I beg to differ (that it was a call to His table, to eat Him). If the folks had believed (or left), the discourse would have stopped right there, without any mentioning of eating Him.Why would he continue to a "deeper level’ if they were unbelievers ?Yes. I think the deeper necessity to “eat” His sacramental Body and Blood is that our belief lacks perfection. We all believe, but have various levels of belief.
And this is evident in the fact that we even need Christian leaders at all, and that we, unfortunately, have divisions.
There is “one bread” as the Apostle Teaches. What constitutes this “one bread”?
It is also a participation in the sacrifice at the altar! This is not metaphorical language, but more like direct contact and reception of Him.
So in this encounter with two of the twelve, what is Jesus talking about with “Baptism” and “the Cup”?I beg to differ (that it was a call to His table, to eat Him). If the folks had believed (or left), the discourse would have stopped right there, without any mentioning of eating Him.Why would he continue to a "deeper level’ if they were unbelievers ?
I think He was talking about His death, and of course the apostles were alos martyred. He certainly did not mean water baptism.So in this encounter with two of the twelve, what is Jesus talking about with “Baptism” and “the Cup”?
And James and John, the sons of Zeb′edee, came forward to him, and said to him, “Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you.”36And he said to them, “What do you want me to do for you?”37And they said to him, “Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory.”38But Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?”39And they said to him, “We are able.” And Jesus said to them, “The cup that I drink you will drink; and with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized;40but to sit at my right hand or at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared.”*
This passage raises questions. We’re the 12 Baptized at all (other than John’s Baptism)?I think He was talking about His death, and of course the apostles were alos martyred. He certainly did not mean water baptism.
Right, John was absolutely the only one not martyredThis passage raises questions. We’re the 12 Baptized at all (other than John’s Baptism)?
Jesus may have referred to their Baptism at the washing of their feet.
Then he poured water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel with which he was girded.6He came to Simon Peter; and Peter said to him, “Lord, do you wash my feet?”7Jesus answered him, “What I am doing you do not know now, but afterward you will understand.”8Peter said to him, “You shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part in me.”9Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!”10Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but he is clean all over; and you are clean, but not all of you.”11For he knew who was to betray him; that was why he said, “You are not all clean.”
Also, I’m not sure that John was martyred. And is that what you interpret as “my Baptism” or “the Cup”?
I think that Jesus tries to say they are unable to accomplish what these require, but after Jesus accomplishes them, He will freely give them through Baptism and His Eucharist.
They had belief to receive, but not belief to accomplish the work which God demanded of the messiah. But through the work of the messiah, all who believe are freely offered His merits.
So Jesus asks if they are able, but then says yes you will receive because I have done the work for you. But to each is given their own crosses to bear. And continuing in receiving His Eucharist means doing so with a pure conscience. So that what we do in Him is acceptable to God, and of course so we are able to do good works in Him.
Jesus also gives them the Spirit by breathing on them. This is for the Sacrament of Reconciliation. This may be what Christ’s Baptism was. When Jesus received Baptism from John, He accepted sin on Himself, since He was without sin. These are my thoughts.
Yes, I look it as the “washing of regeneration” , the “washing by His word”, and the Lord is incarnate Logos. (Pauline phrases).Then he poured water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel with which he was girded.6He came to Simon Peter; and Peter said to him, “Lord, do you wash my feet?”7Jesus answered him, “What I am doing you do not know now, but afterward you will understand.”8Peter said to him, “You shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part in me.”9Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!”10Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but he is clean all over; and you are clean, but not all of you.”11For he knew who was to betray him; that was why he said, “You are not all clean.”
Also, here is another example of Jesus Teaching that to refuse His participation with us (which was the washing of His Apostles feet with water in this situation) then we have no part in Him!
