If it wasn't for the Jews

[mariafidelis]

Just wondering if it wasn’t for the Jews being God’s chosen people and them going astray… Would us non Jews (Gentiles) have no hope for salvation? Before Jesus came did every non-Jew go to hell?
I thought back then you didn’t really convert you were just born a Jew or not. Are these the people that Jesus preached to after he died on the Cross?

Just wondering…

 

[Ignatius]

Just wondering if it wasn’t for the Jews being God’s chosen people and them going astray… Would us non Jews (Gentiles) have no hope for salvation?

That’s correct. Jesus said it as clearly as can be, Our Lord said “Salvation is from the Jews.”

 

[followingtheway]

Before Jesus came did every non-Jew go to hell?

Not the Hell of the damned :dts: The Jews before Christ went to Abraham’s Bosom a.k.a. Limbo of the Fathers (which is a different place from Purgatory just to let you know ).

According to the “Apostle’s Creed”, Jesus descended into “Hell” or “the dead” but this wasn’t the Hell of the damned, it was Limbo/Abraham’s Bosom. This was where all good people went before Jesus died. And in between Jesus’ death and Resurrection, He went down into “Sheol” (place of the dead) and brought all the souls to Heaven. This supported by the Bible (Acts 2:22-32; Romans 10:7; Ephesians 4:7-10, 1 Peter 3:18-20, and 1 Peter 4:6.)

Oh and by the way there is another place that was “Limbo” for unbaptized infants, but that was the one dropped by the Church.

 

[wiggbuggie]

would God then choose another group of people to reveal himself to them if it wasnt for the Jews? The hebrews or Jews during the patriachs were probably the smallest and insignificant group of people in the ancient world. The fact that God chose them and made a great nation like Isreal is amazing to the power and glory of God.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Just wondering if it wasn’t for the Jews being God’s chosen people and them going astray… Would us non Jews (Gentiles) have no hope for salvation?

If they would have not gone astray, there would have been less heart-ache in Salvation History (Rom 11:11-12; 30-32). Salvation would have come by another means that the murder of Jesus: the full national acceptance of Him as Messiah!

Before Jesus came did every non-Jew go to hell?

No. See: Jonah.

I thought back then you didn’t really convert you were just born a Jew or not.

True.

Are these the people that Jesus preached to after he died on the Cross?

Who?

 

[Gsmullennix]

It is more than inaccurate to say back then or now that someone is born a Jew. One might be born to Jewish parents but only through the practice of the religion is one a Jew. If a child is born to a Catholic parent, is the child a Catholic? As with Judaism, a period of study takes place, a confirmation ceremony is conducted and the child is granted his religion. Afterwards, he maintains that by practice, by being an observant Catholic or Jew. Why else do you suppose there is a first communion ceremony? All religions have rites of initiation to grant membership to the faithful.

 

[Crumpy]

There were converts to Judaism in Biblical times. Ruth comes to mind.

 

[TimothyH]

Salvation is from the Jews but Adam and Eve were the first to go astray. As the first parents of all men, God gave everyone hope of salvation when he said to the serpent…

I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel." (Genesis 3:15)

and again when he spoke Eve’s son Cain…

So the LORD said to Cain: “Why are you so resentful and crestfallen? If you do well, you can hold up your head; but if not, sin is a demon lurking at the door: his urge is toward you, yet you can be his master.” (Genesis 4:6-7)

Salvation was going to happen with or without the Jews. Noah found favor with God and God made his first covenant with Noah. God called Abraham out of of Ur and made his second covenant with Abraham. All this happend prior to the birth of “Gods chosen Son” Israel, through Joseph and his twelve sons.

Moses didn’t want to cooperate and argued with God about being God’s chosen instrument for releasing Israel from captivity. The Israelites worshipped false Gods and demanded a human king even while God was their king who lived in their midst. David murdered and committed adultery, Solomon fell to the vices of “Females and finances.” Jeroboam abandoned temple worship and set up golden calves at Bethel and Dan, and 99% of the people didn’t even return to the land God had given them after the Babylonian exile.

