If it wasn't for the Jews

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=mariafidelis;8116411]Just wondering if it wasn’t for the Jews being God’s chosen people and them going astray… Would us non Jews (Gentiles) have no hope for salvation? Before Jesus came did every non-Jew go to hell?
I thought back then you didn’t really convert you were just born a Jew or not. Are these the people that Jesus preached to after he died on the Cross?
Just wondering…
I don’t usually participate in “make believe-what if” questions, but this is intringing to me.

Your undestanding seems to have a few missing key points. It was NOT Judism that cased one’s salvation; rather it was JUDISM + Obeying faithfully the Covenant and the laws as God demanded.

From a common perspective being born into Jewism is not signifinately different than being born into Catholism [Baptism included].

I do not beleive God EVER intended “all” others to “go-to-hell.”

Using this brief description of God as being accurate:** “GOD is every good thing Perfected”, ** One can and ought to conclude that God can Cause ONLY Good things.[Permitting evil is a sepertate discussion].

The problem with the “All others going to” theory is that it means in an absolute sense that God DOES predestine souls to eternal damnation. THIS OF COURSE IS AN ACTUAL IMPOSSIBILITY IF GOD IS ONLY “GOOD.”

It is IMPOSSIBE for TWO VALID Reassons: 1. It denies Gpd’s Goodness and 2. It denies humanities mind, intelect and freewill wich are a permnant part of our “person.” God simply cannot on one hand give one the attributes to freely chooce good or evil; and then NOT permit souls to uses these gifts. [NOT A GOOD.]

So the question now becomes: How then MIGHT these other souls be saved?

I SUSPECT
the answer is very similar to souls today who have no REAL opportunity to know God.

So what are your thoughts?

God Bless,
Pat
 
I always saw Isaac’s akeda
as a test of Abraham’s faith and trust in , and obedience to, God.
And for that Abraham’s willingness to carry out God’s request,
painful to him though it had to be,
showed that he was absolutely committed 100% to God.
God saw that, and stopped the actual killing of Isaac,
accepting both Abraham’s obedience, and Isaac’s submission,
as righteousness…
 
=Gsmullennix;8163434]well, the old testament Satan was a subordinate to God whose job it was to be a tester and did that on Gods behalf. Job was Satan’s target to test after getting permission from God and after a severe test, God said Job was indeed loyal…and Satan asked for another chance to prove to God that Job wasn’t the person God had been led to believe. So, the test became extremely severe with the loss of all Job had. He was still loyal and so God pulled Satan off the task and rewarded Job with twice what he had possessed. I presume Job was ok with this but I suppose he missed his family.
I don’t think the punitive Satan, acting on his own and with a determination to destroy God was present in the old testament. I got this more recently from Pagel’s book, The Origen of Satan. Always interested in another viewpoint.
I’ve not understood the baptism except perhaps as a story to support baptism versus circumcision. There was a sect who took the baptism as the adoption of Jesus by God given the voice which said, Behold, the Son of God. But they petered out over time.
I think that the historical model is very hard to put together with the bible we have today. And really, who knows? The question is one of belief isn’t it?
***No, no, my friend;

Satan has been in existence as long as Angels have. Having come from and FALLEN from their ranks.

Actually Satan had [if one can conceive of such a thing] GREATER Power before Christ, simply because Grace[most especially Sacramnrtal Grace and and scramentas were yet to come.]

It IS because of the Pasacal Mystery that Christ defeated Satan for humanities sake. God through Michael the ArchAngel defeated Satan on behalf of God.

Santans early presence is evident by Gods decision to destroy the Earth with the GREAT Flood, having found ONLY Noah and his small family worthy of salvation. And what about Sodom and Gomorrah? And the ONLY tribesfrom Abraham ,all the way up the Incarnation that Knew Yahweh as there God, were the Twelve Tribes of Israel [most of the time and at times even they failed God.] ALL the others had multiple gods.

Satans power is next to God [but inferior to it], and now that God has set a “time limit” on Satans power, he is more angry, more fustrated, never satisfied with even all of the evidenct success he has claimed. All the LOST souls he has “won.” Look at Abortion and same sex unions for example and consider how many souls are lost because of just these two catagories of sin.

For those who may not know how Satan works; he gains access through ones emotions and appetittes. BUT HE CANNOT OVERCOME ONES “FREEWI” so sin is ALWAYS ones own personal choice.:eek:

God Bless,
Pat ***
 
What I never understood, and still don’t, is this: Jesus said He had come only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel (He said this to His Jewish followers). Judaism has always taught that the Torah (Law) is for Jews only, since they are the people God made His Covenant with.

Jesus was to come to die to fulfill that Torah (Law), but if the Torah was only for Jews, wouldn’t that mean fulfillment (salvation) is too?

In other words, how could Jesus die for the sins of people who were never under the Law to start with?
 
What I never understood, and still don’t, is this: Jesus said He had come only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel (He said this to His Jewish followers). Judaism has always taught that the Torah (Law) is for Jews only, since they are the people God made His Covenant with.

Jesus was to come to die to fulfill that Torah (Law), but if the Torah was only for Jews, wouldn’t that mean fulfillment (salvation) is too?

