"If it FEELS good, then it must be right." -Mormons

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ParkerD said:
JeanMichel,

It is clear based on the posts of several people conversing on other threads where I have participated, who have scorned the idea of a “burning in the heart” or a “burning in the bosom”, that this is not something that is taught very much to Catholics, or if it is it may be taught with such a large “grain of salt” that it would be like not teaching it at all because there must be complete sincerity, faith and righteous desires or the “burning in the bosom” will not come to a person. The level of doubt that I have seen expressed would explain why that is not a common experience.

Those folks having not experienced this, would logically scorn such an idea and rely on reasoning, the teachings they have understood and agreed with from the Bible, and tradition as the primary basis for their “faith”. It basically answers the question you had posed on the other thread, also.

Have a great week.
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Parker, if I were looking for an emotive high, I would listen to licentious music or go to a dramatic film intended to provide that effect - not to Church. But seeing as we are looking for God, who is not obessed with feelings, but cares for the Truth, then it follows that Catholics are not effeminates because it is not God’s will for Catholics to be effeminate. You can try to call yourself a man while parroting all this emotive rubbish, but you will still look like a girl, and God Himself has breathed in nature shame on and for any man who appears thusly.

I hope that gives you some funky feelings.

Pax Christi,
Tim
 
JeanMichel said:
Alas my brother, I have not only read it, but studied it. Your ability to “reason” by taking stipping a quote or two does not equate to having read it; that is philosophy 101. Regardless, it seems your “reason” differs greatly from my my own and from several scholars. Suffice it to say that I am less than confident in your position. There is no need for futher conversation; let us agree to disagree.

Let us move on.
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If you studied it then you should provide the quote(s) that show Pope John Paul stating clearly when faith is enough and when reason fails.

My point being the Catholic Church teaches us to use both faith and reason as God designed and gave them to us to use. Mormons do not. They use faith contrary to God’s design. Here is an example of a Mormon using reason on the wrong object which is contrary to God’s design:
JeanMichel said:
Please prove that God exists.
Please prove that Moses existed.
Please prove that God has power.
Please prove the difference between priesthood power and faith.
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JeanMichel said:
Please prove that God exists.
Please prove that Moses existed.
Please prove that God has power.
Please prove the difference between priesthood power and faith.

Should I go on?
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But what would all of that change? I mean Jesus was God made Man and was still rejected. People saw Jesus use his power he cured people. he gave that power to his Apostles to cure people. They saw it for their own eyes and still rejected God.

Faith comes from Grace given to you by God. But you can accept that grace or reject that grace. God gave you free will.

Love and Faith cannot be proven. How could I prove to someone that I loved them? Buy them thing;s. say it, do thing’s??? That can be a total like. Only your heart knows if you truly love someone. Love like faith cannot be proved.

The difference between Priesthood power and faith are easy to prove. Jesus said that what my Father has given to me, I now give to you. My faith cannot give your absolution from your sins, but Priesthood power, power to forgive sins in the name of Christ can. That power is given by the Laying of hands (Holy orders),

If proof that God exists would make a difference then what happened to the devil? Do you not agree that he KNOWS that God exists. But it does not change a thing, he saw Jesus himself and still rejected God.🤷
 
ParkerD said:
JeanMichel,

It is clear based on the posts of several people conversing on other threads where I have participated, who have scorned the idea of a “burning in the heart” or a “burning in the bosom”, that this is not something that is taught very much to Catholics, or if it is it may be taught with such a large “grain of salt” that it would be like not teaching it at all because there must be complete sincerity, faith and righteous desires or the “burning in the bosom” will not come to a person. The level of doubt that I have seen expressed would explain why that is not a common experience.

Those folks having not experienced this, would logically scorn such an idea and rely on reasoning, the teachings they have understood and agreed with from the Bible, and tradition as the primary basis for their “faith”. It basically answers the question you had posed on the other thread, also.

