If I'm partially Cafeteria should I leave the church?

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Disheartened

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What about someone like myself who is questioning the Church on some things. For instance I think it’s ok to miss Mass just because of many things and it’s not a mortal sin. If you’re exhausted and want to stay home on Sunday I think it’s okay, since the original thing God wanted was for people to rest. Some people just can’t bear to leave their home on Sunday and they want to sleep.

Also, I think birth control use isn’t a mortal sin. I look at it more as an ideal, but there are alot of variables. Some people are just so darned fertile, they have strong sexual desires. Sex is a strong instinct, but it’s just not practical to have alot of kids these days and not everyone is disciplined enough to be organized to do the natural way.

I suspect that Christ is probably present when other churches have their communion. I just can’t believe the Jesus would not come to them too, even if they don’t believe in the Catholic Church.

I also think that people purely get saved by grace, and that it doesn’t matter if they’re bapitized, and that God is easy going and doesn’t want people in Hell.

another thing is that I don’t really think that the Old Testament is divinely inspired. I think the Old Testament Jews had alot of archaic and superstitious customs, and were to harsh in their laws. I think alot of those old Jewish laws were purely cultural. After all, they don’t even mention the Trinity in the Old testament.
 
Sounds more like you’re questioning the Church on most things, not just some! Not least of all you’re questioning the Church’s authority to make decisions regarding faith and morals. Barely any of that spiel even sounds remotely Christian to me in any broad sense-let alone Catholic.

The remark about the Jews not mentioning the Trinity sounds to me like maybe you need to make a better attempt to learn your faith… from the beginning… and in depth. You’ll find the answer to just about every question you can think of if you try. You’ll also find that every question you answer brings even more questions, but trust me, they do have answers-if you care to find them.
 
Disheartened said:
What about someone like myself who is questioning the Church on some things. For instance I think it’s ok to miss Mass just because of many things and it’s not a mortal sin. If you’re exhausted and want to stay home on Sunday I think it’s okay, since the original thing God wanted was for people to rest. Some people just can’t bear to leave their home on Sunday and they want to sleep.

Also, I think birth control use isn’t a mortal sin. I look at it more as an ideal, but there are alot of variables. Some people are just so darned fertile, they have strong sexual desires. Sex is a strong instinct, but it’s just not practical to have alot of kids these days and not everyone is disciplined enough to be organized to do the natural way.

I suspect that Christ is probably present when other churches have their communion. I just can’t believe the Jesus would not come to them too, even if they don’t believe in the Catholic Church.

I also think that people purely get saved by grace, and that it doesn’t matter if they’re bapitized, and that God is easy going and doesn’t want people in Hell.

another thing is that I don’t really think that the Old Testament is divinely inspired. I think the Old Testament Jews had alot of archaic and superstitious customs, and were to harsh in their laws. I think alot of those old Jewish laws were purely cultural. After all, they don’t even mention the Trinity in the Old testament.
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Of course you shouldn’t leave. Don’t let the silly people on this board confuse you. They are not the Church.

At the same time, aren’t you open to the possibility that you are wrong on some of these points? I’m not Catholic, but even I think you are a bit confused on what your own Church teaches (the Catholic Church does not teach that all the unbaptized go to hell, and it has always taught that many of the Jewish laws were specific to that culture, though the principles behind them are universal). And where you do disagree with the Church, you surely recognize that you are not infallible, which means that the Church might after all be right.

That being the case, why leave? Go to Mass, do works of charity, seek the truth with all humility. You can’t go wrong on that path.

Edwin
 
Why do you assume you’re opinions are correct before making yourself aware of the reasons for what you object to?
If you educate yourself better, you may find that you agree w/ the Church.
God only wants what’s best for people. He made us, he knows us better than we know ourselves. He gave us the Church to guide us because he loves us. He shows his love for us in the laws of the Church.
 
