If Jesus came again in the flesh, would this be reincarnation?

[runningdude]

Hi Tester - this is exactly what I am struggling with. I agree that the Creator of the universe exists outside the causal realm and independently of it. An all-pervasive consciousness that is without beginning or end. My question is this being the case, what need has He for a human body that is specially adapted to life on a planet that has only been around for a short time in comparison with eternity and will only be around a short time longer on the same scale. It follows then that I would wonder what need we would have for these bodies after that point as well. A human body is made up of mostly organs that are of no use whatsoever outside of it’s planetary habitat for which it was designed, and this is a very specific habitat. For instance, in a heavenly realm, what use is there for a stomach, a pancreas, a liver, a heart, lungs and so forth, if the habitat that they were developed to operate in was gone? Without use for the organs, that what use is there for the skeletal system and outer layers of skin that keep them together? Putting our use for them aside, what use would a completely free immortal soul have for the bonds of a cage? This is what I struggle to understand, believe or even find appealing to the intellect. I am being very honest about this.

Your friend
Sufjon

I believe your logic is sound, and I understand why its hard to understand. Us Christians don’t fully understand it either .

I believe the most important reason the body is preserved in the resurrection is to be a sign that death is truly conquered. If Christ came back as a Ghost, the disciples would be afraid again, as they were on the boat during the storm in sea of Galleli.

Christ’s risen body is glorified though, which is ghost-like. He could wisp His way in and out of locked rooms. But His risen body also bares the scars of His crucifixion to prove to His disciples His identity. He could furthermore eat and drink, and importantly for Christians, break the bread. Ghost’s don’t eat, as they have no stomachs, livers, etc to digest the food!

Christian scripture and tradition speak of the current heaven and earth “passing away” and ceasing to exist, and a new world being created in its place. I believe this means that the universe as we know it will day cease to exist. Perhaps this “New Jerusalem”, as it is described in the Book of Revelation, will be more hospitalitable to humanity?

Its something we Christians struggle to understand as well

 

[benidict]

Thanks Benedict - that makes pretty good sense. Kabbalistic thought is very close in many ways to what I know, but it’s a bit more nuanced than mainstream Christian thought from what I can tell. I am trying to dig into mainstream Christian thought, but after several years of studying it, I am finally coming to some conclusions.

Thanks again for your help!

Your friend
Sufjon

hi sufjon. glad i could be of some help. are you of one of the more mystical traditons yourself? from what i understand, there are some very similar thought patterns between the Kabbalist practioners and the Sufie pi ractioners. not to mention the siehks from india. i studied Kabbala long before i became a Catholic, and continue to study. one thing i found really strange after my conversion, is how so much of this tradition has been part of Catholicism for millinea. i found out my priest also studies this. we both agree though that it is safer if you take it more as an intellectual exercise, than actually putting some of the deeper meditation practices into play. some are relatively safe. but ascending the spheres? ill leave that to more learned men than myself. i get enough from the rosary, the Chaplet of divine mercy, the psalms, and First Friday Adoration. the First Friday Adoration is where i have had some very intense encounters with the risen Christ. He truly is present with us. Peace and prayers for you and yours.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Hi Tester - this is exactly what I am struggling with. I agree that the Creator of the universe exists outside the causal realm and independently of it. An all-pervasive consciousness that is without beginning or end. My question is this being the case, what need has He for a human body that is specially adapted to life on a planet that has only been around for a short time in comparison with eternity and will only be around a short time longer on the same scale. It follows then that I would wonder what need we would have for these bodies after that point as well. A human body is made up of mostly organs that are of no use whatsoever outside of it’s planetary habitat for which it was designed, and this is a very specific habitat. For instance, in a heavenly realm, what use is there for a stomach, a pancreas, a liver, a heart, lungs and so forth, if the habitat that they were developed to operate in was gone? Without use for the organs, that what use is there for the skeletal system and outer layers of skin that keep them together? Putting our use for them aside, what use would a completely free immortal soul have for the bonds of a cage? This is what I struggle to understand, believe or even find appealing to the intellect. I am being very honest about this.

Your friend
Sufjon

Jesus is the creator God, right? He created Adam and Eve in the image and likeness of God. Man however sinned and it is God’s plan to bring man back to the state that He was in before the fall. He of coarse did that through the sacrifice of Jesus. This plan has not however reached full fruition. This will happen only after Jesus return and sin is eliminated forever. At this time God will set up His headquarters here on earth and will live with men.

