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Neoplatonist
Guest
Kind of depends. If them not loving me would mean they suffered torment in the lake of fire for all eternity, then I would rather save them from that and feel unloved.
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Neoplatonist
Guest
Part of the argument seems to be missing in your reply, though. Consider: if Eve was able to stain every child born henceforth with the mark of original sin, why wasn’t Mary’s act sufficient to make all children born henceforth free from the stain?
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Neoplatonist
Guest
The world presents trials and tribulations enough to generate numerous stories. Hardly seems necessary to also hobble us at the outset.
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roseproject
Guest
Are you saying that Mary could’ve sinned if she wanted to? I’ve never really thought about this.
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PumpkinCookie
Guest
Excellent question. I’ve been thinking about this very same issue for many years. I don’t have a good answer unfortunately, but it does seem like there should be a good answer. It seems to me like St. Thomas says that God is not obligated in any way to save everyone or create the best logically possible world, so he can allow original sin to be the cause of so much ruin without being guilty of neglect. I agree with you that it seems like everyone would be better off if we were all created in a state similar to what the church asserts for Mary, but maybe God doesn’t have to do what is best for us. There is also reason to be skeptical about whether a world of marys would in fact be better than this one. I struggle with the idea that God can be called “loving” or “just,” especially perfectly so, if he has the ability to make a better world and yet has refrained. Maybe it is true that he doesn’t owe anything, but it certainly seems like a good father wouldn’t excuse his refusal to help his suffering children by appealing to his lack of obligation toward them.
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awke
Guest
Are you proposing that those conceived without sin only love God because He’s made them (or forced them)?
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Coder
Guest
“Why not us?” I think it relates to our free will. I am not aware that Mary ever lost her free will yet she always chose God’s will.
Perhaps a better title for this thread would be “Why don’t we always use our free will the way that Mary did?”
Perhaps a better title for this thread would be “Why don’t we always use our free will the way that Mary did?”
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Memaw
Guest
It wasn’t God’s will. He wants us to choose to LOVE Him. He gave us Baptism and Confession to keep us on the right tract to HIM and the other Sacraments to assists us. His son died for our sins. Are we not grateful for all the Blessings He gives us?? Our free will is a great gift, it’s up to us to use it for HIM and for our Eternity. God Bless, Memaw
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petra22
Guest
Are you saying God did not make a perfect world???
Many of us fall into this trap of thinking if WE WERE GOD, WE COULD HAVE DONE A BETTER JOB OF CREATING AND MAINTAINING THE WORLD…
I think it’s because we can’t see the whole picture LIKE GOD CAN…
God did create a perfect world. He knows what is going on. EVEN things that seem bad to us have a reason in GOD’S eyes and just because WE can’t see it or reason it out or explain it… doesn’t mean God did a bad job.
IF WE WERE GOD… IF WE WERE GOD…
Do we LOVE EVERYONE? God DOES!
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petra22
Guest
“Why not us?” I think it relates to our free will. I am not aware that Mary ever lost her free will yet she always chose God’s will.
Perhaps a better title for this thread would be “Why don’t we always use our free will the way that Mary did?”
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oldcelt
Guest
I think everyone has forgotten one very important factor…the Christian God is omniscient. So, he knew what was going to happen before he even started creation. Not a flattering picture, IMHO.
John
John
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PumpkinCookie
Guest
I think the OP is implying that if we were all given as much grace as Mary was, and without the handicap of original sin, then we would have the increased freedom to avoid sin and do what is good. This would result in a better world for everyone, even God (if God loves us as in desiring what is best for us).
Is it fair to say Mary remained sinless her whole life because of the extraordinary gift of grace given to her by God?
If so, why does it have to be an extraordinary gift? Why can’t everyone have been given enough grace to avoid all sin? Why does God choose to allow people to be “born in sin,” commit sin and harm others for an entire lifetime, and then spend an eternity tormented in hell, when it seems like he could have just given everyone enough grace to avoid this all, freely. If Mary had free will and was able to avoid all sin, it was only because of her extraordinary grace. We are not** free to avoid sin according to the teaching of the church as I understand it (pelagianism). It is an entirely appropriate question to ask, why not?
Indeed, St. Augustine couldn’t understand why, for instance, Jesus chose to heal or forgive only a relative few in his time on earth, when he had infinite knowledge and power to do otherwise. One could excuse Jesus by saying he didn’t want too much publicity or similar, or that widespread healing would be detrimental to his primary message. BUT, it seems like God could have and should have created each of us with enough grace to freely love him and avoid sin.
Instead, we are BORN broken, sinful, and guilty of hell. Let that sink in. Just by being conceived, you deserve hell. Look it up. Original sin is a mortal sin. The Baltimore Catechism explains this directly. Though the new catechism says original sin “doesn’t have the character of a fault,” it is a direct reversal of what St. Thomas teaches in the Summa, precisely that original sin is in fact a mortal sin with the character of a personal fault. God allowed all of us to be created in this condition. But, he saved Mary. Why not everyone?