Salvation is from the Jews but it is also in spite of the Jews. And we are little different.

-Tim-

 

[The_Old_Medic]

Never, ever forget that Jesus WAS a Jew, an observant Jew.

 

[Gsmullennix]

That I suppose is what is meant by “observant”. Jesus was clearly on the outside of the observant majority of Jews in Israel. While there isn’t any factual evidence of what was said or one, there was something unsettling about claims of being the Messiah r God or Son of God. Or, perhaps the attack on the temple and its functioning which he didn’t like.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Just wondering if it wasn’t for the Jews being God’s chosen people and them going astray… Would us non Jews (Gentiles) have no hope for salvation? Before Jesus came did every non-Jew go to hell?
I thought back then you didn’t really convert you were just born a Jew or not. Are these the people that Jesus preached to after he died on the Cross?

Just wondering…

Are you worried about the salvation of the many many people that lived long before the Jews? I’m confused about the direction of your concern.

 

[Crumpy]

Just wondering if it wasn’t for the Jews being God’s chosen people and them going astray… Would us non Jews (Gentiles) have no hope for salvation? Before Jesus came did every non-Jew go to hell?
I thought back then you didn’t really convert you were just born a Jew or not. Are these the people that Jesus preached to after he died on the Cross?

Just wondering…

There’s a lot of complexity in your question, and it’s a good question.

Yeah. If God had decided to choose the Jews as his chosen people, couldn’t he have done a better job with them, to start off with? And, when Jesus the Messiah comes along, couldn’t he have just converted them instead of leaving most of them in the dust?

Sheesh. If God treats his FRIENDS this way…imagine how he will treat his enemies.

You read the OT, and the Jews “don’t get it.” You read the gospel of Mark and even Jesus apostles “don’t get it.”

You’re right. I don’t like to think about this aspect of the Bible. Maybe the good thing is that God will treat us compassionately, even if we “don’t really get it.”

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Did non-Jews go to Hell prior to the coming of Jesus Christ??

If they DID, the Jews never said they did.
The Jewish people never, ever, believed in an eternal conscious punishment
in Hellfire.
In the Old Testament, God never threatened sinners with eternal Hellfire, only with death.
He never threatened Cain or Saul or anyone else with Hellfire.
Moses never threatened the wicked with an eternity in Hellfire, nor did the prophets.
And nobody ever threatened the non-Jews that they were on their way to Hellfire.
To this day, Jews do not believe that you have to be a Jew to get to heaven.

 

[Gsmullennix]

So, what was the source for all I was taught about sin and hell, Satan and exorcism? What was the purpose of Jesus’ baptism when ours today talks about washing away sins and getting rid of the devil so in case we die at birth or shortly thereafter, we are not condemned to purgatory? Thanks for your response.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

The Old Testament never denied the existence of Satan.
And sin is an ever-present reality throughout the Old Testament.
Hell or no Hell, Jesus would still be needed as the atonement for our Sins.

Jesus’s own baptism was NOT a sacramental baptism to wash away sin!!
Jesus had no sin to wash away.
I have never been clear as to why Jesus needed to be baptized anyway.
He said it was “to fulfill all righteousness,” but that doesn’t really clear things up.

 

[Gsmullennix]

well, the old testament Satan was a subordinate to God whose job it was to be a tester and did that on Gods behalf. Job was Satan’s target to test after getting permission from God and after a severe test, God said Job was indeed loyal…and Satan asked for another chance to prove to God that Job wasn’t the person God had been led to believe. So, the test became extremely severe with the loss of all Job had. He was still loyal and so God pulled Satan off the task and rewarded Job with twice what he had possessed. I presume Job was ok with this but I suppose he missed his family.

I don’t think the punitive Satan, acting on his own and with a determination to destroy God was present in the old testament. I got this more recently from Pagel’s book, The Origen of Satan. Always interested in another viewpoint.

I’ve not understood the baptism except perhaps as a story to support baptism versus circumcision. There was a sect who took the baptism as the adoption of Jesus by God given the voice which said, Behold, the Son of God. But they petered out over time.

