If it was easy for God to make Mary perfect - why not us?

[petra22]

Indeed, St. Augustine couldn’t understand

I don’t feel a particularly strong need to defend my assertion that God has not created the best possible world. I think anyone can imagine a logically possible better world. In fact, a world where just one fewer person is tormented in hell forever would be better. A world where just one fewer child starves to death would be better.

Certainly, a world full of people free from original sin and with the grace-filled freedom to avoid actual sin would be absolutely better.

And again IMHO, You are thinking like a human, which we are, so you can’t help it. But, give God credit. HIS ways are ABOVE our ways. Our job is to say in our hearts, "Lord, I don’t understand it, but I trust in you. Help me assist in the things I see and feel that are lacking. Help me trust in YOU more. Thank you for this beautiful world YOU have made from nothing. Thank you for the air we breathe and the water and the warmth of the sun and the food. And help me share what I have with the ones who don’t. Amen.

 

[petra22]

1. God did give us enough Grace to become holy. Reason I know this to be true (thanks to Matthew Kelly) is this: Can you be holy for one moment? Not a year, not a month, not a week, not a day, not an hour, not a minute, but for one moment in time? Yes. Everyone can choose to do that. Once you choose to do that once, you can choose to do it again. And then again and again and again. Next thing you know, you are living several holy moments each day which allows you to live a holy life. Matthew Kelly said, the saints didn’t live holy lives, they lived lives filled with holy moments, enough holy moments that we consider their lives to have been holy.
2. Three people were given the Grace you speak of. Adam, Eve and Mary. Only one didn’t sin. Lack of original sin didn’t prevent Adam & Eve from sinning. Finally, Mary didn’t sin because God knew that if Mary was granted the gift of the Immaculate Conception, she would choose not to sin, unlike Adam and Eve who were Immaculately created, yet still sinned.
3. Finally, original sin causes death. If we were all immaculately conceived, would we grow old and die And if 2/3s of immaculately conceived humans can sin… would we want to live in a world filled with 2/3 mortal sinners who are almost immortal?

Food for thought.

God Bless.

I just have to say WOW! Some light shined on me today!!! Thanks!

 

[oldcelt]

In other words “god” serves no useful purpose…

Nothing would be here without his creative force. That’s pretty useful to me.

 

[oldcelt]

In other words you agree with Schopenhauer that it would be better if life - including yours - had never existed on this planet…

Not at all…just that god did not create us individually and has no control over the happenings on this planet.

 

[Bran_Stark]

This problem is really the No. 1 thing that’s preventing me from becoming a Roman Catholic. In my mind, the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception takes away a lot of the glory and beauty of the Gospel message of salvation. And I’m not saying this from a crude Protestant Mary-phobic perspective. For I am perfectly willing to venerate the Blessed Virgin, to pray for her intercession, even… but I want to venerate her as a fellow member of the broken humanity Christ died for, not as some magical exception or loophole who gets her own sui generis method of salvation. When Mary sang “He hath regarded the lowliness of His handmaiden”, I think she meant it. Lowliness. But if the Immaculate Conception is true, there wasn’t much lowliness to regard. It’s "He hath regarded the special privilege that He could have given to all humanity but didn’t of His handmaiden". And I don’t like that.

 

[rinnie]

All things are easy for God and so I would assume even creating His most perfect Instrument: Our Mother Mary was also easy. So why wouldn’t He have made all of us this perfect? Wouldn’t that have fixed much evil in the world if each person was conceived and born like Our Mother? Imagine what the world could look like if all people on Earth were conceived without sin?

Interested in any insights you may have.

God did not make Mary perfect. He saved her from Original Sin. She had free will to chose to follow God and not sin, or sin and follow her own wants and needs.

You could pray for grace to do the will of God, and put the will of God only above all of your wants in this world, and imitate Mary also. Mary was a Saint. We are all called to be Saints.

It is possible or God would not call us to do so.

 

[N0X3x]

a good question.

