If Jesus came again in the flesh, would this be reincarnation?

[miodrag1963]

the Creator of the universe exists outside of the universe.

Please define ‘universe’.
If universe is “all that exist”, then Creator does not exist outside of the universe. Next, original question was not answered - what about a physical body? Let’s assume universe “rests” on Creator - He is neither in or out. So we make that issue irrelevant. Question was: where is the physical body of Christ; is it inside or outside the universe - that is what is relevant, and unanswered so far. I am also puzzled by this and would like to hear the official version. I may have a personal opinion or two, but the foundation for any serious consideration is what the Church says. So, please, no personal opinions. Church says that Christ’s body is in the Church. Well, seems like Church is answering a wrong question. I am not interested about the mystery of Eucharist here, I would just like to know about soul, physical body, Heaven and Hell, since this is fundamental for understanding the concept of salvation. And this fundamental issue seems to be totally neglected by dogma. There may be only a general opinion - that answer to this question remains a mystery. But can I at least hold that as the official version - that Church has nothing to say about it, since it is a mystery nor it was revealed.

you can’t take a spaceship to heaven

Does this mean that you can’t take a physical body to Heaven? If so, then how Christ made it? If He made it because He is God, then through prayer we can also make it possible. Seems like Eliah made it, though he was not God. The case of Eliah proves that by Grace everything is possible, even a spaceship to heaven. Again, can someone please provide Church clarification on these matters, if any; personal opinions do not help much here…

 

[magic_stick]

this thread makes you wonder when he is coming back. Though I know only god knows. Didn’t he say he would soon come back? Is it true that in the bible, a day in heaven is a thousand years on earth? So maybe he is going by that time frame? Just makes me wonder.

 

[kildare]

My understanding is that Jesus Floated up to heaven with His body and that all people who are saved will have their resurrected physical bodies back.

while I’m not sure what happened to Jesus physical body after the ascension (and being God I suppose anything is possible), we know that our own bodies decay into dust after death. But as Christians we believe in the resurrection of the body - so how does that occur?
Well, I’ve heard an idea from the British Physicist John Polkinghorne, that perhaps like software can be downloaded onto any PC, in the general resurrection, the DNA of the dead could simply be re-materialized. The key is that its not the matter but the information. And at a quantum level, what is matter but condensed energy (could be reduced to information as well)??
Our material existence is literally just Data that obeys Laws! And what is Law…you know what I mean. Its not dependent on material things, like dust!

So really Jesus the man is unique, has one mother (Mary) and can be re-materialized or re-incarnated, but not born again. Well He could be born again if He wanted, but I think that goes against the divine plan, the divine justice and the divine love, so it wont happen.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

Saint Paul tells us that one day, all of humanity that died in Christ will also be resurrected.

I’ve often thought about that and on’t quite follow what he means. Does he mean that all souls that are presently in Heaven will come back to Earth and re-assume their bodies? Or does he mean they will be resurrected in Heaven and stay there? And in the lattercase, what are they doing in the meantime? And what will it mean when they re-assume their bodies. Most were probably quite old and ill before they died so returning to those bodies would make them frail and weak, so some large scale healing would have to occur and in that case can you really say it is the same body. Jesus after his resurrection had the same unrepaired body that was taken from the cross as the wounds were still in his side and in his hands and feet and I guess he must have had a number of broken ribs and other nasty hurts too fro the torture they put him through in the passion. If you or I tried to walk around like that, the wounds would cause a lot of hurt and we’d not be fully functional, in fact we’d probably die. So were those wounds real? Thomas tested them and decided they were. But Jesus wasn’t walking in agony and neither was he losing blood through what were after all large and ugly wounds. So how was the human side of him coping at that time? I find all this rather difficult to grasp.

 

[runningdude]

I’ve often thought about that and on’t quite follow what he means. Does he mean that all souls that are presently in Heaven will come back to Earth and re-assume their bodies? Or does he mean they will be resurrected in Heaven and stay there? And in the lattercase, what are they doing in the meantime? And what will it mean when they re-assume their bodies. Most were probably quite old and ill before they died so returning to those bodies would make them frail and weak, so some large scale healing would have to occur and in that case can you really say it is the same body. Jesus after his resurrection had the same unrepaired body that was taken from the cross as the wounds were still in his side and in his hands and feet and I guess he must have had a number of broken ribs and other nasty hurts too fro the torture they put him through in the passion. If you or I tried to walk around like that, the wounds would cause a lot of hurt and we’d not be fully functional, in fact we’d probably die. So were those wounds real? Thomas tested them and decided they were. But Jesus wasn’t walking in agony and neither was he losing blood through what were after all large and ugly wounds. So how was the human side of him coping at that time? I find all this rather difficult to grasp.