Revelation 21
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[LilyM]

It’s pretty simple. The angel at the Ascension said to the Apostles “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up toward heaven? This same Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you saw him go up into heaven.”

Two points -
a) He will be THE SAME JESUS. Someone who has a different body, as He would if reincarnated, is not THE SAME.
b) He will ‘come back in the same way you saw Him go up’. To me that also means in the same body - someone who comes in a different body surely comes a different way.

 

[Sufjon]

I believe your logic is sound, and I understand why its hard to understand. Us Christians don’t fully understand it either .

I believe the most important reason the body is preserved in the resurrection is to be a sign that death is truly conquered. If Christ came back as a Ghost, the disciples would be afraid again, as they were on the boat during the storm in sea of Galleli.

Christ’s risen body is glorified though, which is ghost-like. He could wisp His way in and out of locked rooms. But His risen body also bares the scars of His crucifixion to prove to His disciples His identity. He could furthermore eat and drink, and importantly for Christians, break the bread. Ghost’s don’t eat, as they have no stomachs, livers, etc to digest the food!

Christian scripture and tradition speak of the current heaven and earth “passing away” and ceasing to exist, and a new world being created in its place. I believe this means that the universe as we know it will day cease to exist. Perhaps this “New Jerusalem”, as it is described in the Book of Revelation, will be more hospitalitable to humanity?

Its something we Christians struggle to understand as well

Thanks Runningdude: I guess I was hoping that there was some theory on it, but at least I’m not alone

THanks again as usual!

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[tester]

Christ’s risen body is glorified though, which is ghost-like. He could wisp His way in and out of locked rooms. … \QUOTE]

 

[tester]

…
Christ’s risen body is glorified though, which is ghost-like. He could wisp His way in and out of locked rooms…

No, Christ’s abilty to " wisp His way in and out of locked rooms" comes from His Diety not from the nature of His glorified body:

the same reason Christ could walk on water.

This is the doctrine known as the Communication of the Properties. This is the teaching that in the one person of Christ there are two natures and that each of the two natures has attributes. Furthermore, it states that those attributes of each nature are ascribed to the single person of Jesus. Therefore, we say that the man Jesus, who is also divine, can “claim” the attributes of divinity. Likewise, the attributes of humanity are “claimed” (ascribed) to Jesus as well.

To summarize, Jesus’ human nature is not omnipresent. But, his divine nature is. However, it is the one person of Christ who shares both natures (communicatio idiomatum) and it is the one person who is omnipresent.

 

[Sufjon]

hi sufjon. glad i could be of some help. are you of one of the more mystical traditons yourself? from what i understand, there are some very similar thought patterns between the Kabbalist practioners and the Sufie pi ractioners. not to mention the siehks from india. i studied Kabbala long before i became a Catholic, and continue to study. one thing i found really strange after my conversion, is how so much of this tradition has been part of Catholicism for millinea. i found out my priest also studies this. we both agree though that it is safer if you take it more as an intellectual exercise, than actually putting some of the deeper meditation practices into play. some are relatively safe. but ascending the spheres? ill leave that to more learned men than myself. i get enough from the rosary, the Chaplet of divine mercy, the psalms, and First Friday Adoration. the First Friday Adoration is where i have had some very intense encounters with the risen Christ. He truly is present with us. Peace and prayers for you and yours.

Hi Benedict: Yes, I do belong to a mystical tradition, which is why the things you said make sense to me. In my faith they say that Christianity is very much the same as ours. I spent a number of years studying those confluences between my faith and yours, but that was under the guidance of teachers from my faith comparing your scriptures with ours. It all looked to match. Then I got out and started talking to Christians and it didn’t match anymore. Every now and then I run into someone like yourself and the priest you are working with and they match again. I have met Catholic priests who had the same understandings, but I’m not under the impression that it’s mainstream thinking for Christians. So I continue to sort that out, and I’m glad to have met you!

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[benidict]

Hi Benedict: Yes, I do belong to a mystical tradition, which is why the things you said make sense to me. In my faith they say that Christianity is very much the same as ours. I spent a number of years studying those confluences between my faith and yours, but that was under the guidance of teachers from my faith comparing your scriptures with ours. It all looked to match. Then I got out and started talking to Christians and it didn’t match anymore. Every now and then I run into someone like yourself and the priest you are working with and they match again. I have met Catholic priests who had the same understandings, but I’m not under the impression that it’s mainstream thinking for Christians. So I continue to sort that out, and I’m glad to have met you!