Disheartened said:
What about someone like myself who is questioning the Church on some things. For instance I think it’s ok to miss Mass just because of many things and it’s not a mortal sin. If you’re exhausted and want to stay home on Sunday I think it’s okay, since the original thing God wanted was for people to rest. Some people just can’t bear to leave their home on Sunday and they want to sleep.
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And that becomes a habit and leads to slothfulness and loss of faith and finally damnation. Not such a good thing. The commandment of God to “keep holy the Sabbath day” is still in effect. If we don’t attend Mass, we rob ourselves of the graces of the Mass–like depriving ourselves of needed food and then saying we can be healthy without it.
Also, I think birth control use isn’t a mortal sin. I look at it more as an ideal, but there are alot of variables. Some people are just so darned fertile, they have strong sexual desires. Sex is a strong instinct, but it’s just not practical to have alot of kids these days and not everyone is disciplined enough to be organized to do the natural way.
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Unless you yourself are having a problem in this area it is not for you or me to tell people what they can do to slide by on this issue or any other. People can learn self control, and no one will die if they can’t have unbridled sex whenever they want it. We have to learn to grow up instead of pander to our every passion.
I suspect that Christ is probably present when other churches have their communion. I just can’t believe the Jesus would not come to them too, even if they don’t believe in the Catholic Church.
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Only because at every hour of every day Mass is being offered around the world. Protestant communions are, at best, spiritual communions that draw any good they have from the Mass, whether they know it or not, for Christ established one Church not many that all believe something different from one another.
I also think that people purely get saved by grace, and that it doesn’t matter if they’re baptized, and that God is easy going and doesn’t want people in Hell.
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Jesus himself established baptism as the means of imparting saving grace to souls. God is indeed merciful, but he is also a God of justice–he will not condemn those who would have been baptized if they had known about it and/or had had the opportunity to be baptized. That’s right in the Catechism (which I think you should read). He is the judge of hearts, not us.
another thing is that I don’t really think that the Old Testament is divinely inspired. I think the Old Testament Jews had alot of archaic and superstitious customs, and were to harsh in their laws. I think alot of those old Jewish laws were purely cultural. After all, they don’t even mention the Trinity in the Old testament.
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In the times of the OT the age of grace had not yet come to man, which is why justice was immediate and harder than it is now that Christ has come and revealed the love of the Father in his, Christ’s life, death, resurrection and ascension. The Trinity was not revealed to the Jews directly, but the seeds are in the OT for those who bother to look for them. But, in any case, Jesus was God’s last word to man, and since he revealed the inner life of God as trinitarian, we believe it to be true.
 
I would keep seeking truth with all humility. Search any way you can, and search with a true desire to learn why people believe these things, or why the Church claims these things, rather than reading with the belief that you are right and the Church is wrong.

As far as the OT, Jesus himself said He came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it. So why if it were just superstition would Jesus quote it, fulfill it, and not even try to abolish it.

I would also continue talking to a priest, maybe these things will clear up on their own.

You are in my thoughts and prayers.

A lone Raven
 
Just this weekend, my pastor gave a homily on the rich young man. He related it to…Cafeteria Catholics, oddly enough. He did not say that they ought to leave the Church.

Remember how Jesus told the man that he lacked one thing, to sell all he had and come follow him? Anything that is keeping us away from Jesus, we should “sell” and go follow him. Anything you leave behind, mothers, brothers, houses, etc. will all come back to you, even more than you had. Some of the Cafeteria issues are hard and involve giving something up.

So you know where to look the parable up, it is in Mark10:17-30 abouts.
 
Well…Let’s see what John Martignoni says on this topic jsut to get a perspective:
Apologetics 101-04
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Q: As Catholics, do we have to accept everything the Church teaches?

A: If you want to call yourself Catholic, but you want to pick and choose for yourself which of the Church’s teachings to accept and which to reject, you give everyone else who calls themselves Catholic the right to do the same thing.

For example, you believe women should be priests…in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1577 states, “Only a baptized man validly receives ordination…For this reason the ordination of women is not possible!” You don’t believe that…well, that’s fine…[RIP] just tear that page out of your Catechism…you just made it a Catechism of your Catholic Church…not mine.

But remember, if you can throw doctrines out, so can everyone else who calls themselves Catholic. That gives Joe Parishioner over at St. Doubting Thomas Catholic Church the right to throw out the Church’s social justice teachings…he doesn’t feel like feeding the hungry, caring for the poor, and all that other “bleeding heart” stuff - Paragraphs 2401 -2463 [RIP]…he just made it a Catechism of his Catholic Church…not mine and not yours.