This sounds extreme! But there is fundamental rejection of Him and His life in us when we do not submit to His work. Of course there is symbolic meaning of this as well as in Baptism and Holy Communion. But there is still the reality of actual participation and reception of Him and His Spirit and life!
i think they believed and partly did,as they ministered for three years. What really enabled them was the gift and power of HG on Pentecost, like day and night. But they did have “life” before that and even some success(and failures).This passage raises questions. We’re the 12 Baptized at all (other than John’s Baptism)?
Jesus may have referred to their Baptism at the washing of their feet.
Then he poured water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel with which he was girded.6He came to Simon Peter; and Peter said to him, “Lord, do you wash my feet?”7Jesus answered him, “What I am doing you do not know now, but afterward you will understand.”8Peter said to him, “You shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part in me.”9Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!”10Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but he is clean all over; and you are clean, but not all of you.”11For he knew who was to betray him; that was why he said, “You are not all clean.”
Also, I’m not sure that John was martyred. And is that what you interpret as “my Baptism” or “the Cup”?
I think that Jesus tries to say they are unable to accomplish what these require, but after Jesus accomplishes them, He will freely give them through Baptism and His Eucharist.
They had belief to receive, but not belief to accomplish the work which God demanded of the messiah. But through the work of the messiah, all who believe are freely offered His merits.
So Jesus asks if they are able, but then says yes you will receive because I have done the work for you. But to each is given their own crosses to bear. And continuing in receiving His Eucharist means doing so with a pure conscience. So that what we do in Him is acceptable to God, and of course so we are able to do good works in Him.
Jesus also gives them the Spirit by breathing on them. This is for the Sacrament of Reconciliation. This may be what Christ’s Baptism was. When Jesus received Baptism from John, He accepted sin on Himself, since He was without sin. These are my thoughts.
I think I would agree with you here. I believe in a mystical connection with the symbolic, along with the spiritual, meanings of the Sacraments.Right, John was absolutely the only one not martyred
I was listening to hermeneutic types,interpretation styles, and they would have said you were using "mystical’’ style of interpretation. That is, it is not the literary, primary meaning. Especially in one of your posts talking of the boat and the twelve loaves etc.
Blessings.
Yes, it gets “mystical” in understanding the ministry given to the 12, then after Pentacost to all through the ministry of the 12.i think they believed and partly did,as they ministered for three years. What really enabled them was the gift and power of HG on Pentecost, like day and night. But they did have “life” before that and even some success(and failures).
SLOW DOWN THERE my friend;=benhur;13271196]i think they believed and partly did,as they ministered for three years. What really enabled them was the gift and power of HG on Pentecost, like day and night. But they did have “life” before that and even some success(and failures).
Ben was responding to my assertion that even His Apostles lacked much belief. They had faith and belief, but all fall short of Him and His faithfullness. After Jesus ascended, He gave the Sacraments and the Spirit with them. They had the full conviction of all that He did. Then they had boldness and great faith. This was His design.SLOW DOWN THERE my friend;
This is the belief that all of the Apostles and a GREAT many died for; there was no lack of belief.
Yes and the enemy always desired men to receive unworthily. And eventually break the one loaf into pieces and nations, aka denomiNATIONS.Further the VERY early Church accepted and LIVED obediently Christ COMMAND to “Do THIS in memory of me” which both Luke and Paul Testify to.
The first “expression” for the Most Holy Eucharist; Catholic Holy Communion was “the Breaking of the Bread”
Luke 24:35
And they told what things were done in the way; and how they knew him in the breaking of the bread.
Great quotes. I’d remind that the Road to Emmaus story records the Disciples as receiving His Eucharist, then having their eyes opened to Him. This was probably the first Eucharistic miracle!Acts Of Apostles 2:42
And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of bread, and in prayers.
=rcwitness;13270230]This passage raises questions. We’re the 12 Baptized at all (other than John’s Baptism)?
Jesus may have referred to their Baptism at the washing of their feet.