My own speculation is that God chose to grant immaculate conception only to those he knew from eternity would not sin with it. Perhaps that means that out of all people ever born, only Mary would have chosen not to sin, even if all people were immaculately conceived. if so, all the more reason to revere her.

Or perhaps it means that there are others who walk among us who are sinless. We know that St. Paul said that “all men sin and fall short of the glory of God”, but there is at least one exception to that rule. Perhaps there are more, and God simply chose not to reveal to us that these people exist.

 

[tp3192000]

God did not make Mary perfect. He saved her from Original Sin. She had free will to chose to follow God and not sin, or sin and follow her own wants and needs.
.

I think you are right. Although Mary was full of grace and sinless, she was not perfect. She is not Divine and it is her humanity that draws us towards her to be closer to God.

 

[phil19034]

This problem is really the No. 1 thing that’s preventing me from becoming a Roman Catholic. In my mind, the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception takes away a lot of the glory and beauty of the Gospel message of salvation. And I’m not saying this from a crude Protestant Mary-phobic perspective. For I am perfectly willing to venerate the Blessed Virgin, to pray for her intercession, even… but I want to venerate her as a fellow member of the broken humanity Christ died for, not as some magical exception or loophole who gets her own sui generis method of salvation. When Mary sang “He hath regarded the lowliness of His handmaiden”, I think she meant it. Lowliness. But if the Immaculate Conception is true, there wasn’t much lowliness to regard. It’s "He hath regarded the special privilege that He could have given to all humanity but didn’t of His handmaiden". And I don’t like that.

I think you misunderstand what the Immaculate Conception did/does.

I highly recommend the following CD and Book by Dr. Deacon Mark Miravalle:
- CD = Meet Your Mother: An Introduction to Mary
and
- Book = Meet Your Mother

Plus, Dr. Scott Hahn’s book Hail Holy Queen

Also, Tim Staples’ new book Behold Your Mother - A Biblical and Historical Defense of the Marian Doctrines

Finally, Dr. Edward Sri’s Queen Mother: A Biblical Theology of Mary’s Queenship

While I recommend all 5, if you don’t buy them all at once, then I suggest buying the CD first, and then the Dr. Sri’s last.

May The Lord grant us wisdom and understanding. Amen.

 

[Bran_Stark]

I think you misunderstand what the Immaculate Conception did/does.

I highly recommend the following CD and Book by Dr. Deacon Mark Miravalle:
- CD = Meet Your Mother: An Introduction to Mary
and
- Book = Meet Your Mother

Plus, Dr. Scott Hahn’s book Hail Holy Queen

Also, Tim Staples’ new book Behold Your Mother - A Biblical and Historical Defense of the Marian Doctrines

Finally, Dr. Edward Sri’s Queen Mother: A Biblical Theology of Mary’s Queenship

While I recommend all 5, if you don’t buy them all at once, then I suggest buying the CD first, and then the Dr. Sri’s last.

May The Lord grant us wisdom and understanding. Amen.

I’m sure those are interesting books, but if you think I’ve misunderstood some aspect of the doctrine, I would hope you could give some indication about what you think I’ve misunderstood, instead of just sending me off to make a purchase.

 

[Memaw]

a good question.

My own speculation is that God chose to grant immaculate conception only to those he knew from eternity would not sin with it. Perhaps that means that out of all people ever born, only Mary would have chosen not to sin, even if all people were immaculately conceived. if so, all the more reason to revere her.

Or perhaps it means that there are others who walk among us who are sinless. We know that St. Paul said that “all men sin and fall short of the glory of God”, but there is at least one exception to that rule. Perhaps there are more, and God simply chose not to reveal to us that these people exist.

Adam and Eve were created immaculate, (without original sin) and also with a free will and they chose to sin. Their choice had consequences for the whole human race. Mary was conceived without original sin, (Immaculate) and also with a free will and she chose to obey God and look at the consequences of her decision, She brought us our Savior. God Bless, Memaw

 

[phil19034]

I’m sure those are interesting books, but if you think I’ve misunderstood some aspect of the doctrine, I would hope you could give some indication about what you think I’ve misunderstood, instead of just sending me off to make a purchase.