You believe contraception is okay? Paragraph 2370 says contraception is intrinsically evil! [RIP] Joe Parishioner doesn’t like what the Church teaches on the death penalty - Paragraphs 2266-2267**[RIP]**. You don’t like what it teaches on pages 55-60 [RIP]. He doesn’t like what it teaches on pages 128-140 [RIP]

Can you see what’s happening? I heard it said once that there is a shortage of vocations to the priesthood in the United States, but no shortage of vocations to the Papacy! If we don’t believe in all of it, if we each appoint ourselves Pope and throw out a doctrine here or a doctrine there, then our faith is no longer Catholic.John makes a very good point. My philosophy is that if I have a question as to why the church teaches something, then the responsibility (as a Catholic) is mine to look into the reasons for those teachings and inform my faith so that it amkes sense. I have discovered that the church does not teach anything, “just for drill”.
Blackie
 
I think it unlikely there is a Catholic on earth who isn’t just a bit “cafeteria”. At least it’s true in the sense that we all rebel, in one way or another. This doesn’t seem right; that is too big a pain; who is “that guy” telling me what I should do with my life? We all do that. I am going to have to confess that I have a fair amount of “cafeteria” in me. Used to have quite a bit more.

I suspect I’m a bit older than you and, if so, this might not mean much to you, but someday it will. I’m not the dumbest guy I ever knew. I was a pretty good scholar and have done pretty well in my profession. I don’t think there is a single thing in academe or in my profession that I haven’t questioned at minimum or thought stupid and maximum. And lots of times, those in academia or in my profession couldn’t defeat my arguments. It wasn’t just the Church that I questioned and doubted and argued with and fought.

But the older I get, the more I realize that my “reinvented wheels”, so cleverly designed, were not a bit better than the wheels that already existed. In fact, I found at some point that, oops! I overlooked this, or that didn’t work out, or this and that just didn’t fit together, or didn’t operate when they did fit together. As has been the case with academic or professional matters, I have found that I cannot possibly outthink all who went before me in all but minute ways at best. In religion, I have found that a goodly number of my well-thought objections to this or that which the Church teaches have blown up in my hand like a lit firecracker thrown too late.

Birth control is but one example. Everyone was so liberated by it. And now, Europe is almost certain to be taken over by Islamic radicals precisely because its population is imploding. It is almost certainly the beginning of the end for them. The firecracker blew in their hand.

Eventually, my wife and I, who were so very progressive, decided we would give up birth control. We did have children but guess what? We discovered with the last one that my wife has a neurological disorder that nearly killed her. One’s vulnerability to it increases with age. Had we not been so “smart” when we were younger, we would have been able to have more children than we did; children we wanted. One more firecracker in the hand.

Intellectually, it is sometimes hard to accept some things the Church teaches. But how does one make anything else work? One can even deny the existence of God, but then one has to explain how the universe, and we, came to exist without God. Another “reinvented wheel” that just doesn’t turn well enough to support a cart.

At a point then, I decided it was simply wiser morally to follow the Church’s teachings.So now, I guess, I am a stodgy old, much chastened “cafeteria Catholic”… Oh, I still question this and that, but everytime I really pursue the questioning deeply, there is either a firecracker or a wheel that doesn’t turn.

Anyway, you know, the real beauty of the Church is that it is Jesus’ way of forgiving us for our incredible vanity; a fault we find very hard to truly escape. It has become a great comfort to me in my life that I no longer have to be “right”. I can just accept forgiveness and ask for faith, and that’s all that’s really required of me. Fortunately, the Church provides “easier” ways for us to do that than to reinvent the moral wheel.

Hope this helps. Don’t give up, and I trust God will provide many surprising answers for you in time.
 