In other words, how could Jesus die for the sins of people who were never under the Law to start with?
As we discussed before, the primary question from the Jewish perspective is really, how could Jesus’ death vicariously atone for the sins of the Jews since Torah does not speak of vicarious atonement? (Even the Tzadik’s atonement does not result in death, and it only accompanies the individual’s atonement). Your own question is interesting, and I would venture that since non-Jews must abide by the seven laws of Noah–which are the essence of the moral portion of the Torah (“all the rest is commentary,” and such) since the other laws mainly involve rituals and purification–the Gentiles are also, in this sense, included in Torah Law.
 
As we discussed before, the primary question from the Jewish perspective is really, how could Jesus’ death vicariously atone for the sins of the Jews since Torah does not speak of vicarious atonement? (Even the Tzadik’s atonement does not result in death, and it only accompanies the individual’s atonement). Your own question is interesting, I would venture that since non-Jews must abide by the seven laws of Noah–which are the essence of the moral portion of the Torah (“all the rest is commentary,” and such) since the other laws mainly involve rituals and purification–the Gentiles are also, in this sense, included in Torah Law.
The part I bolded (above) is what my husband said to me too. But when St Paul speaks of “the Law” in the New Testament, it seems he is speaking of the Written Torah (Genesis through Deuteronomy), not the 7 laws of Noah. Though I could be wrong, since Acts 15 does seem to discuss a rudimentary form of the Noahide laws.
 
=Zhenia;8177089]What I never understood, and still don’t, is this: Jesus said He had come only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel (He said this to His Jewish followers). Judaism has always taught that the Torah (Law) is for Jews only, since they are the people God made His Covenant with.
Jesus was to come to die to fulfill that Torah (Law), but if the Torah was only for Jews, wouldn’t that mean fulfillment (salvation) is too?
In other words, how could Jesus die for the sins of people who were never under the Law to start with?
Its a 'Was" and “Is” situation.

Matt.10: [5] These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans,

Acts.13: [46] And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. [47] For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, `I have set you to be a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth.’” [48] And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed

Rom.3: [29] Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also

Heb. 8: 6 “But as it is, Christ * has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second.

Rom. 7: 6 “But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.”

Heb. 8: 13 “ In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.”

LUKE 2: [30] for mine eyes have seen thy salvation [31] which thou hast prepared in the presence of all peoples, [32] a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and for glory to thy people Israel."


Acts.9: [15] But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;

Acts.28: [28] Let it be known to you then that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen."

Acts.11: [1] Now the apostles and the brethren who were in Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. [18] When they heard this they were silenced. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance unto life.”

***Notice in Luke two above. This is part of the Birth of Christ account.***Lk. 19 41-44 And when he [Jesus] drew near and saw the city [Jerusalem] he wept over it, saying, "Would that even today you knew the things that make for peace! But now they are hid from your eyes. For the days shall come upon you, when your enemies will cast up a bank about you and surround you, and hem you in on every side, and dash you to the ground, you and your children within you, and they will not leave one stone upon another in you; because you did not know the time of your visitation."

Because the Jewish nation denied that Christ was the long awaited Messiah, Christ made a “New Covenant in My Blood” that REQUIRED BELIEF of Jesus as God; as Mesiah REGARDLESS of Race or nationality.

MARK 14: 22-24

And whilst they were eating, Jesus took bread; and blessing, broke, and gave to them, and said: Take ye. This is my body. And having taken the chalice, giving thanks, he gave it to them. And they all drank of it. And he said to them: This is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many.

Jewish Pride, Sins caused their denail and therefore necessiated a NEW Covenant and a NEW “Chosen people.” Based on Beleif, not nationality.

Matt.28: 18 to 20

" And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

God Bless you,
Pat
 
Just wondering if it wasn’t for the Jews being God’s chosen people and them going astray… Would us non Jews (Gentiles) have no hope for salvation? Before Jesus came did every non-Jew go to hell?
I thought back then you didn’t really convert you were just born a Jew or not. Are these the people that Jesus preached to after he died on the Cross?

Just wondering…
God’s purpose has always been to save ALL Israel.The scripture says clearly:

Did they (Jews) stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. Romans 11:11
 
God’s purpose has always been to save ALL Israel.The scripture says clearly:

Did they (Jews) stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. Romans 11:11
Ah, but St Paul also says, “Not all ARE Israel who are OF Israel”. He also says, "For he is not a Jew, who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh.

But he is a Jew which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God". (Romans 2)

A really good book to read on the subject of the conversion of the Jewish nation is “The Kingship of Christ and the Conversion of the Jewish Nation” by Rev Fr Denis Fahey, C.S.Sp., available from The Christian Book Club of America, PO Box 900566, Palmdale, CA 93590-0566 omnicbc.com

(Imprimi Potest: O. O’Carroll, C.S.Sp., Nihil Obstat: Jacobus Browne, Imprimatur: JACOBUS, Episcopus Fernensis, 1953)
 
=trdchubi;8186016]God’s purpose has always been to save ALL Israel.The scripture says clearly:
Did they (Jews) stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. Romans 11:11
Like ALL SHOULD,

I LOVE MY JEWISH BRETHEREN. WAS NOT JESUS A “JEW?” AND THE APOSTLES?

Further they are no more [and no less] responsible for Christ Passion and death than me and you:o

God Bless you,
Pat
 
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