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MartinJordan
Guest
Do you think Islam would have survived today?
I think not.
Simply because the Quran mentions him more than Mohammed.
MJ
I think not.
Simply because the Quran mentions him more than Mohammed.
MJ
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Nine_Two
Guest
If he hadn’t had Christianity to give him ideas, who knows if he would have managed to found Islam.
Had he ignored Jesus when he created the koran, it probably would have spread, although they wouldn’t have that lie they often use in proselytizing about following Jesus.
Had he ignored Jesus when he created the koran, it probably would have spread, although they wouldn’t have that lie they often use in proselytizing about following Jesus.
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MartinJordan
Guest
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Augustine3
Guest
Mohammed got the bulk of his information by interacting with heretical Christians on his travelling route when he used to trade as a merchant.
God bless,
God bless,
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OxygenMan
Guest
There were also significant numbers of Jews in Arabia at the time, and he was exposed to the prophets that way.
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Augustine3
Guest
The big questions we Christians cannot seem to find a satisfactory answer to is:
Where precisely did Mohammed get these “revelations” from. We Christians do not believe they were from the angel Gabriel…so where did he get them from?
Where precisely did Mohammed get these “revelations” from. We Christians do not believe they were from the angel Gabriel…so where did he get them from?
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MartinJordan
Guest
This makes wonder whether these Jews ever even talked about Jesus or disregarded him. Mohammed would have wondered why this the case right?
MJ
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
Do you mean “it would have survived up until today,” or “it would not survive today”?
If the former, I think it would have survived. The spreading of Islam wasn’t like the spreading of Christianity under the apostles and the first few generations of Christians.
If the latter, that’s an interesting question. It certainly would not have as much spread in western society, which is being infiltrated with postmodern thought and the idea that so long as you mention the name “Jesus,” you might as well just be considered a Christian. I’m sure it would still be around, in the same manner Sikhs and other faiths are.
All lies, of course, come from Satan, and so we have here two options: 1) Mohammad really did have a spiritual encounter in the desert, only it was the devil disguised as an angel of light (2 Co 11:14); 2) Mohammad made it all up, in which case he was tempted by the devil and permitted to fall into greater and greater error. Seeking to become wise, he only became a greater fool.
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MartinJordan
Guest
I didn’t think of the latter to be honest.
The question of the former part is what according to the Quran has words that were attributed to Jesus?
Meanwhile, my view is that since there were more Christians believers (calling themselves with a focal point that is Jesus Christ) as compared to pagan Arabs (who had no name to call themselves…I think), Jesus had to be part of the “formula”
MJ
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
One thing is for certain, there are no direct quotes to the New Testament in the Quran (or the Old Testament, for that matter). Half of the time, when “Jesus” is “quoted,” it is more so as an argument against the Christian position (look, for example at S. 5:116).
There were definitely different branches of Christianity and Judaism in the Arab peninsula (some orthodox, some not), and given Mohammad was preaching monotheism, it probably assisted in trying to appeal to both. Most of the passages in the Quran that speak kindly of Jews and Christians were the ones Mohammad revealed early on in his “prophetic career,” when he was trying to get them on his side and he didn’t have much power in Mecca. In Medina, when he had more power, he started to be a bit more confrontational, and then by the time he had retaken Mecca and the Jews/Christians clearly weren’t impressed with Mohammad’s so-called prophesies, that’s when all the troublesome passages in the Quran started to be revealed. That’s also when you start getting stories in the ahadith or Mohammad telling his followers not to bother reading the Torah and Gospels, since they had the Quran (even though Quranic passages revealed earlier told Muslims to read them).
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TeenageConvert
Guest
I’m fairly certain it was a demon. Mohammad didn’t even believe that it was from God until his wife convinced him so, and the “angel” started choking him when he initially didn’t believe(both according to Islamic tradition)
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Reuben_J
Guest
From a Christian perspective, we can never reconcile that to anything from God because we are told that new revelation ceased with Jesus Christ. Any revelation that denies the pasion,death and ressuraction of Jesus is contrary to Christian truth but more so, only the Evil One would promote this lie to nullify the victory of Jesus on the cross.
