If it was found to be true that we have had past lives, would this affect the Catholic Faith?

[FrDavid96]

Yes, in the context of Christian teaching it is unacceptable and impossible. But out side that belief system it is not. We have a very linear understanding of history (beginnig -middle - end). The east is my cyclical, evolution is a spiral upward.

Christianity IS an Eastern religion, after all.

 

[openmind77]

openmind77:

I realize belief in reincarnation is incompatible with Christianity. But I just wondered how fundamental this belief in ‘one life’ is. When we first found out that the earth revolves around the Sun, the church accepted it after some struggle. Prior to that the belief that the earth revolves around the Sun was incompatible with Christianity.

I assume the belief in only ‘one life’ is more fundamental than that?

And maybe someday we will discover that the moon stays in one place while the sun and the earth revolve around it? Won’t we be surprised?

That is not a reasonable or logical position to take on anything. That kind of reasoning doesn’t rise to the level of a response.

The answer to your question is this: yes, the belief in one life is absolutely fundamental to Christianity.

I don’t like using the word “fundamental” because that word has been taken over by some false Christian beliefs (fundamentalists) so I need to say that I mean that word in its authentic sense. It is “foundational” it is a basic belief upon which all else rests, etc.

Yes, ‘foundational’ does sound better in today’s world. I meant, is the belief in ‘only one life’ part of the creed or something like that? Did Jesus explicitly say something about it? If neither, why should this be so ‘foundational’? I am afraid, if reincarnation is someday, somehow found to be true, it will indeed break the Church apart.

 

[Joe_5859]

If neither, why should this be so ‘foundational’?

It’s foundational because it speaks to who we are as human beings. We are body-soul unions. We are not “ghosts in machines” as the popular sentiment goes. Our bodies aren’t just interchangeable vessels for our souls. They are who we are.

You cannot add reincarnation into Christianity without undercutting the teaching on who we are as human persons.

It also speaks to the nature of salvation and judgment. We are judged at death, not recycled into another body to be given another chance.

So, no, we don’t see in the Creed an explicit rejection of reincarnation. But the idea of reincarnation is not compatible with the truths of the faith.

 

[Shakuhachi]

I think you know what I mean.

Christianity has become quite European, occidental to religions of China and India and Japan, where reincarnation is more accepted.

 

[Mintaka]

St. Irenaeus of Lyons writes about the fundamental conflicts of reincarnation with Christianity and with logic, in Against Heresies (Book II, Chapters 33: Against the Transmigration of Souls; and 34: Souls… Are Immortal).

Obviously he was writing against Pythagorean Greek and Gnostic ideas of reincarnation, rather than Hindu ones. (Although he would have heard of Hindu ideas; the Roman world traded with India, and it was an exotic place that Romans associated with wisdom and magic.)

There wasn’t much that Irenaeus would have been obliged to say against Stoic and Neo-Platonic ideas of reincarnation. They just believed in continual creation and destruction cycles where the universe was destroyed and then came back, during which all living beings also kept being destroyed and coming back, in exactly the same forms, living the same lives, and making exactly the same decisions. (A few Stoics opined that Bob in Universe One and Bob in Universe Two were not actually the same person, but they would necessarily look and act exactly the same, would have the same name, and would have identically appearing relatives, wife, farm, kids, etc.) Obviously Christianity taught one universe with a beginning and an end, so this “Grand Cycle” stuff couldn’t happen.

St. Patrick also got involved in teaching against reincarnation. We don’t know much about it, but we do know reincarnation and transmigration of souls was part of druidic teaching; several classical Roman writers agree on this. There’s stuff included in the St. Patrick materials that talks about how the pagan Irish believed that the souls of young children became butterflies. (Pretty typical Indo-European idea, and also found in some Greek mythology that associated the psyche with butterfies.) This still lives on in some Irish folklore associating white butterflies with recently dead babies traveling to Heaven, which is why you never mess with white butterflies.

So no, there’s nothing intrinsically “non-European” about reincarnation. It’s just not real, that’s all.

 

[FrDavid96]

Yes, ‘foundational’ does sound better in today’s world. I meant, is the belief in ‘only one life’ part of the creed or something like that? Did Jesus explicitly say something about it? If neither, why should this be so ‘foundational’? I am afraid, if reincarnation is someday, somehow found to be true, it will indeed break the Church apart.

There is no way that reincarnation could someday be “found to be true.” It is not true. Therefore, it cannot be found to be true.

I am not going to try to provide some kind of list of proofs that reincarnation is incompatible with Christianity. It is so obvious that it does not merit proving.

Nevertheless, I’ll say it anyway. Yes, it’s in the creeds. When we say “I believe in the Resurrection from the dead” we say that we cannot believe in reincarnation.

Although never explicitly mentioned, it absolutely clear the reincarnation is incompatible with the teachings of Christ. The parable of Lazarus and Dives is one example.

I’m not going to waste time by listing all the different ways that reincarnation is incompatible with Christianity. That would literally be a waste of my time.

 

[Kei]

China is well on its way to become the most Christian country in the world in the near future (by pure numbers).

Reincarnation is more accepted in Asia as that fits their metaphysical beliefs. These would change once they become Christian to Christian metaphysical beliefs. It can be extremely counter cultural at some places though.

 

[Shakuhachi]

Exactly, different metaphysical beliefs make it a possibility for them. If those change, then no longer possible. Thank you.

 

[Shakuhachi]

Shakuhachi:

And that is one of the things I struggle with as a Catholic. The Church makes ‘teaching’ out of things which it really has no knowledge. No one knows what happens after death.

Wrong on both points.

Yes, we do know the truth of what is defined as dogma and doctrine.

Yes, we do know that there will be a final Resurrection and we will all receive our original bodies back again.

We do not know. We believe. They are articles of Faith.

I think somewhere you also said in regard to Church teaching that “It is not true because we believe; we believe because it is true.” You don’t think we approach any issue with a bias for the teaching?

 

[mkoopman]

Pure numbers on the enigma machine? I’d bet it will.
Your koan on rebirth and assumption is lamentably unknown to my philosophies. Please enlighten us.

 

[Arkansan]

As badly as you may wish it to represent a proper radical humanism or enlightenment unfolding of grander knowledge it originates in fat old white supremacist garbage.
Sorry to disappoint you and don’t get too hung up on it.

If you’re preparing a Sokal experiment, you may want to dial it down a little. This is too over the top.

 

[Kei]

Scholastic type philosophy can be unknown to certain parts of the world.

To some, God would transcend their normal ways of thinking as opposed to creating us in a way to at least understand somewhat.

 

[mkoopman]

Did you know of the germ warfare experiments in the U.S.? I would assume you are a denier? So many good citizens would have to take it on the chin that public apologies for having been in the Klan made by many senior Senate and Congress critters was surely more than what was required. After all the intent was to further the national interest.
Who is left to be affected by the truth? Perhaps a further stain would be splashed upon Margaret Sanger and other pioneers in feeding the starving Armenians. It was all in the You Tube video that started the whole fuss, anyway.