Have a great week.
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The difference I see is not that Catholics don’t “feel” God in their life, as if our faith is so dry that it is simply a matter of belief in doctrines and following rules. Parker, you have never experienced the sacrament of Reconciliation or the sacrament of the Eucharist. At the risk of appearing “effeminate” I will tell you that there is no greater “feeling” than walking out of the confessional after a good confession knowing that you have been forgiven, and resting, once again in our Father’s arms. An even deeper experience is that of receiving Christ in the Eucharist. I have been brought to tears on more than a few occassions. This experience is certainly deeper than words can express and there is no doubt that the Holy Spirit testifies to this deep reality within our hearts.

The difference is that when we feel that we are being prompted by the Holy Spirit to go one direction or the other, we measure what we believe we have received against what we know to be true. It is called spiritual discernment and is all important in making sure that the voice we are hearing is the voice of God. We believe God speaks to us constantly. We also know that, as humans, we may confuse that voice with our own voice, or with the voice of the evil one who “appears as an angel of light.”

My point is that Mormons don’t have an exclusive on receiving a “testimony” form the Holy Spirit. We have a responsibility to make sure of who’s testimony we are actually receiving and we do this through both faith and reason.
 
Timothy17 said:
Parker, if I were looking for an emotive high, I would listen to licentious music or go to a dramatic film intended to provide that effect - not to Church. But seeing as we are looking for God, who is not obessed with feelings, but cares for the Truth, then it follows that Catholics are not effeminates because it is not God’s will for Catholics to be effeminate. You can try to call yourself a man while parroting all this emotive rubbish, but you will still look like a girl, and God Himself has breathed in nature shame on and for any man who appears thusly.

I hope that gives you some funky feelings.

Pax Christi,
Tim
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At one time I worked at a place that was owned by the Mormon church, so, the majority of people who worked there were Mormon.

A friend of mine started working at the same place. After a few weeks she commented to me that she was more masculine than any of the men who worked there. 😃
 
Faith does indeed incorporate reason…look at the readings of the Old Testament – proverbs, wisdom, Sirach…

The human being was born with a brain to use. You can’t call faith in itself emotive. Christ came to save and redeem the total person. When the Church was becoming established, it allowed more people to let go of defending and hiding themselves to avoid persecution, and thus one began to challenge his bishop, Arian…that Christ may have had a beginning. If Christ had a beginning from God, then He could have an end from God, making Him more a creature than God Himself.

That is was one of the issues that brought about the Council of Nicea…Christ is joined with God the Father/Creator, and through Christ the Creator made this world. Jesus is the Incarnate Word of God, ‘I Am Who Am’, and from the Father and Son, the Holy Spirit proceeds…all in the state of being, eternal, no yesterday or 24 hours today or future.

The English Mass is now returning to the word of consubstantiation…meaning Christ is of the same substance of God the Father and proceeding in the Holy Spirit—Who moves in His state of being through creation and through us.

The Holy Spirit did not stop after the apostles died.

Metaphysics can take either stand to prove that God does not exist, or as St. Thomas provided in his Summa, metaphysics can prove God as the Cause. St. Thomas referred to God as the Unmoved Mover. A young person searching for truth found everything relative…the only constant was God.

The ancient Arabs studied Aristotle, Plato, Ptolemy, the Neo-Platonists along with the Greek and other philosophers. St. Justin the Martyr was a Samaritan and a philosopher.

To have a belief system requires some degree of reason. The later Islamicsts became afraid of philosophy for fear it would be used to disprove the existence of God.
 
If we follow our emotions as the final confirmation of faith, it inclines us to eventually seek that what appeases us or makes us comfortable, or makes us want to shut out unpleasant thoughts or realities…

It can lead to a willful ignorance refusing to learn about other cultures or religions…or Christianity itself. Willful ignorance can be akin to sin when people willfully refuse to learn the truth about other religions.

I see this happening in Mormonism’s history and in other fundamentalist churches. They have beliefs about Catholicism because they were systematically taught to hold such beliefs.