Of course you shouldn’t leave. My post isn’t scolding you or anything. Please read.
If you’re exhausted and want to stay home on Sunday I think it’s okay, since the original thing God wanted was for people to rest. Some people just can’t bear to leave their home on Sunday and they want to sleep.
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Does your parish not offer a vigil? Or a mass that would fulfill the obligation at any other time than early Sunday morning? At most parishes I’ve heard of there’s a mass the Saturday before, a couple Sunday morning, and one or two Sunday evening. Granted I live in a highly populated dioceses. But you can probably sleep in and still attend Mass, the Church doesn’t try and make it difficult.
Sex is a strong instinct, but it’s just not practical to have alot of kids these days and not everyone is disciplined enough to be organized to do the natural way.
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I’m an 18 year old American Male. I definitally know how difficult it is to be disciplined and how strong an instinct it is. But we have to be disciplined. It’s also easier to eat chocolate cake and ice cream all the time, but we have to discipline our bodies in order to be healthy. We have to discipline our minds and bodies to keep a healthy soul.
I suspect that Christ is probably present when other churches have their communion. I just can’t believe the Jesus would not come to them too, even if they don’t believe in the Catholic Church.
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But a lot of them don’t WANT Christ to be present, except symbollically. They’ve said “We don’t beleive Christ is actually present here”. I will fully stand by you saying that they can have a Christian life and that Jesus is present and active in their life. I just don’t believe He is as active as He could be.
I also think that people purely get saved by grace, and that it doesn’t matter if they’re bapitized, and that God is easy going and doesn’t want people in Hell
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Well their are Bible verses that support necessary Baptism. And if you think about it, yes, we are saved by grace. The grace that comes to us through baptism. The baptism is our request for that grace. As to God being easy going, read Leviticus and Numbers, look at how exact God is in what He wants (though you’ve also stated you’re not sure about their inspiration, so that may not help you much). Of course God doesn’t want people in Hell! He came down HIMSELF (despite what Arians believe) to Earth. Cried and prayed till his sweat was like blood. Was dragged through a humiliating trial. Was whipped while tied to a pillar, had thorns pounded into his head. Nails driven into his hands and feet, was hung against rough wood, and finally had a spear thrust into his side. All to try and keep people from Hell.

LoL, sorry, I think I got my preach on for a second. But please don’t leave. I can’t answer your Old Testament questions, I’m not a great Bible Scholar, but I will pray for you. I hope you don’t feel like I’m yelling at you or trying to scare you or anything, I just truly believe that the Truth is found in the Catholic Church, and you already have it. I’ll pray for you.
 
While I’m sorry you are questioning your beliefs in the Catholic Church, it’s ok to have questions or doubts, but please seek to understand what the Church teaches.🙂
If you’re exhausted and want to stay home on Sunday I think it’s okay
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There are valid reasons for missing Mass, I would never want to intentionally miss Mass, but there are times when I’m sick or the kids are sick or I’m on-call with a job critical to the community. This is stated in the Catechism too.
Also, I think birth control use isn’t a mortal sin. I look at it more as an ideal, but there are alot of variables. Some people are just so darned fertile, they have strong sexual desires. Sex is a strong instinct, but it’s just not practical to have alot of kids these days and not everyone is disciplined enough to be organized to do the natural way.
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Too much of what you have stated here is wrong. I would invite you to read Chris Wests’ book “The Good News about Sex and Marriage”, it is based on Pope John Paul II Theology of the Body. This will answer many of your questions.
I suspect that Christ is probably present when other churches have their communion. I just can’t believe the Jesus would not come to them too, even if they don’t believe in the Catholic Church.
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Again, the Church does state that God is present in other churches and even other religions…however, it is in the fullness of the Sacraments that we experience Christs Grace. There ARE other ways in which God bestows His Grace, anything less would be an attempt to confine God to our guidelines. But remember, it was God who gave us the Sacraments. Furthermore, some other chuches throw away any left over ‘hosts’ and pour the ‘blood’ down the drain:confused: I guess Jesus wasn’t present there.
Another difference; when a pastor (non-catholic) stops preaching and retires they are no longer a member of the clergy. When a priest retires, he is still a preist until his death, because once ordained he becomes consecrated forever…big difference! This points to the Catholic Church as being above and beyond that which is offered by many other churches.
I also think that people purely get saved by grace, and that it doesn’t matter if they’re bapitized, and that God is easy going and doesn’t want people in Hell.
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Yes and no; God wishes all will be in heaven, but he also said you must be baptized to get into heaven. Baptism of water and spirit, of desire and of blood.
another thing is that I don’t really think that the Old Testament is divinely inspired. I think the Old Testament Jews had alot of archaic and superstitious customs, and were to harsh in their laws. I think alot of those old Jewish laws were purely cultural. After all, they don’t even mention the Trinity in the Old testament.
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So the whole, God telling Moses to write this and tell the people that didn’t really happen? They wouldn’t have known about the Trinity since God had not revealed himself in the flesh.