I don’t feel a particularly strong need to defend my assertion that God has not created the best possible world. I think anyone can imagine a logically possible better world. In fact, a world where just one fewer person is tormented in hell forever would be better. A world where just one fewer child starves to death would be better.
Certainly, a world full of people free from original sin and with the grace-filled freedom to avoid actual sin would be absolutely better.
Is it fair to say Mary remained sinless her whole life because of the extraordinary gift of grace given to her by God?
If so, why does it have to be an extraordinary gift? Why can’t everyone have been given enough grace to avoid all sin? Why does God choose to allow people to be “born in sin,” commit sin and harm others for an entire lifetime, and then spend an eternity tormented in hell, when it seems like he could have just given everyone enough grace to avoid this all, freely. If Mary had free will and was able to avoid all sin, it was only because of her extraordinary grace. We are not** free to avoid sin according to the teaching of the church as I understand it (pelagianism). It is an entirely appropriate question to ask, why not?
Indeed, St. Augustine couldn’t understand why, for instance, Jesus chose to heal or forgive only a relative few in his time on earth, when he had infinite knowledge and power to do otherwise. One could excuse Jesus by saying he didn’t want too much publicity or similar, or that widespread healing would be detrimental to his primary message. BUT, it seems like God could have and should have created each of us with enough grace to freely love him and avoid sin.
Instead, we are BORN broken, sinful, and guilty of hell. Let that sink in. Just by being conceived, you deserve hell. Look it up. Original sin is a mortal sin. The Baltimore Catechism explains this directly. Though the new catechism says original sin “doesn’t have the character of a fault,” it is a direct reversal of what St. Thomas teaches in the Summa, precisely that original sin is in fact a mortal sin with the character of a personal fault. God allowed all of us to be created in this condition. But, he saved Mary. Why not everyone?
I don’t feel a particularly strong need to defend my assertion that God has not created the best possible world. I think anyone can imagine a logically possible better world. In fact, a world where just one fewer person is tormented in hell forever would be better. A world where just one fewer child starves to death would be better.
Certainly, a world full of people free from original sin and with the grace-filled freedom to avoid actual sin would be absolutely better.
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phil19034
Guest
ahhhh… but we are only in the middle of the movie… Only God knows the ending, but I bet it won’t be a tragedy.
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phil19034
Guest
- God did give us enough Grace to become holy. Reason I know this to be true (thanks to Matthew Kelly) is this: Can you be holy for one moment? Not a year, not a month, not a week, not a day, not an hour, not a minute, but for one moment in time? Yes. Everyone can choose to do that. Once you choose to do that once, you can choose to do it again. And then again and again and again. Next thing you know, you are living several holy moments each day which allows you to live a holy life. Matthew Kelly said, the saints didn’t live holy lives, they lived lives filled with holy moments, enough holy moments that we consider their lives to have been holy.
- Three people were given the Grace you speak of. Adam, Eve and Mary. Only one didn’t sin. Lack of original sin didn’t prevent Adam & Eve from sinning. Finally, Mary didn’t sin because God knew that if Mary was granted the gift of the Immaculate Conception, she would choose not to sin, unlike Adam and Eve who were Immaculately created, yet still sinned.
- Finally, original sin causes death. If we were all immaculately conceived, would we grow old and die And if 2/3s of immaculately conceived humans can sin… would we want to live in a world filled with 2/3 mortal sinners who are almost immortal?
God Bless.
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phil19034
Guest
Yes. Mary had free will and could have sinned just like Adam & Eve. However, God selected Mary because he knew she would choose NOT to sin.
Therefore, the extra Graces she was given was not to make her a better human, but to make her the New Ark of the Covenant.
God Bless.
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oldcelt
Guest
That’s alright, I don’t believe god has anything to do with it in the first place,
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tonyrey
Guest
In other words you agree with Schopenhauer that it would be better if life - including yours - had never existed on this planet…
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tonyrey
Guest
In other words “god” serves no useful purpose…
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tonyrey
Guest
If God had created Mary in every detail she would have been a robot! There is one vital feature you have overlooked: the fact that she has free will.All things are easy for God and so I would assume even creating His most perfect Instrument: Our Mother Mary was also easy. So why wouldn’t He have made all of us this perfect? Wouldn’t that have fixed much evil in the world if each person was conceived and born like Our Mother? Imagine what the world could look like if all people on Earth were conceived without sin?
Interested in any insights you may have.
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tonyrey
Guest
“grace-filled freedom” is an oxymoron. It leaves no room for the power of self-determination - without which this would not be the best possible world.
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