I have seen people who are very spirit filled to the point of being emotive…‘don’t tell me that, I don’t want to have my peace disturbed’…when addressing bad conditions people are living in…and thus such people seek a prosperity minded Gospel. I know about such missions people are in, but their dialogue engaging in a deeper thinking only go so far.

What about the Cross, carrying the Cross…it can be very uncomfortable, and even distrubing. We all have our own experiences…family members, neighbors, co-workers who are difficult and affect unity and harmony. If I feel disturbed by such, if it is so painful – emotionally, then is it flight?

Thinking outside the box would appear to go against using reason and searching deeper for the truth.

When I checked out the link yesterday, and what i have seen on BYU, and I have shared this observation before, that Mormons tend to appear insulated, and this insular perspective…in my life experience, is usually do to an emotive based approach to life.

I wasn’t clear when I said looking at the Mormon link yesterday that I didn’t see depth or breath of perspective…Don’t talk about this, don’t bring that up, don’t rock the boat…drawing on Scripture quotes but without the context and perspective…

I must say the Catholic faith has experienced tremendous help in developing our intellect through the Catholic clergy. It provided higher institutions of learning for people of humble means in Europe, and made Mexico the center of learning for the New World, women and girls given right to an education by Bishop Zumarraga who is now becoming a saint.

Then there is Mary of Guadalupe who came to Mexico…and caused much emotion and sentiment of feeling in me, when I learned its history, studied Aztecan culture, and then saw how she came to communicate with them.

There is so much to learn about Catholicism. That is the great loss of Mormonism denying we are apostate…

I saw on the same link, going through the pages, the Mormon expression of sorrow for our apostasy…a misdirected compassion nevertheless…
 
ParkerD said:
Those folks having not experienced this, would logically scorn such an idea and rely on reasoning, the teachings they have understood and agreed with from the Bible, and tradition as the primary basis for their “faith”. It basically answers the question you had posed on the other thread, also.

Have a great week.
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“Y’all aren’t feeling like I think you should.” Is the biggest BS I’ve seen here in a long time.

Telling people how they should feel, and then turning to others to explain how other people are feeling AND WHAT THIS MEANS is the hallmark of Mormonism.

It is also one of the things that marks Mormonism as a cult.

BTW: did you challenge JeanMichael to a baptismal date yet?
 
And looking at feelings is also the great shut down on thinking and using reason…and what happens to people when they reject Judeo Christianity, a total of 5600 years, and then try to revise everything…

And to have an antagonistic attitude to Christians as being of the great apostasy…us…anyone who is Catholic…(Why aren’t the Orthodox never getting flack like the Latins do???)…and all our ‘daughters’…

Who is labelling who?

Lord Jesus, bless the Mormon people, and renew their minds with truth and holiness, now and forever. May they begin to see light that Christ and His Holy Spirit have always been with us, and that we desire their companionship as brethren.

Amen.
 
Someone revived the thread about the topic under discussion at lds.net. It is in the lds gospel discussion forum and is titled: Warning: New False Doctrine Going Around.
 
ADouglass said:
Someone revived the thread about the topic under discussion at lds.net. It is in the lds gospel discussion forum and is titled: Warning: New False Doctrine Going Around.
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Very interesting. :hmmm: And I thought they could really care less. There’s a pat on the back for CAF!
 
Stepping…back to the LDS link warning people about another false idea going around…

I read further into it, and somebody brought up the apostasy…how we lost the faith…and they feel so sorry for us…

But they just used simple Scripture quotes…and very simple…and very nice.
 
ADouglass said:
Someone revived the thread about the topic under discussion at lds.net. It is in the lds gospel discussion forum and is titled: Warning: New False Doctrine Going Around.
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I looked on the “gospel discussion” forum and couldn’t find it. Can someone help me.
 
KathleenGee said:
Stepping…back to the LDS link warning people about another false idea going around…

I read further into it, and somebody brought up the apostasy…how we lost the faith…and they feel so sorry for us…

But they just used simple Scripture quotes…and very simple…and very nice.
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Yeah, I’ll just leave those folks to their discussions.
 
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