Sorry. I had written a response but deleted it because I didn’t like how I wrote it. I was going to include it with those links. I guess I was hoping someone could explain it better than me


So let me take a shot…

God created Adam, Eve and Mary all in Immaculate fashion. However Adam and Eve sinned. So the Immaculate Conception doesn’t free her from being able to sin. The lack of Original sin didn’t really make Mary more holy than other Human beings. Mary did that on her own by choosing to accept God.

So why did God make Mary Immaculate? Why was the gift important?

Because of Christ.

Jesus is fully human and fully God. And Jesus received his human nature from His mother. If Mary was born with Original Sin, then God would have had to create a different way to prevent Jesus from being born with the Stain of Original Sin. God is sinless. The Father and Son are one. So it makes sense that if Christ’s divine nature is sinless, His Human nature should be sinless too. So to insure He was born without original sin, God chose this method.

Additionally, by carrying the Incarnate Word of God in her womb, Mary is the New Ark of the Covenant. For Jews to simply carry and look inside the Ark, they had to be sinless, otherwise they would die. To simply carry the box which contained the Written Word of God required a ton of Grace. But imagine if they had to carry it around without a box and care for it at all times because it wasn’t locked up in a box. Jesus is the Word of God Incarnate, so this is exactly what Mary had to do. If one required extra Graces to simply carry the box containing the Written Word of God, one can argue that you would need a supernatural amount of Grace to physically hold God in your womb and to keep Him safe.

So the Immaculate Conception was really to allow God a pure vessel to be born into this world, and less about being a gift for Mary, but being a gift for humanity.

I hope this helps, but please order the resources, or at least start with the CD (or MP3) it goes fast and you will want to listen to it again and again.

May The Lord grant us wisdom and understanding. Amen.

 

[Bran_Stark]

Jesus is fully human and fully God. And Jesus received his human nature from His mother. If Mary was born with Original Sin, then God would have had to create a different way to prevent Jesus from being born with the Stain of Original Sin. God is sinless. The Father and Son are one. So it makes sense that if Christ’s divine nature is sinless, His Human nature should be sinless too. So to insure He was born without original sin, God chose this method.

If sinlessness is a necessary prerequisite for giving birth to a sinless child, then Mary’s parents would have to be sinless, and their parents, and their parents… all the way back to Adam and Eve. The Fall, however, happened. So I think it’s a very weak argument to say that Mary HAD TO be sinless.

It’s absolutely true that, as you said, “If Mary was born with Original Sin, then God would have had to create a different way to prevent Jesus from being born with the Stain of Original Sin.” And I think He did just that. He went ahead and used that “different way”.

Additionally, by carrying the Incarnate Word of God in her womb, Mary is the New Ark of the Covenant. For Jews to simply carry and look inside the Ark, they had to be sinless, otherwise they would die. To simply carry the box which contained the Written Word of God required a ton of Grace. But imagine if they had to carry it around without a box and care for it at all times because it wasn’t locked up in a box. Jesus is the Word of God Incarnate, so this is exactly what Mary had to do. If one required extra Graces to simply carry the box containing the Written Word of God, one can argue that you would need a supernatural amount of Grace to physically hold God in your womb and to keep Him safe.

I do not dispute that Mary was given a “supernatural amount of grace”. But neither do I see any reason why this supernatural amount of grace has to imply the absence of original sin at her conception. And I wouldn’t want to focus too closely on Mary’s physical contact with Christ in the womb as a reason for her status, because then one might argue that everyone else who ever touched His body would have to be immaculate also. It’s true, of course, that having Christ inside your body is a rather more intimate connection than merely touching him, but do not you Catholics claim to have Christ inside your body too, when you consume the Eucharist?

So the Immaculate Conception was really to allow God a pure vessel to be born into this world, and less about being a gift for Mary, but being a gift for humanity.

While we disagree about the “immaculate” part, I hope we can agree that the Conception of the Blessed Virgin is indeed a great gift for humanity, a gift that both sides of the Tiber should honour.

