your interpretation of John 20:23.

So which is it? You say that God is still the One who forgives. But I thought the whole idea of what we were discussing here is that priests are the one who forgive, on a co-equal basis with God.

Every year, around Christmas and sometimes Easter, I would send some money to my country of birth for the poor and needy there. I will give this money to my niece and I will tell that it is up to her what she does with it. She can use it to feed the street kids, give some to the paraplegics, whatever. It is all at her discretion because I know she will do the right thing.

Although she is the one doing the dispensing, it is still my money that she is giving away. Is that analogy clear enough for you to reconcile John and Mark?

The forigveness that the disciples are giving is God’s forgiveness, not their own.

 

[guanophore]

I still disagree. Do you have a basis for saying this? Do you have a medical degree?

Just because the mentally ill masturbate does not mean that those who masturbate are mentally ill. Also masturbation without lusting after someone is different than masturbation out of boredom.

I agree that those who masturbate are not necessarily mentally ill. However, it is still a grave disorder and misuse of the God given gift of sexuality,which is intended for the union of one man, and one woman. I am not pursuaded that masturbation witout lstuing is different than masturbation out of boredom. As a matter of fact, I am not so sure there is any such thing as ‘boredom’. I think this is a human description for a condition in which a person is avoiding deeper feelings. However, that is far removed from this thread. For the OP, I would say that masurbation is an activity that is solely focused on the pleasure of self, not that of God.

" I appeal to you therefore, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds, so that you may discern what is the will of God — what is good and acceptable and perfect." Rom 12:1-2

I cannot see how this activity is consistent with presenting one’s body as a living sacrifice, or being a form of spiritual worship…well to God anyhow. I can easily see how it might be a worship of the self, or the evil one, but not to God/

 

[benedictus2]

I agree that those who masturbate are not necessarily mentally ill. However, it is still a grave disorder and misuse of the God given gift of sexuality,which is intended for the union of one man, and one woman. I am not pursuaded that masturbation witout lstuing is different than masturbation out of boredom. As a matter of fact, I am not so sure there is any such thing as ‘boredom’. I think this is a human description for a condition in which a person is avoiding deeper feelings. However, that is far removed from this thread. For the OP, I would say that masurbation is an activity that is solely focused on the pleasure of self, not that of God.

" I appeal to you therefore, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds, so that you may discern what is the will of God — what is good and acceptable and perfect." Rom 12:1-2

I cannot see how this activity is consistent with presenting one’s body as a living sacrifice, or being a form of spiritual worship…well to God anyhow. I can easily see how it might be a worship of the self, or the evil one, but not to God/

:clapping:

 

[jmcrae]

It refers to the great responsibility that is put upon the disciples as messengers of the Gospel which offers pardon for sins to those who accept it. The pardon is through the message that the disciples would deliver to the lost. It’s the same expression that was used in Leviticus 13 when a Hebrew priest pronounced a leper to be clean or unclean.

YES, exactly!!

Notice that this wasn’t done “in general” or as part of a large meeting. It was done in person, with a personal examination by the priest. The priest didn’t give a talk to the whole group on how to know if you are clean from leprosy, and then the lepers looked at themselves and declared themselves clean - no!

What happened was, the leper made a private appointment with the priest, the priest then examined him thoroughly, and the priest made the official declaration, whether the person was clean, or not.

EXACTLY like the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

NOTHING AT ALL like the Protestant custom of allowing people to decide for themselves whether they are sinners or not, after teaching the people in a sermon to the whole group what sin looks like.

It is clear that the priest could not do the cleansing, or free him from the contamination. It was merely his job to declare that the man was clean from the disease. The Apostles were unable to remit men’s sins either, but they declared that it is God who does.

Yes - and in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, the priest gives us the words of God’s forgiveness. The Sacrament of Reconciliation isn’t “instead of” confessing our sins to God - it’s how we confess our sins to God - and, like the Old Testament priest who examines the lepers and declares them either clean or unclean, the priest examines us and declares us either to be forgiven, or explains to us what else needs to be done before we can be forgiven.