Well, good luck and may God bless you. Keep asking questions, but never give up on the truth. The Truth is Christ, ‘it is upon this rock I will build MY Church’

Scott
 
Just remember that the overwhelming majority of Catholic couples use some form of birth control, and not NFP. So you are not alone there. They haven’t left, so why should you?
 
What always raises my eyebrows is when I hear “I think” this or that when the things involved are teachings of the Church. Shouldn’t the next question be, “but who are YOU?” Did Jesus found his Church on YOU? Did Jesus promise to lead YOU into all truth?

And well, gee, if not, then are you maybe following the wrong leader in this case (i.e. YOURSELF).

There’s one Rock on earth and his seat is in Rome!

Thank goodness. Makes life a lot easier! 🙂
 
Hi disheartened,
while I cannot endorse “cafeteria” Catholicism, I would urge you not to leave the Church. It seems to me like you’re having a crisis of faith, and I don’ t think there is a Catholic on this planet who hasn’t had his or her doubts on something or other at some point in their Christian walk.
I would urge you first of all to pray daily, and not merely prayers from a prayer book. TELL the Lord that you are confused about some things and ask him to show you why the Church teaches what it does. If you persevere in prayer, He WILL reveal the Church’s truthfulness to you eventually. I am living proof of that.
As for being exhausted on Sunday mornings, boy can I EVER relate to THAT. Have you considered attending the Saturday evening vigil Mass ?? For me that is a blessing, and I attend it regularly. I suffer from depression, am on medications, and after a grueling work week I simply cannot bring myself to get up early on either Saturday or Sunday, my body is just too exhausted.
Please consider the Saturday evening Vigil Mass. It satisfies the Sunday obligation. I love it.
There are two books I would strongly recommend to you,simply because they are outstanding explanations of Catholic teaching.
One is the 1949 edition of Father Connell’s confraternity edition of
The Baltimore Catechism No. 3 with Mass, it’s available from
amazon.com and it is well worth the investment. It’s not a mere question-and-answer catechism, the answers are detailed and are followed by learning exercises. I love this book, and I’m a Vatican II Catholic !! The second book, which is beyond superb is THE CATECHISM EXPLAINED by Spirago, which is also available from amazon.com (the link above). I can’t believe how thorough and enlightening this book is and cannot recommend it highly enough. Also, there is a protestant book on birth control called THE BIBLE AND BIRTH CONTROL which is helpful. Please, pray, study, and go to Mass (on Saturday evening when you’re not so burned out!!). We’ll all be praying for you. God be with you and bless you.
Love,
Jaypeeto4 (aka Jaypeeto3)
 
Disheartened said:
What about someone like myself who is questioning the Church on some things. For instance I think it’s ok to miss Mass just because of many things and it’s not a mortal sin. If you’re exhausted and want to stay home on Sunday I think it’s okay, since the original thing God wanted was for people to rest. Some people just can’t bear to leave their home on Sunday and they want to sleep.

Also, I think birth control use isn’t a mortal sin. I look at it more as an ideal, but there are alot of variables. Some people are just so darned fertile, they have strong sexual desires. Sex is a strong instinct, but it’s just not practical to have alot of kids these days and not everyone is disciplined enough to be organized to do the natural way.

I suspect that Christ is probably present when other churches have their communion. I just can’t believe the Jesus would not come to them too, even if they don’t believe in the Catholic Church.