 

[tonyrey]

Nothing would be here without his creative force. That’s pretty useful to me.

Well said! His creative force must have a purpose…

 

[phil19034]

If sinlessness is a necessary prerequisite for giving birth to a sinless child, then Mary’s parents would have to be sinless, and their parents, and their parents… all the way back to Adam and Eve. The Fall, however, happened. So I think it’s a very weak argument to say that Mary HAD TO be sinless.

It’s absolutely true that, as you said, “If Mary was born with Original Sin, then God would have had to create a different way to prevent Jesus from being born with the Stain of Original Sin.” And I think He did just that. He went ahead and used that “different way”.

I do not dispute that Mary was given a “supernatural amount of grace”. But neither do I see any reason why this supernatural amount of grace has to imply the absence of original sin at her conception. And I wouldn’t want to focus too closely on Mary’s physical contact with Christ in the womb as a reason for her status, because then one might argue that everyone else who ever touched His body would have to be immaculate also. It’s true, of course, that having Christ inside your body is a rather more intimate connection than merely touching him, but do not you Catholics claim to have Christ inside your body too, when you consume the Eucharist?

While we disagree about the “immaculate” part, I hope we can agree that the Conception of the Blessed Virgin is indeed a great gift for humanity, a gift that both sides of the Tiber should honour.

Thanks for your reply. I still highly recommend the books and CD. They do a FAR better job at explaining it than I ever could, especially online.

God Bless

 

[StrawberryJam]

All things are easy for God and so I would assume even creating His most perfect Instrument: Our Mother Mary was also easy. So why wouldn’t He have made all of us this perfect? Wouldn’t that have fixed much evil in the world if each person was conceived and born like Our Mother? Imagine what the world could look like if all people on Earth were conceived without sin?

Interested in any insights you may have.

I am reporting your post.
This is why:
Our Mother Mary was also easy

You need to think about the words you use before hitting submit. You had a lot of time to think and reply to posts and not correct this glaring error.

You need to apologize to the forum for making such a bold statement.
The reason I take you to task, is your very last question.
your words:
Imagine what the world could look like if all people on Earth were conceived without sin?

My response to your very strange post as a self proclaimed Christian is:
Let us imagine it them.
What need would there be for your Jesus then?
You seem to be advocating a world without Jesus. As a self proclaimed Christian, this must be a problem.

 

[Neoplatonist]

I am reporting your post.
This is why:
Our Mother Mary was also easy

You need to think about the words you use before hitting submit. You had a lot of time to think and reply to posts and not correct this glaring error.

You need to apologize to the forum for making such a bold statement.
The reason I take you to task, is your very last question.
your words:
Imagine what the world could look like if all people on Earth were conceived without sin?

My response to your very strange post as a self proclaimed Christian is:
Let us imagine it them.
What need would there be for your Jesus then?
You seem to be advocating a world without Jesus. As a self proclaimed Christian, this must be a problem.

Why your strange conclusion that being born without the stain of original sin would mean we would manage to make it through our lives without falling into sin and therefore needing the saving grace of Jesus’ life and sacrifice?

Does Mary deserve no credit or merit for going on to live a sinless life?

Did Adam and Eve do so well just because they were born without the stain of original sin?

If it upsets you for people to make bold statements and struggle with questions, can you help me see how reporting them fits with the goal here of helping people understand?

 

[StrawberryJam]

Why your strange conclusion that being born without the stain of original sin would mean we would manage to make it through our lives without falling into sin and therefore needing the saving grace of Jesus’ life and sacrifice?

Does Mary deserve no credit or merit for going on to live a sinless life?

Did Adam and Eve do so well just because they were born without the stain of original sin?

If it upsets you for people to make bold statements and struggle with questions, can you help me see how reporting them fits with the goal here of helping people understand?

I am sorry that you don’t understand what I said.

 

[Neoplatonist]

I am sorry that you don’t understand what I said.

Would Jesus’ life and sacrifice teach us and open a path for our redemption if we were born without the mark of original sin, but then fell into sin nonetheless?