I caution all that I’m crossing purely into the realm of speculation here. My guess is that just as Christ healed the sick and cured the blind, His Divine Father healed His earthly body. The scars may have been left as a sign to the Apostles, especially Thomas.

I’m pretty sure that when St. Paul speaks of a general resurrection, he means a bodily one just like Jesus’s:

[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 15:12-19[/BIBLEDRB]

I’d highly recommend reading the rest of First Corinthians, Chapter 15 if this topics is of interest. Paul speaks at length about the Resurrection. Elsewhere in the chapter he describes those who are raised as “incorruptible”. This means of course the Lord has to heal the scars of death and decay, (in some cases, putting whole people back together from the dust of the Earth - a la “ashes to ashes, dust to dust”)! Presumably this miraculous resurrection from dust includes undo the infirmities of old age .

As for what the souls in heaven are doing as they await for the resurrection, I can’t say for sure. Human Nature is both spiritual and physical, so a human soul sans body is incomplete. Perhaps Heaven is a waiting place of pure bliss for the souls, while the wait for the resurrection. Hell would then be the where souls go that will not have the resurrection. Again, speculation warning

Without a body, we have no eyes, no ears, no nose. Without these physical senses, I’d image we lead a rather dull existences, unless we were bathed in Christs love. I don’t know if we would able to think or have emotions either.

As for Saints and intersession, maybe the saints we pray to have already enjoyed resurrection, and are no longer bound by time (Big speculation here!). No longer bound by time, they can listen to each and every prayer asked in their name and pass it along to God. With a resurrected body, they’d have the ears to do so, and the eyes fully opened to the Lord, that they may make these prayers face to face.

Anyways these are my guesses, with some of the scripture I’ve used to concluded these. Hopefully it offers you something. Please don’t bite!

 

[Sufjon]

Well, I’ve heard an idea from the British Physicist John Polkinghorne, that perhaps like software can be downloaded onto any PC, in the general resurrection, the DNA of the dead could simply be re-materialized. The key is that its not the matter but the information. And at a quantum level, what is matter but condensed energy (could be reduced to information as well)??

Hi Kildare: That’s an interesting idea. It easily makes sense to me.

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[ConstantineTG]

If Jesus came back to earth in the flesh for ministry, either as part of the apocalypse or for other reasons, would this be reincarnation if he were born and conceived again? Just curious, thanks.

Jews never believed in reincarnation. Even when they were prophesizing that Elijah would return, they weren’t expecting a reincarnation into John the Baptist (and John still isn’t a reincarnation). They were expecting Elijah to come down from heaven, as he left. Remember he was taken up by a chariot of fire. Same with Jesus, for Him to come again He would come down the same way we see Him lifted up (that part is in scripture).

 

[miodrag1963]

Jews never believed in reincarnation.

Then why do they have terms for reincarnation: Gilgul hanefesh or Gilgul neshamot?
Hasidic Jews believe in reincarnation. Kabbalah teaches that souls of all Jews that would ever exist were present at Mount Sinai when Moses was delivering Torah. Bahir and Zohar advocate reincarnation.
Sadducees have not believed in reincarnation, but both the Pharisees and the Essenes at the time of Jesus believed in reincarnation, as documented by Josephus:

[The Pharisees] say that all souls are incorruptible; but that the souls of good men are only removed into other bodies; — but that the souls of bad men are subject to eternal punishment. Wars of the Jews II.Viii.14

Some people think that Josephus was talking about resurrection here. But a growing number of people think different, for example in his “The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment” Thomas B. Thayer says:

In the apocryphal Book of Wisdom, written perhaps from fifty to ninety years before Christ, by an Egyptian Jew, we have the following: “I was a witty child, and had a good spirit. Yea, rather, being good, I came into a body undefiled.” Chapter viii 19, 20

Seems like Jews were pretty familiar with reincarnation at the time of Jesus. Even the very question “who sinned, this man or his parents” was a provocation, it proves that those who asked were quite aware of the concept of reincarnation.