I also think that people purely get saved by grace, and that it doesn’t matter if they’re bapitized, and that God is easy going and doesn’t want people in Hell.

another thing is that I don’t really think that the Old Testament is divinely inspired. I think the Old Testament Jews had alot of archaic and superstitious customs, and were to harsh in their laws. I think alot of those old Jewish laws were purely cultural. After all, they don’t even mention the Trinity in the Old testament.
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Should you leave the Church? By no means. You need the Church now more than ever. Face it. You have a pulse and are a thinking human being. It is perfectly normal to question and wonder. Strive to gain a better understanding of what the Church teaches on these things, even if you don’t quite agree with it at the time. Pray. Above all things, continue to draw close to Christ in the Sacraments. God be with you.
 
Disheartened said:
What about someone like myself who is questioning the Church on some things. For instance I think it’s ok to miss Mass just because of many things and it’s not a mortal sin. If you’re exhausted and want to stay home on Sunday I think it’s okay, since the original thing God wanted was for people to rest. Some people just can’t bear to leave their home on Sunday and they want to sleep.

Also, I think birth control use isn’t a mortal sin. I look at it more as an ideal, but there are alot of variables. Some people are just so darned fertile, they have strong sexual desires. Sex is a strong instinct, but it’s just not practical to have alot of kids these days and not everyone is disciplined enough to be organized to do the natural way.

I suspect that Christ is probably present when other churches have their communion. I just can’t believe the Jesus would not come to them too, even if they don’t believe in the Catholic Church.

I also think that people purely get saved by grace, and that it doesn’t matter if they’re bapitized, and that God is easy going and doesn’t want people in Hell.

another thing is that I don’t really think that the Old Testament is divinely inspired. I think the Old Testament Jews had alot of archaic and superstitious customs, and were to harsh in their laws. I think alot of those old Jewish laws were purely cultural. After all, they don’t even mention the Trinity in the Old testament.
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You need to learn the foundations of your faith. You have a lot of prayer and study ahead.
 
Disheartened said:
What about someone like myself who is questioning the Church on some things. For instance I think it’s ok to miss Mass just because of many things and it’s not a mortal sin. If you’re exhausted and want to stay home on Sunday I think it’s okay, since the original thing God wanted was for people to rest. Some people just can’t bear to leave their home on Sunday and they want to sleep.

Also, I think birth control use isn’t a mortal sin. I look at it more as an ideal, but there are alot of variables. Some people are just so darned fertile, they have strong sexual desires. Sex is a strong instinct, but it’s just not practical to have alot of kids these days and not everyone is disciplined enough to be organized to do the natural way.

I suspect that Christ is probably present when other churches have their communion. I just can’t believe the Jesus would not come to them too, even if they don’t believe in the Catholic Church.

I also think that people purely get saved by grace, and that it doesn’t matter if they’re bapitized, and that God is easy going and doesn’t want people in Hell.

another thing is that I don’t really think that the Old Testament is divinely inspired. I think the Old Testament Jews had alot of archaic and superstitious customs, and were to harsh in their laws. I think alot of those old Jewish laws were purely cultural. After all, they don’t even mention the Trinity in the Old testament.
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What a change from your previous thread! (I know, I just read and didn’t post.)

It is good to question all of these things. Please look for good Catholic resources and REALLY understand what the Church’s teaching are. I pray you don’t leave the Church, but you at least owe it to yourself to know what you are really leaving.

On a personal note, as a cafeteria, cradle Catholic (having never been properly taught much of our faith), it was the teachings on sex/marriage which brought me into full acceptance of ALL the teachings. (A great book on that is Good News about Sex and Marriage by Christopher West.) When I learned how true, liberating, important these teachings are, I was able to learn that I can trust the Christ’s teachings in the Church.

Now, perhaps your particular area will be different from mine. Only you will find that out in your study. My only cautions would be to avoid the dissenting opinion as you are trying to find out the Truth at this point and to begin every time you are searching for answers by asking the Holy Spirit to show you HIS truth.
 
Everyone questions their faith. The difference in some is, while questioning we still follow, accept, and practice what the church teaches.
It is when you don’t follow, accept, and practice the problems happen.

A long time ago people decided they didn’t like what the Catholic Church was doing and or teaching. They wanted change. What did they get? about 100,000 new denominations. (I don’t know the numbers)
 
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