If it wasn't true

  • Thread starter Thread starter Namesake
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
What if … “Those matters pertaining to Mary - as taught by the Church - suddenly were determined not to be [by the Church]” Would that change how a Christian believes in Jesus?

One would have to say “Yes” … after all who is Jesus?

No one comes to a faith in Jesus outside the Church … even if you loosely define what the “Church” is …

It is the ‘writings’ [NT] from a body of believers that introduce us to Jesus … we have the hebrew writings [OT] and the New Testament … this faith [and all the teachings that come from this faith community] through the ages is how the 21st person lerns of Jesus … now a few may come to ‘know’ Jesus purely and independently by picking up a “Bible” and reading it … they are still dependent upon the faith community who brought the scriptures into being and handed it down …

Most will recieve the written word after the Christian “Witness” …

So if the beliefs held true become “Un - Truths” then the foundation of our belief in Jesus has to feel the result …

Now, historically, the beliefs about Mary were solidified as the early Church defined the God-Man Jesus …

For example: Mary, the Mother of God [Theotokos] was the direct result the church’s wrestling with those who believed that Jesus was only and solely a Man and NOT God … the Church authoritatively defined Jesus as being fully human and fully divine … Mary and her role in Salvation history was part of this discussion and out of that discussion Mary was rightfully understood and considered to be [and hold] the title Mother of God …

That said - if now she is not the Mother of God … then perhaps Jesus does not have two natures and is not God …

Therefore, if the Church begins to change its teachings on Mary then all manner of belief in Jesus can change, what is considered scriptural can change and all authority is out the window …

And as a point of fact … this is what protestantism has wrought … all of the initial reformers believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary … but they began a deconstruction of the church and christian belief…

now christianity does not:

Mary was not always a virgin or not, immaculately concieved or not … the Mother of other children or not … in fact … there are some who now say Mary was just a young girl [not a virgin] and some ministers have put forth that Jesus was the result of a rape by a roman soldier upon Mary NOT the Holy Spirit!

The resurrection was the result of mass hysteria … or real …

Some do not hold the necessity of baptism … what constitutes the scriptures … Communion … real, symbolic or something in between … Marriage … a sacrament or not …

Sins forgiven [past, present and future] no chance at losing salvation or not and various beliefs in between …

Apostolic succession of presbytors or any self declared pastor …

Etc, etc … There is no end …
 
2ndGen said:
Plus, the only thing that Judas found was “the end of a rope”.
Click to expand...
Seems like the phrase “Better for him had he never been born” comes to mind…certainly not one to build a Church on.
 
church father’s teachings on Mary:
Mary the Mother of God

Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:

"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God … It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."1

Perpetual Virginity

Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary’s perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was “born of a woman” alone.

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."2

The Immaculate Conception

Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary’s divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:

"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin…"3

Assumption

Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:

"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."4

Honor to Mary

Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.

"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."5

"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent’s head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing.

=============================================
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."7

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ."8 Calvin translated “brothers” in this context to mean cousins or relatives.

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."9

"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."10

=============================================
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."11

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."12

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."13

"Christ … was born of a most undefiled Virgin."14

"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."15

“The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow.”
 
2ndGen said:
church father’s teachings on Mary:
Mary the Mother of God

Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:

"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God … It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."1

Perpetual Virginity

Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary’s perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was “born of a woman” alone.

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."2

The Immaculate Conception

Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary’s divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:

"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin…"3

Assumption

Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:

"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."4

Honor to Mary

Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.

"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."5

"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent’s head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing.

=============================================
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."7

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ."8 Calvin translated “brothers” in this context to mean cousins or relatives.

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."9

"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."10

=============================================
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."11

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."12

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."13

"Christ … was born of a most undefiled Virgin."14

"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."15

“The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow.”
Click to expand...
Oh, I’m sorry…that was a little “vague” of me.

I meant The Protestant church fathers!
  1. Martin Luther
  2. John Calvin
  3. Ulrich Zwingli
mariology.com/sections/reformers.html
 
Namesake said:
You all have a corner on that market, telling others what they must believe.
Click to expand...
No, we don’t. We accept the Church’s teachings. You are free to believe whatever you like.

You, however, asked us, so we give you the truth. Whether you like it or not doesn’t really matter.
 
sodak said:
No, we don’t. We accept the Church’s teachings. You are free to believe whatever you like.

You, however, asked us, so we give you the truth. Whether you like it or not doesn’t really matter.
Click to expand...
We don’t run into people’s homes and put a gun to their head and force them to go to Mass.

IIf you think that Protestants dont’ have anybody telling them what to do, you have it all wrong…all churches have people that tell them what to do…their called “pastors”.
 
Namesake said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark a
You are overreaching a bit.

Catholics don’t know all the truth. But whatever is declared by the Church to be truth is in fact true.

I don’t believe that. The church isn’t always right. Golly, don’t you ever get tired of letting an organization of people determine what you must believe? That isn’t much of a life in my opinion.
Click to expand...
How is this not simply “enviousness”?

Name, do YOU “absolutely know the truth” about the fact that “no human-containing organization can determine the real truth”?

You seem to be making that statement as an “infallible truth”! If you truly believe that, then you are stating that you can’t believe yourself, as you are a “human-containing organization”.

If you DON’T truly believe that, then you can’t honestly make the statement that it isn’t possible that the Church can determine the real truth!

All you have to do to utterly destroy your vast conspiratorial enemy, the Church (Catholic), is to find ONE, JUST ONE truth (dogma) of the Church that is untrue!

Instead of making utterly illogical and/or self-contradictory statements, why not simply find one simple error in the Church.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top