I think that the historical model is very hard to put together with the bible we have today. And really, who knows? The question is one of belief isn’t it?

 

[meltzerboy]

well, the old testament Satan was a subordinate to God whose job it was to be a tester and did that on Gods behalf. Job was Satan’s target to test after getting permission from God and after a severe test, God said Job was indeed loyal…and Satan asked for another chance to prove to God that Job wasn’t the person God had been led to believe. So, the test became extremely severe with the loss of all Job had. He was still loyal and so God pulled Satan off the task and rewarded Job with twice what he had possessed. I presume Job was ok with this but I suppose he missed his family.

I don’t think the punitive Satan, acting on his own and with a determination to destroy God was present in the old testament. I got this more recently from Pagel’s book, The Origen of Satan. Always interested in another viewpoint.

I’ve not understood the baptism except perhaps as a story to support baptism versus circumcision. There was a sect who took the baptism as the adoption of Jesus by God given the voice which said, Behold, the Son of God. But they petered out over time.

I think that the historical model is very hard to put together with the bible we have today. And really, who knows? The question is one of belief isn’t it?

You’re right about the Jewish conception of Satan. He is not regarded as a fallen angel but rather an angel in the service of G-d, and who is responsible (among other things) for doing the “dirty work” of testing people’s free will by means of clever deception. How that view of Satan changed to the Christian notion of the fallen Lucifer who is the opposing evil force of the universe embattled with the benevolent power of G-d for eternity, I don’t know.

 

[meltzerboy]

Did non-Jews go to Hell prior to the coming of Jesus Christ??

If they DID, the Jews never said they did.
The Jewish people never, ever, believed in an eternal conscious punishment
in Hellfire.
In the Old Testament, God never threatened sinners with eternal Hellfire, only with death.
He never threatened Cain or Saul or anyone else with Hellfire.
Moses never threatened the wicked with an eternity in Hellfire, nor did the prophets.
And nobody ever threatened the non-Jews that they were on their way to Hellfire.
To this day, Jews do not believe that you have to be a Jew to get to heaven.

This is basically correct. For most Jews who believe in heaven and hell, hell is not viewed as conscious torture but rather as a separation from G-d. And one does not have to be Jewish to go to heaven; all that is necessary for non-Jews is to lead a moral life according to the Law of Noah. For Jews, more is demanded with regard to the several hundred commandments (about 300 which can be fulfilled today out of the original 613), but even here no one can say for sure how many must be obeyed since G-d’s mercy and love pays attention to one’s intentions and improvement as well as one’s accomplishment.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

**You’re right about the Jewish conception of Satan. He is not regarded as a fallen angel but rather an angel in the service of G-d, and who is responsible (among other things) for doing the “dirty work” of testing people’s free will by means of clever deception. **

I have to say I have a *** real *** problem with this.
This makes God a deliberate co-operator in using something wicked
like deception to lead people into the crime of Sin. And it makes
God out to be in league with the Satan. Uh-uh.

 

[meltzerboy]

**You’re right about the Jewish conception of Satan. He is not regarded as a fallen angel but rather an angel in the service of G-d, and who is responsible (among other things) for doing the “dirty work” of testing people’s free will by means of clever deception. **

I have to say I have a *** real *** problem with this.
This makes God a deliberate co-operator in using something wicked
like deception to lead people into the crime of Sin. And it makes
God out to be in league with the Satan. Uh-uh.

Didn’t G-d Himself test Abraham when He told him to kill his son, Isaac? And what about Job? Perhaps deception is the wrong word since it implies lying: temptation is probably better. Satan is the tempter and the accuser of Man according to Judaism, hoping that Man will choose to do good rather than evil, just as G-d does. But it is ultimately Man’s choice, not Satan’s or G-d’s. By giving Man free will to begin with, G-d is enabling Man to give in to his “evil inclination” rather than his “good inclination,” if he so chooses. The test itself, however, seems necessary so that Man can learn to choose good over evil by controlling his instincts. Thus Man can become closer to God as he learns to merge his will with that of the Creator.