In the Acts and Apostolic Letters there is not a single case where confession was recommended in this fashion, nor do we find that they confessed to any person.

There are many details of the life of the Christian community that aren’t mentioned in the New Testament - it also never mentions that any of them used the bathroom; would you conclude that, therefore, they never used the bathroom?

The New Testament was never intended to be a “how to” book on how to run the day to day operations of the Church. It is a memoir of the sayings of Jesus Christ, and a general exhortation to holiness of life. The details of how to run the Church were passed down by seeing and doing, in an apprenticeship model, rather than a book-learning model. The Early Church had Confession to a priest because they learned it by watching the Apostles. They didn’t just invent it out of thin air.

As time went on, people began to write down instructions on how to go to Confession, in order to teach their children and to teach new converts - we start to find these in the late 100s AD. But it’s pretty clear from the writings that there was no innovating going on - the people writing these things down had been doing them all of their own lives, and had learned them from the previous generation, who had also been doing it all of their lives, which puts us well back into the Apostolic age.

In Acts 8:22 Peter told Simon to :Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." He did not say to him: go at once and confess your sin to this or the other Apostle, but “pray to God.”

Simon was already talking to Peter at the time - why should he tell him to go to Confession, when he is already in Confession?

 

[benedictus2]

There are many details of the life of the Christian community that aren’t mentioned in the New Testament - it also never mentions that any of them used the bathroom; would you conclude that, therefore, they never used the bathroom?

:extrahappy:

 

[TBolt1000T]

Thanks to everyone for all the help. Please see the thread below for the progress I’m making.
Eucharistic Adoration is Giving Me a Much Needed Boost.

I’m still struggling with some things, but I’ve decided not to give up, and things are definitely getting easier.

 

[mercygate]

Thanks to everyone for all the help. Please see the thread below for the progress I’m making.
Eucharistic Adoration is Giving Me a Much Needed Boost.

I’m still struggling with some things, but I’ve decided not to give up, and things are definitely getting easier.

Watch out if things are getting easier!

Say: do you have someone – a pastor or advisor – who could give you man-to-man counsel? Sometimes “face time” makes all the difference.

 

[TBolt1000T]

Mercygate, why should I watch out if things are getting easier?

I do have a priest that I can talk to at my parish, and I also have the RCIA coordinator, and all of my friends in class. I also have my Catholic friends from this site and others, and locally.

 

[Joe_Keenan]

The premise of your question is flawed; you’re already Catholic. You’re more Catholic then many Catholics. Regarding confession, see Matt 16. Christ gives Peter the Keys and the power to bind and loosen. The Keys represent his God given authority to act in place of The King (see Isiah?). The power to bind and loosen is the foundation for Confession. That’s the Readers Digest version, there’s some great books out there.

 

[mercygate]

Mercygate, why should I watch out if things are getting easier?

I do have a priest that I can talk to at my parish, and I also have the RCIA coordinator, and all of my friends in class. I also have my Catholic friends from this site and others, and locally.

I was half joking about being careful if things are getting easier – Old Scratch loves to wiggle in where you are starting to feel comfortable.

But if you have a lot of backup, people who are spiritually astute and have experience with the kinds of things that you are wrestling with, then you are in good shape. For my :twocents: I would like you to have access to a good pastoral person: a priest or Religious. Someone who is experienced in the discernment of where your struggles are coming from and can counsel you on working through them.

 

[benedictus2]

Thanks to everyone for all the help. Please see the thread below for the progress I’m making.
Eucharistic Adoration is Giving Me a Much Needed Boost.

I’m still struggling with some things, but I’ve decided not to give up, and things are definitely getting easier.

Praise Him! All you Peoples Praise Him!:extrahappy: :heaven: :harp:

Tears of joy well in my eyes as I write this.

Oh how wonderful is our most loving God.