So perhaps, Christians disposition to this is that the revelations are not authentic. From where it came from, maybe we cannot be sure. Mohammad is a poetic person with an imaginative mind. Even if he really received the revelations from another being, it would take such a man to remember them. But for us, it is enough to know that we do not believe in this revelation whether it is from the Evil One or from the figment of Mohammad’s imagination.
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Rugged military states which islam spawned don’t go away because they don’t recognise Jesus. Well they will evetnually but they can still flourish. In fact I suspect in this hypothetical world of an islam that did not recognise the Isa of the quran, who is not the Jesus or Yeshua of History, it would have given the muslims even more of an excuse and we would be counted as pagans instead of people of the book.
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Aaronmc90
Guest
Having Jesus in islam actually hurts the credibility of muhammed more than helps, since Jesus’ message should coincide with muhammeds at least on some level, and it does not, even in the most heretical sects of Christianity throughout the centuries, none of them conform to the islamic Jesus, the Jesus of islam is not a historical figure and the information about him in the Quran can not be taken seriously as it contradicts everything, said by everyone, no matter who it was, before.
As far as muhammeds sources, well he lived around Christians, Jews and pagans, and lo and behold, you find elements of all three in Islam, the pagan hajj, Jesus, Moses, often times lifting stories from sources like the Midrash (Midrash Bereishit has a story of abraham breaking idols and mocking the pagans for their beliefs, the story is found verbatim in the quran)
This offers some good insights into the spurious stuff he copied.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legends_and_the_Quran
Everything is referenced
As far as muhammeds sources, well he lived around Christians, Jews and pagans, and lo and behold, you find elements of all three in Islam, the pagan hajj, Jesus, Moses, often times lifting stories from sources like the Midrash (Midrash Bereishit has a story of abraham breaking idols and mocking the pagans for their beliefs, the story is found verbatim in the quran)
This offers some good insights into the spurious stuff he copied.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legends_and_the_Quran
Everything is referenced
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Reuben_J
Guest
Islam acknowledges the ‘people of the book’ as those people whose religions that were handed down by the prophets, for Islam recognizes these prophets as messengers of God. But it believes that all the original messages of these prophets which were written in holy scriptures have been lost in their original forms through corruption of the scriptures along the passage of time. Thus according to Islam, there is none in existence of the original revelations as found in the written scriptures.
When the Quran was revealed it was the final revelation that once and for all to correct what had been lost. The people of the book then were supposed to follow Islam and those that did not were considered kufurs (rebellious infidels). I don’t know whether Muslims would say this openly as it may not be politcially correct but they do not consider the present day Jews, Christians or Zaorastians (spelling?) as the people of the book where that special privilege is being accorded to. No, privately if they are candid enough, they would say we are the infidels who reject the message of Allah as revealed to Mohammad and therefore are the enemy of Islam.
When the Quran was revealed it was the final revelation that once and for all to correct what had been lost. The people of the book then were supposed to follow Islam and those that did not were considered kufurs (rebellious infidels). I don’t know whether Muslims would say this openly as it may not be politcially correct but they do not consider the present day Jews, Christians or Zaorastians (spelling?) as the people of the book where that special privilege is being accorded to. No, privately if they are candid enough, they would say we are the infidels who reject the message of Allah as revealed to Mohammad and therefore are the enemy of Islam.
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smaneck
Guest
It also talks more about the Virgin Mary than does the New Testament.
As for not saying much about Muhammad, that is as we would expect. The Qur’an is revealed through Muhammad, after all.
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smaneck
Guest
Actually, there isn’t that much evidence of Christian influence. Certainly there were some Christians in Mecca, including Khadijah’s uncle but the only role he appears to have played was to assure Muhammad that his vision of the Archangel Gabriel was real. However, a lot of stories about Jesus were floating around Arabia at the time.
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smaneck
Guest
And your evidence for this is? There is at least some evidence that there were some Christians that had a heretical view of the Trinity (which included the Virgin Mary) but I know of no evidence that Muhammad had any extensive interactions with Christians when he drove caravans.
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smaneck
Guest
They must have because the Qur’an reports that Jews were bragging about having crucified him.
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smaneck
Guest
Except his contact with Jews does not occur until the Medinian period and the Qur’an speaks of prophets well before then. There appears to have been a movement among Arabs prior to Muhammad which recognized the Hebrew prophets as well as Christ but did not consider themselves either Jews or Christians. These people were called Hanifs.
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