Your friend
Sufjon

:tiphat: yes, we are a rare breed! you are correct. not too many Christians are aware of their more mystical heritage that we inheireted from our Jewish bretheren. the orthodox Jews have a point in their prayer called the Amida, if im not mistaken. this is recited silently. when you see one of these fine folk swaying. they are generally in a state of heavy meditation. you will even run into some protestants that practice some of these techniques too. tho they are even fewer, because such practices are frowned upon. many are more interested in the letter than the Spirit. i have to fight this temptation too, with a baptist background. i consider myself a recovering fundamentalist. lol! nice to have met you too! peace and prayers for you.

 

[runningdude]

No, Christ’s abilty to " wisp His way in and out of locked rooms" comes from His Diety not from the nature of His glorified body:

the same reason Christ could walk on water.

This is the doctrine known as the Communication of the Properties. This is the teaching that in the one person of Christ there are two natures and that each of the two natures has attributes. Furthermore, it states that those attributes of each nature are ascribed to the single person of Jesus. Therefore, we say that the man Jesus, who is also divine, can “claim” the attributes of divinity. Likewise, the attributes of humanity are “claimed” (ascribed) to Jesus as well.

To summarize, Jesus’ human nature is not omnipresent. But, his divine nature is. However, it is the one person of Christ who shares both natures (communicatio idiomatum) and it is the one person who is omnipresent.

But my point is that Christ is alive, not a ghost. To summarize Christ is truly alive, both in Human and Divine form!

 

[benidict]

But my point is that Christ is alive, not a ghost. To summarize Christ is truly alive, both in Human and Divine form!

exactly! which is why he could have some fish with his apostles.

 

[AnIrishLutheran]

“If Jesus came again in the flesh, would this be reincarnation?”

Jesus will come again in the flesh, and it will definitely not be reincarnation.

After all, he was never “unincarnate” after his conception, so “reincarnation” would be, well, difficult.

 

[Sufjon]

“If Jesus came again in the flesh, would this be reincarnation?”

Jesus will come again in the flesh, and it will definitely not be reincarnation.

That is another interesting difference that I see when I get out and talk to Christians, which is the idea of a return in flesh. Has anyone considered or heard of the idea that the second coming is a different time for each person? It is a very common belief in the east among mystics, but I seldom hear it in the west. Specifically what I’m talking about is the second coming being the point at which each person awakens the Christ within themselves. It’s a lot of hard work - much harder than being good and waiting for Jesus to come back. You have to awaken Him in yourself through your own hard work (constant prayer, meditation, devotions, ect) and that being the second coming. We believe that you have to do a lot of hard work to make that happen, but it’s an event that each person has to make happen for themselves. No trumpets and carnage - just an awakening and realization of what you really are. Nobody gets vindicated and no one gets their wrongness rubbed in their face. Just a realization that happens one by one. Now I am not telling you that is what you should believe, but I am wondering if anyone is familiar with it, because that is the understanding for millions of people in the east, and I am always very surprised that I seldom hear it in the west unless it’s from a theologian or bible scholar. It does not seem in any way mainstream. Just curious if anyone has heard of it.

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[Richard_Kastner]

That is another interesting difference that I see when I get out and talk to Christians, which is the idea of a return in flesh. Has anyone considered or heard of the idea that the second coming is a different time for each person? It is a very common belief in the east among mystics, but I seldom hear it in the west. Specifically what I’m talking about is the second coming being the point at which each person awakens the Christ within themselves. It’s a lot of hard work - much harder than being good and waiting for Jesus to come back. You have to awaken Him in yourself through your own hard work (constant prayer, meditation, devotions, ect) and that being the second coming. We believe that you have to do a lot of hard work to make that happen, but it’s an event that each person has to make happen for themselves. No trumpets and carnage - just an awakening and realization of what you really are. Nobody gets vindicated and no one gets their wrongness rubbed in their face. Just a realization that happens one by one. Now I am not telling you that is what you should believe, but I am wondering if anyone is familiar with it, because that is the understanding for millions of people in the east, and I am always very surprised that I seldom hear it in the west unless it’s from a theologian or bible scholar. It does not seem in any way mainstream. Just curious if anyone has heard of it.

Your friend,
Sufjon

The salvation bought FOR us on calvary is a gift. Jn.3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

YOU CAN’T EARN A GIFT.