Then he poured water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel with which he was girded.6He came to Simon Peter; and Peter said to him, “Lord, do you wash my feet?”7Jesus answered him, “What I am doing you do not know now, but afterward you will understand.”8Peter said to him, “You shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part in me.”9Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!”10Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but he is clean all over; and you are clean, but not all of you.”11For he knew who was to betray him; that was why he said, “You are not all clean.”
Also, I’m not sure that John was martyred. And is that what you interpret as “my Baptism” or “the Cup”?
I think that Jesus tries to say they are unable to accomplish what these require, but after Jesus accomplishes them, He will freely give them through Baptism and His Eucharist.
They had belief to receive, but not belief to accomplish the work which God demanded of the messiah. But through the work of the messiah, all who believe are freely offered His merits.
So Jesus asks if they are able, but then says yes you will receive because I have done the work for you. But to each is given their own crosses to bear. And continuing in receiving His Eucharist means doing so with a pure conscience. So that what we do in Him is acceptable to God, and of course so we are able to do good works in Him.
EXCELLENT RPLY:thumbsup:Jesus also gives them the Spirit by breathing on them. This is for the Sacrament of Reconciliation. This may be what Christ’s Baptism was. When Jesus received Baptism from John, He accepted sin on Himself, since He was without sin. These are my thoughts.
=rcwitness;13272464]Ben was responding to my assertion that even His Apostles lacked much belief. They had faith and belief, but all fall short of Him and His faithfullness. After Jesus ascended, He gave the Sacraments and the Spirit with them. They had the full conviction of all that He did. Then they had boldness and great faith. This was His design.
Yes and the enemy always desired men to receive unworthily. And eventually break the one loaf into pieces and nations, aka denomiNATIONS.
Great quotes. I’d remind that the Road to Emmaus story records the Disciples as receiving His Eucharist, then having their eyes opened to Him. This was probably the first Eucharistic miracle!
Nicely done; thanks again,But the true beauty of His Eucharist is that there is no evidence of a miracle. It is a perpetual belief in Him being given to us through His Holy Spirit. We always express faith in His work and conviction through His Holy Communion.
The Gospels don’t actually say for sure, but the Apostles certainly seemed to have changed their method of Baptizing, after Pentecost.This passage raises questions. We’re the 12 Baptized at all (other than John’s Baptism)?
I think this act of Jesus is part of the reason for the changes made in their Baptisms, but I think it’s much more than that. I believe this passage actually ties to three different Sacraments, that are all related to each other.Jesus may have referred to their Baptism at the washing of their feet.
Then he poured water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel with which he was girded.6He came to Simon Peter; and Peter said to him, “Lord, do you wash my feet?”7Jesus answered him, “What I am doing you do not know now, but afterward you will understand.”8Peter said to him, “You shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part in me.”9Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!”10Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but he is clean all over; and you are clean, but not all of you.”11For he knew who was to betray him; that was why he said, “You are not all clean.”
=Telstar;13275180]The Gospels don’t actually say for sure, but the Apostles certainly seemed to have changed their method of Baptizing, after Pentecost.
I think this act of Jesus is part of the reason for the changes made in their Baptisms, but I think it’s much more than that. I believe this passage actually ties to three different Sacraments, that are all related to each other.
First, I believe it was the means by which Jesus conferred His ‘new’ type of Baptism on them, by finishing what John had started. When He says, (DRV) “He that is washed, needeth not but to wash his feet, but is clean wholly. And you are clean, but not all.”, I believe means that they were not “all” clean as a reference to Judas, but also because they were already Baptized, so their sins had been washed away at that time. However, since the time they were Baptized, they had probably committed other sins that He knew about, so Jesus was also washing them away, which was symbolized by the washing of the feet.
IMHO, for that reason I believe this is also a precursor to the institution of Confession (Reconciliation) that Jesus would confer upon them in the upper room, after His Resurrection, when He said, “John 20: [23] Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.”. This explains why He said, “What I am doing you do not know now, but afterward you will understand.”. It also fits well with Him telling Peter that if He didn’t do it, Peter would have “no part” in Him. Because, if we fail to either acknowledge or confess the serious sins that we commit after our Baptism, then we most certainly can fall away from our faith and lose our salvation.