 

[Sufjon]

The salvation bought FOR us on calvary is a gift. Jn.3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

YOU CAN’T EARN A GIFT.

Hi Richard: It looks to me like He is saying in this passage that you posted that He gave His son to be among us, and yes that is a gift. Now to get that salvation that He offered, I think most denominations believe that you have to take some action to actually obtain that salvation. For instance, you can’t rob banks and injure people, never repent and partake in that gift, right? So, it looks to me like you have to earn the gift of salvation. The gift of His presence among us, that was free, and that is all the passage looks to me to have said. To be free from the sin and sufferings of this world, I would still say is yours and my responsibility and Jesus isn’t doing that for you. Help you, yes. Do it for you, no. There is work for us to do. Did I get that wrong, or is it a venture that you must willingly participate in? I simply said that you have to do your part. I think the only part where we might differ is exactly what our part in that venture is. I don’t think you can simply go to Church, follow commandments, take sacraments (if you belong to a church that has them), and make it to where you are trying to get. You can do those things and I think they will help you, but that is only a fraction of the work (in my belief that is).

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Hi Richard: It looks to me like He is saying in this passage that you posted that He gave His son to be among us, and yes that is a gift. Now to get that salvation that He offered, I think most denominations believe that you have to take some action to actually obtain that salvation. For instance, you can’t rob banks and injure people, never repent and partake in that gift, right? So, it looks to me like you have to earn the gift of salvation. The gift of His presence among us, that was free, and that is all the passage looks to me to have said. To be free from the sin and sufferings of this world, I would still say is yours and my responsibility and Jesus isn’t doing that for you. Help you, yes. Do it for you, no. There is work for us to do. Did I get that wrong, or is it a venture that you must willingly participate in? I simply said that you have to do your part. I think the only part where we might differ is exactly what our part in that venture is. I don’t think you can simply go to Church, follow commandments, take sacraments (if you belong to a church that has them), and make it to where you are trying to get. You can do those things and I think they will help you, but that is only a fraction of the work (in my belief that is).

Your friend,
Sufjon

So you think that Jn. 3:16 says that the gift is Immanuel or God with us. Well that is a gift, but that is not what Jn.3:16 is saying. The way I see it a gift has two parts. God the Father gives us the gift of His Son, but in order for that gift to have any relavance in our lives that gift must be accepted. Now the acceptance of the gift of salvation is done in faith “whoever believes” and faith has certain implications attached to it one being love.
1Jn.4:15Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

19We love him, because he first loved us.

All these other things that you mentioned, going to church, keeping the commandments, etc. do not in any way save you. It is by His sacrifice and that alone that we are saved. Now that’s not to say that those things are not important, they are. But we do them as a result of our being saved. as a result of our love for the Lord, not in order to be saved.

 

[benidict]

the book of James sums it up nicely Sufjon. “faith without works is dead. show me your faith without works, and i will show you my faith by my works.” it is a gift yes, but it cost someone everything to obtain it for us. the least we can do, is pratice obedience and charity. and obedience is this. that we love God with all our heart soul and mind, and love our neighbor as ourselves. in so doing we are obedient to Christ. Peace

 

[benidict]

Hi Richard: It looks to me like He is saying in this passage that you posted that He gave His son to be among us, and yes that is a gift. Now to get that salvation that He offered, I think most denominations believe that you have to take some action to actually obtain that salvation. For instance, you can’t rob banks and injure people, never repent and partake in that gift, right? So, it looks to me like you have to earn the gift of salvation. The gift of His presence among us, that was free, and that is all the passage looks to me to have said. To be free from the sin and sufferings of this world, I would still say is yours and my responsibility and Jesus isn’t doing that for you. Help you, yes. Do it for you, no. There is work for us to do. Did I get that wrong, or is it a venture that you must willingly participate in? I simply said that you have to do your part. I think the only part where we might differ is exactly what our part in that venture is. I don’t think you can simply go to Church, follow commandments, take sacraments (if you belong to a church that has them), and make it to where you are trying to get. You can do those things and I think they will help you, but that is only a fraction of the work (in my belief that is).

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[Richard_Kastner]

So, it looks to me like you have to earn the gift of salvation.

One more very important thing Sufjon. If we earn salvation, salvation becomes something that is owed to us and if it is owed to us, if we can earn it, then it is no longer a gift and it makes Christ’s sacrifice irrelevant. So, my advice would be to accept the gift.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Stay on topic please