(I believe this is probably why Judas lost his salvation, because according to John, Judas had already left the upper room before the washing of the feet happened. Perhaps Jesus purposely waited until that time, because He knew that Judas had already committed the unforgivable sin “in his heart”, because his doubt and betrayal of Jesus denied the power and actions of the Holy Spirit, so Jesus could not forgive him. [DISCLAIMER: This part about Judas is just my personal opinion of what it might mean. It is not a teaching of the Church, as far as I know.])
THANKS Lori! Very nicely done:thumbsup:Finally, both of those Sacraments also tie in with the Holy Eucharist in a very profound way. Baptism is what makes us members of His Body (the Church) by washing us clean in His Blood; Confession brings us back into God’s Grace whenever we fall back into sin; and the Holy Eucharist feeds our soul to make us strong in our battle against all the evils of the world. All three of these Sacraments, together, form the firm foundation of our salvation. Even without one of them, we will have a much more difficult time trying to stay faithful to God. They all work together to make and keep us strong.
Pretty good response thank you. I would agree that John 6 can and does refer to future “communion”, as also to Calvary and the Ascension. I would add that primarily that John 6, in literary interpretation, is about figurative "eating "His words, that is believing, as in, faith comes by hearing and that by the drawing/revelation of/from the Father. The apostles had the latter, the departing did not. The goats were separated form the sheep.I think I would agree with you here. I believe in a mystical connection with the symbolic, along with the spiritual, meanings of the Sacraments.
Yes, it gets “mystical” in understanding the ministry given to the 12, then after Pentacost to all through the ministry of the 12.
Jesus established the 12 as a foundational magisterium. We just believe in the living succession of their ministry.
I think the Sacraments must be bound to belief in the Spirit of Christ delivering them. But understanding is not necessary for their effectualness, but the recipients awareness is relent to all that. The apostles had the latter , and the departing did not.
The discourse in John 6 has mystical and real relationship to the Eucharist.
Not sure what you mean . Judas did not believe from the beginning, at least not properly , and it ain’t like horseshoes, where close gets you points.Also, in many of these examples of Jesus’ Teachings and actions, which have ‘continuation’ through the Sacraments, there is an EXTREMELY important reality stressed.
JUDAS and his participation!
He did receive a share in the life of Christ. He did hear the gospel message. He did have fellowship with the others. He did have access to the Lord. He was fed by the Word. He was given powers to heal and cast out demons. He was given life!
And He also ate His Eucharist the night he fulfilled his betrayal.
This poor soul is not alone by any means! Many betray the Lord while hearing, knowing, fellowshipping, participating and eating and drinking at the table of the altar!
Judas stayed with Jesus. But his heart was after darkness.
I believe there is a genuine attempt for many Christians to interpret Jesus differently than the Catholic way to try to avoid the reality of Judas’. But if it did not prevent our Lord from losing Judas, how will an attempt to remove Christ’s grace from His Sacraments keep those who would betray Him?
Fair enough. Agree that we all “Eucharist”- give thanksgiving for Christ and His atoning death until His return.In John 6, Jesus says:
“Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you will not have life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father has sent me and I live because of the Father, so also whoever eats me, the same shall live because of me. This is the bread that descends from heaven. It is not like the manna that your fathers ate, for they died. Whoever eats this bread shall live forever.”
Communion is a participation ordinance identifying followers of Jesus.
We may interpret the above passage differently but we participate in the ordinance perhaps without complete understanding.
Jesus uses metaphor a great deal in his ministry. He calls himself :“the water of life”, “Meat”, " the Morning Star", “the Rock”, “lamb of God”. Perhaps the statement above is metaphor or perhaps it is literal. Either way, we are not canables. We are Christians and Jesus is our Resurrected Lord and Savior.